Are Ontario teachers really going to Strike?

[socialist]

Are you trying to say that something has changed or that poverty has always been with us and it makes teaching more difficult ?

The latter statement is an obvious truism, and the former statement needs some kind of evidence.

The same thing applies to that statement.

http://www.academia.edu/1983021/SPORTS_PARTICIPATION_AND_TEACHERS_JOB_SATISFACTION_AND_BURNOUT_IN_SELECTED_SCHOOLS_IN_METRO_MANILA

[Ash74]

Parents may think the teachers striking is the problem. No, it's the result of chronic underfunding of Ontario education.This is the OSSTF fighting back. Just like how the BCTF fought back. Why? Because we care about the learners in our classrooms. That's why. BC teachers know what we are going through in Ontario. We have solidarity. We got each others' backs.

But just a few short months ago you were praising Wynne and how we were all going to be living in a social program utopia?

Myself and the people from Ontario on this thread told you this was going to happen but you chose to bury your head in the sand.

Wynne has decided that infrastructure is more important than anything else right now

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/behind-numbers/2015/04/ontario-budget-2015-throwing-everything-infrastructure-under-b

She is getting ready to rake in huge money from a cap and trade scheme,hydro rates are about to go up yet again and the provincial pension I am sure will find its way into the general revenue or perhaps invested in transit.

How did you think education would remain untouched?

[socialist]

But just a few short months ago you were praising Wynne and how we were all going to be living in a social program utopia?

Myself and the people from Ontario on this thread told you this was going to happen but you chose to bury your head in the sand.

Wynne has decided that infrastructure is more important than anything else right now

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/behind-numbers/2015/04/ontario-budget-2015-throwing-everything-infrastructure-under-b

She is getting ready to rake in huge money from a cap and trade scheme,hydro rates are about to go up yet again and the provincial pension I am sure will find its way into the general revenue or perhaps invested in transit.

How did you think education would remain untouched?

Because educating the youth is the most important aspect of a healthy democracy.

[Ash74]

Because educating the youth is the most important aspect of a healthy democracy.

But this is not about "educating the youth" this is about teachers pay.

How is teachers getting more money going to help students learn.

(For the record I actually have no problem with teachers getting paid well I just am against them saying it is for any other reason than they want more money)

We in Ontario are about too get hit even harder buying just about anything all in the name of a cap and trade that will do nothing to stop emissions. All of us are going to be a lot poorer this time next year.

Wynne has put us all into a socialist dream and that is shared poverty

Edited April 26, 2015 by Ash74

[socialist]

But this is not about "educating the youth" this is about teachers pay.

How is teachers getting more money going to help students learn.

(For the record I actually have no problem with teachers getting paid well I just am against them saying it is for any other reason than they want more money)

why should teachers who need two degrees, sometimes 3 not be paid fairly? i'm working on my masters and will be done after next year. i will get a pay increase like i deserve for getting a masters degree. Few people have masters degrees. Teachers have a huge responsibility. You won't attract the best and brightest if you don't pay teachers accordingly.

[Ash74]

why should teachers who need two degrees, sometimes 3 not be paid fairly? i'm working on my masters and will be done after next year. i will get a pay increase like i deserve for getting a masters degree. Few people have masters degrees. Teachers have a huge responsibility. You won't attract the best and brightest if you don't pay teachers accordingly.

But that i not what is being toted by the union. They say it is for bargaining rights and better education. Not that they all want a raise.

So off they strike going into the end of the year taking education away from the students and yet you are telling me it is for better education.

Gonna have to give a big ole "NOPE". This is greed.

[jacee]

But that i not what is being toted by the union. They say it is for bargaining rights and better education. Not that they all want a raise.

So off they strike going into the end of the year taking education away from the students and yet you are telling me it is for better education.

Gonna have to give a big ole "NOPE". This is greed.

It's just collective bargaining Ash.

Don't you get raises?

.

Edited April 26, 2015 by jacee

[Ash74]

It's just collective bargaining Ash.

Don't you get raises?

.

Mine are based on performance. I would love to see teachers live with that

[Big Guy]

It seems that the fewer qualifications that one has for a career, the more that individual feels that the career is over paid.

Teachers generally are considered to be well paid, have excellent holidays and belong to a union whose investment philosophy acumen is the envy of wall street.

They also require extensive qualifications to maintain their jobs, generally have the respect of society and have enough leeway to be very good or very bad at their jobs. They also have the same collective bargaining rights as other unionized organizations.

As to the pension plan, when I first became a member its assets were a little more than $1 billion and the Ontario government was trying to take control of it. The government gave up and allowed the plan officials to make their own decisions in the market. The latest report I have seen from the plan is that the current assets are at about $152 billion.

As to teacher performance, anecdotal evidence usually highlights the worst and the best in the profession. Those who treat it as a profession are successful and do an excellent job. Those who look at the clock and calendar usually do a very poor job.

The teachers are homogeneous only in that their job is to educate our children. Politically and philosophically they differ greatly. Some are very much to the left and are active in union and socialist activities. Some are very much to the right, ignore union tendencies and spend some time learning to invest their comfortable incomes. They are a fairly bright group requiring at least two University degrees on the average. That means that most make good decisions with their actions and choices of lifestyle.

As to wages, except for you and me I think most folks are overpaid for what they do.

As to starting salaries, every year you spend in University is a year you are not being paid. In most cases you are also accumulating a debt every year.

Two people graduate from High School. One takes a permanent job and works for the next 10 years. The other decides to go to University (four year specialist and 1 year Teachers College) and teaches for 5 years. The two are now about equal in total money earned. The difference then becomes more pronounced over the next years.

As to accumulated sick days, that has been a negotiated part of the contract during each negotiation. Something was given up to get those sick days. I personally wish that they were not able to be accumulated during my years. I would have taken a lot more than I did because that was my long term disability plan. Fortunately for the taxpayer and unfortunately for me, I did not have a need for most of them and when I retired, I gave back over 370 days free of charge!

There are good teachers and there are bad teachers, Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get rid of a bad teacher who brings down the reputation of the good ones. It is a profession which can be very rewarding in job satisfaction and financially if you have the qualities required to be a good teacher. In my opinion, with affirmative action, gender equality and artificial quotas for hiring and promotion too many bad teachers are now allowed into the profession.

As to what is an "appropriate" pay scale for teachers? I say whatever they can get just like everybody else.

I remember asking a dentist what he thought an "appropriate" charge to pull a tooth. He replied, " If I charged and collected what the person was ready to pay when in pain and asking for an appointment, then I would now be a multi-millionaire".

So I guess the answer is whatever the market can stand.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Big Guy

[jacee]

Mine are based on performance. I would love to see teachers live with that

I suspect you work in a field where outcomes are cleanly defined, in $ perhaps?

How would you measure performance in teaching?

Hint: Student outcomes are very complex and costly to quantify, and reflect many influences: genetics, home, community, wellness, poverty. They cannot be validly used to evaluate teachers performance.

So ... how would you do that?

.

[Ash74]

I suspect you work in a field where outcomes are cleanly defined, in $ perhaps?

How would you measure performance in teaching?

Hint: Student outcomes are very complex and costly to quantify, and reflect many influences: genetics, home, community, wellness, poverty. They cannot be validly used to evaluate teachers performance.

So ... how would you do that?

.

I do agree it would not be easy. That being said we all have had teachers that go above and beyond for their students and ones that are waiting out the clock. Why should the ones that are just doing enough to get by be given the same raises than the ones that are doing more?

[Moonbox]

How would you measure performance in teaching?

Hint: Student outcomes are very complex and costly to quantify, and reflect many influences: genetics, home, community, wellness, poverty. They cannot be validly used to evaluate teachers performance.

So are you suggesting that just because it's not easy, we shouldn't even bother? Are you suggesting that iron-clad job security and little/no performance expectations are reasonable? We don't even need to get into the unjustified compensation, let's just talk about job security and performance expectations.

Hint: In the private sector, performance measurements are also difficult.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Moonbox

[Michael Hardner]

So are you suggesting that just because it's not easy, we shouldn't even bother? Are you suggesting that iron-clad job security and little/no performance expectations are reasonable? We don't even need to get into the unjustified compensation, let's just talk about job security and performance expectations.

Hint: In the private sector, performance measurements are also difficult.

This topic is very germane to what I do in the private sector too. Also it's difficult, and to my impression it's not done well there either. Performance is rewarded by subjective assessment at the best of times. But your point is spot on as far as I am concerned: we SHOULD bother. We should use numbers to assess things because they are objective, but these things have to come out of a dialogue between trusting experts, primarily, with a well-designed 'public' component as well.

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/ontario-government-planning-500m-cut-to-education-funding-ndp-1.2107704

Ok, thanks for the cite. Can we afford a $500M cut or not ? What about the case that there is too much spent in the system, can you refute that ? Do we have a high-level value of what the budgets have been for the past few years.

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.academia.edu/1983021/SPORTS_PARTICIPATION_AND_TEACHERS_JOB_SATISFACTION_AND_BURNOUT_IN_SELECTED_SCHOOLS_IN_METRO_MANILA

"For these reasons, this study is conceptualized to verify the studies been presented in the Philippine setting. "

My original question stands, I think. Can you add some context to it and provide some studies ?

It's not that I disagree with your points, but you have to do more than state them on here to create a basis for discussion. Thanks.

[socialist]

"For these reasons, this study is conceptualized to verify the studies been presented in the Philippine setting. "

My original question stands, I think. Can you add some context to it and provide some studies ?

It's not that I disagree with your points, but you have to do more than state them on here to create a basis for discussion. Thanks.

I'm in the system, Michael. I k ow the facts. I see the facts every day.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm in the system, Michael. I k ow the facts. I see the facts every day.

But we didn't invite you to this board as an expert. You have to provide proof like every other poster.

Thanks

[Big Guy]

Evaluation is possible but would be too expensive in teaching. First you would have to establish minimum standards. Then establish a review process acceptable to the labor relations boards. Lots of people involved who would not be teaching but on the payroll evaluating each other.

As to methodology, when Ontario began to try to evaluate Ontario hospitals by the death rate the hospitals began to ne selective on who they would admit through emergency services. When the Fraser Institute began to evaluate schools by student achievement level the Catholic schools began to be selective as to who they would register.

[Pct2017]

This topic is very germane to what I do in the private sector too. Also it's difficult, and to my impression it's not done well there either. Performance is rewarded by subjective assessment at the best of times. But your point is spot on as far as I am concerned: we SHOULD bother. We should use numbers to assess things because they are objective, but these things have to come out of a dialogue between trusting experts, primarily, with a well-designed 'public' component as well.

In the private sector, job evaluations are often done on a basis of 360 degrees. In other words, not only are you evaluated by your boss(es), but those reporting to also have a chance to evaluate you. I have never understood why this could not form a part of teacher evaluations, particularly at the upper grades. Let students, parents and fellow teachers have meaningful input on a teachers performance evaluation and you will generally get a very accurate summary. Yes, there will be axes to grind, but when averages are applied, the outliers will be apparent. Leave the technical parts of the job to be evaluated by administration for sure, but parents and students generally have a very good grasp on whether a teacher is good at teaching or not.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Pct2017

[Michael Hardner]

Evaluation is possible but would be too expensive in teaching.

They actually evaluate teachers now.

As to methodology, ...

Obviously, when you assess things there is a tendency to manage to numbers.

[Ash74]

I'm in the system, Michael. I k ow the facts. I see the facts every day.

Your not a teacher.

Evaluation is possible but would be too expensive in teaching. First you would have to establish minimum standards. Then establish a review process acceptable to the labor relations boards. Lots of people involved who would not be teaching but on the payroll evaluating each other.

As to methodology, when Ontario began to try to evaluate Ontario hospitals by the death rate the hospitals began to ne selective on who they would admit through emergency services. When the Fraser Institute began to evaluate schools by student achievement level the Catholic schools began to be selective as to who they would register.

That just shows how corrupt people are. This is why socialism does not work but that is another thread.

Having a system that rewards the lazy the same as the ambitious is not a very good system either but unions hate ambition and would never give up their hold.

[Michael Hardner]

In the private sector, job evaluations are often done on a basis of 360 degrees.

Yes, this is a fairly new innovation in assessment.

I have never understood why this could not form a part of teacher evaluations, particularly at the upper grades.

I think there may be a time coming when the labour groups can help set up such processes. There's too much suspicion today, and the parties are used to 18th century labour practices so it would be tricky to implement.

[Michael Hardner]

Your not a teacher.

We'll never know this. The member claims to be one. Let's move on.

[Pct2017]

Much has been made on this tread about how teachers have two university degrees and how that in itself should justify huge salaries. Let us just take a step back and look at that.

If you enter the fields of nursing or forestry or engineering or any other applied science, you commit to five years of courses that relate to your chosen profession. If you go into a co-op program then most of your summers are committed to actual work experience in your field. The depth of knowledge required to make you ready to practise takes a full five years.

Now, let us compare that to the teachers and their two "degrees". Four years are spent getting whatever degree you want. Feel a yearning to learn about Latin? Go for it. Religious studies interests you? Fine by the Faculty of Education. General Studies more to your skill set? C'mon in. Please do not get me wrong, all education is important to the minds development, but in most cases the initial degree leading to a B. Ed. has nothing to do with learning how to practise in the field of education. It is only in the second "degree" that the prospective teachers are actually immersed in the skills required to teach. And even at that, it only take 12 months (BC) to provide the students with all the skills they need.

So, yes, teachers do have two "degrees", but for most, the first has nothing to do with the field of teaching and the second only takes a year to achieve. It is actually quite damning to the argument that teaching is difficult if everything that a future teacher needs to know can be taught in a year.

[socialist]

Much has been made on this tread about how teachers have two university degrees and how that in itself should justify huge salaries. Let us just take a step back and look at that.

If you enter the fields of nursing or forestry or engineering or any other applied science, you commit to five years of courses that relate to your chosen profession. If you go into a co-op program then most of your summers are committed to actual work experience in your field. The depth of knowledge required to make you ready to practise takes a full five years.

Now, let us compare that to the teachers and their two "degrees". Four years are spent getting whatever degree you want. Feel a yearning to learn about Latin? Go for it. Religious studies interests you? Fine by the Faculty of Education. General Studies more to your skill set? C'mon in. Please do not get me wrong, all education is important to the minds development, but in most cases the initial degree leading to a B. Ed. has nothing to do with learning how to practise in the field of education. It is only in the second "degree" that the prospective teachers are actually immersed in the skills required to teach. And even at that, it only take 12 months (BC) to provide the students with all the skills they need.

So, yes, teachers do have two "degrees", but for most, the first has nothing to do with the field of teaching and the second only takes a year to achieve. It is actually quite damning to the argument that teaching is difficult if everything that a future teacher needs to know can be taught in a year.

I guess you don't know how rigorous the courses are. A person who has not taken the coursework necessary may be as misinformed as you. My masters degree is hard to achieve. But I will get it done with sweat and determination, and many late hours. Then I have to be prepared to teach the next day. I know many dedicated educators completing their masters degree to enhance classroom learning.