Are Ontario teachers really going to Strike?

[Pct2017]

Your post is full of lies, that being said BC is owned by the chinese and is about to be the next province of china, of course you have a balanced budget, if you didn't the emperor of china would slice your pee pee off.

I was originally not going to respond to this post for obvious reasons, but I feel that I should give Hernaday a chance to rescind with one plausible outlet for his words. Namely, were you drunk or stoned when you wrote this? Please say yes as that is the best case scenario. Otherwise, you are a very troubled, bigoted individual whose writings really should be marginalized after this post.

[Moonbox]

I'm in the system, Michael. I k ow the facts. I see the facts every day.

You're in the system, thus you see things with a deeply personal bias and you fabricate/massage the facts so that they present your profession in the angelic fantasy image that you'd have us to believe. Your personal bias is so shameless and oblivious that at this point I don't think you could have less credibility.

Case and point:

My masters degree is hard to achieve. But I will get it done with sweat and determination, and many late hours. Then I have to be prepared to teach the next day. I know many dedicated educators completing their masters degree to enhance classroom learning.

Here we have you telling us you're working on your Master's in Teaching, but you're also apparently teaching full time. Based on what you've told us before (specifically that you work 60+ hours a week) and that your Masters courses are (quoting you) "rigorous", you start to paint the picture of a guy who's totally BS'ing everyone.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Moonbox

[socialist]

You're in the system, thus you see things with a deeply personal bias and you fabricate/massage the facts so that they present your profession in the angelic fantasy image that you'd have us to believe. Your personal bias is so shameless and oblivious that at this point I don't think you could have less credibility.

Case and point:

Here we have you telling us you're working on your Master's in Teaching, but you're also apparently teaching full time. Based on what you've told us before (specifically that you work 60+ hours a week) and that your Masters courses are (quoting you) "rigorous", you start to paint the picture of a guy who's totally BS'ing everyone.

Not every week is a 60 hour week. I am dedicated to my profession. I guess that is hard for a person like you to fathom. Maybe you're upset that you will never have a Master's degree. Who knows the root of the teacher basher anger.

You and PCT paraphrase the same nonsense on an ongoing basis. Same person, perhaps?

I challenge PCT and he doesn't respond. Then he shows up 3 weeks later thinking I've forgotten about how I embarrassed him in the BC lock out thread. Teaching: The only profession where you steal things from home and bring them to work because of under funding.

Edited April 26, 2015 by socialist

[jacee]

I do agree it would not be easy. That being said we all have had teachers that go above and beyond for their students and ones that are waiting out the clock. Why should the ones that are just doing enough to get by be given the same raises than the ones that are doing more?

How would you do that?

.

[Big Guy]

To Ash 74 - You stated that "Unions hate ambition". I do not see a group of people getting together and "hating" anything. Unions do tend to be most active assisting their weakest members. That was the base of evolution of that group.

In may cases (including teacher unions), the union will assist the weakest individual, the one having difficulty fulfilling the expectations of the position, to look to another career. It is in the unions own interest to maintain a standard of performance that most other members would expect from their peers. I have personally been in many situations where the union representatives would work with administration to direct someone into another direction because they are not functional (and obviously unhappy) in their working environment because they should not have been licensed or because of physical or psychological changes due to time and/or changes in their personal life.

To Pct2017 - My reference to the two University degrees was to compare the income head start that those who chose to quit after high school have over the those who chose to stay in school.

Generally, the first degree is in the subject area in which the individual is comfortable and choses to try to specialize - the second is in learning how to "teach" - everything from child behaviour to ministry guidelines. Many young people who go through this process, show exceptional ability in their ability to learn are unable to adjust to "teaching" the average student. Many drop out during their first practice teaching assignment.

[jacee]

So are you suggesting that just because it's not easy, we shouldn't even bother? Are you suggesting that iron-clad job security and little/no performance expectations are reasonable? We don't even need to get into the unjustified compensation, let's just talk about job security and performance expectations.

Hint: In the private sector, performance measurements are also difficult.

And likely often inaccurate, biased and unfair ... unless based on something easily quantifiable like $ brought in.

Teacher performance appraisal is a supervised self-reflective qualitative review across a variety of areas, to identify areas of growth, need and successes.

It's a very useful process, but its value would be destroyed if it was attached to pay increases.

.

[Ash74]

How would you do that?

.

Top of my head.

Those that stay and help students that are falling behind. Perhaps ones that coach sports or other school activities.

Going by grades is just asking for trouble I do agree with you on that point.

I have also stated I have no real issue with teachers pay my issue is that the union is claiming it is everything but. I would much rather see a teacher get a raise than say the union receiving gift cards

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/06/27/tdsb_workers_given_253000_in_gift_cards_by_union.html

Older issue but if you think these games have stopped I have a gas plant that will not be built and will not cost a thing.

[jacee]

Top of my head.

Those that stay and help students that are falling behind. Perhaps ones that coach sports or other school activities.

English teachers have a lot more marking than other subjects. Shop teachers work in a more dangerous environment. Applied students are harder to teach than Academic ... On and on and on ... around and around ... wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You'd soon be glad if the unions just negotiated for all of them ... as they do.

Going by grades is just asking for trouble I do agree with you on that point.

I have also stated I have no real issue with teachers pay my issue is that the union is claiming it is everything but.

Maybe that's what the media are reporting?

Not sure where you're getting that from.

Collective bargaining usually includes pay.

I would much rather see a teacher get a raise than say the union receiving gift cards

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/06/27/tdsb_workers_given_253000_in_gift_cards_by_union.html

That has nothing to do with teacher collective bargaining.

Older issue but if you think these games have stopped I have a gas plant that will not be built and will not cost a thing.

?? Edited April 27, 2015 by jacee

[Ash74]

English teachers have a lot more marking than other subjects. Shop teachers work in a more dangerous environment. Applied students are harder to teach than Academic ... On and on and on ... around and around ... wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You'd soon be glad if the unions just negotiated for all of them ... as they do.

Maybe that's what the media are reporting?

Not sure where you're getting that from.

Collective bargaining usually includes pay.

??

Ok.

Yes an English teacher is teaching a different course but are still teachers. What does that have to do with anything?

But whatever.....

Please explain how teachers not getting a raise is hurting the children unless you factor in the strikes that go on and school missed.

As somebody pointed out we all work jobs that pays what the market sets for that job. The market for teachers are the taxpayer and in this case the people of Ontario. Both the people and the government that represents the people are broke.

How can we justify giving a raise for one social service and not another?

Now some would argue that teachers have a more important job than say a police officer or a nurse but those groups are not allowed to strike and yet here we are discussing striking teachers.

My last post was showing also how money that could be spent on the students was given away so the union could look good.

[Moonbox]

Not every week is a 60 hour week. I am dedicated to my profession.

Interesting how your story changes! From prior discussions you claimed this was average! IIRC your claim was that you work closer to 70 hours/week!

I guess that is hard for a person like you to fathom. Maybe you're upset that you will never have a Master's degree.

Maybe you should learn what a proper citation is before you say stuff like that. It's something you learn in post-secondary, and the fact that you clearly don't understand this fairly basic academic concept speaks volumes towards the quality and/or quantity of your education. You'd think that constant reminders from the rest of the board (and the moderator no less) would clue you in, but maybe your education wasn't so good after all...

Then he shows up 3 weeks later thinking I've forgotten about how I embarrassed him in the BC lock out thread.

Interesting criticism coming from you, since that seems to be your M.O. any time someone's proven one of your ridiculous claims to be false. You tend to duck out of the thread for a page or so until people have moved on, only to embarrass yourself later.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Moonbox

[jacee]

Ok.

Yes an English teacher is teaching a different course but are still teachers. What does that have to do with anything?

But whatever.....

Please explain how teachers not getting a raise is hurting the children unless you factor in the strikes that go on and school missed.

As somebody pointed out we all work jobs that pays what the market sets for that job. The market for teachers are the taxpayer and in this case the people of Ontario. Both the people and the government that represents the people are broke.

Same old refrain ...

How can we justify giving a raise for one social service and not another?

Those are matters for collective bargaining.

Now some would argue that teachers have a more important job than say a police officer or a nurse but those groups are not allowed to strike and yet here we are discussing striking teachers.

Again .... collective bargaining issues.

Can't be negotiated here as we don't have all the facts.

My last post was showing also how money that could be spent on the students was given away so the union could look good.

The trades council ... and a very bad move.

But nothing to do with teachers.

You're just making a generalized union slam.

Did you read the IMF thread yet?

"Labour deregulation" didn't accomplish a darn thing.

.

Edited April 27, 2015 by jacee

[Moonbox]

Teacher performance appraisal is a supervised self-reflective qualitative review across a variety of areas, to identify areas of growth, need and successes.

They're a joke. Without any sort of accountability (ie. 99.9% job security, guaranteed paid raises) the whole purpose of performance measurements is lost.

Those are matters for collective bargaining.

Right, but collective bargaining is something altogether different in a public sector monopoly.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Moonbox

[Ash74]

Interesting how your story changes! From prior discussions you claimed this was average! IIRC your claim was that you work closer to 70 hours/week!

Maybe you should learn what a proper citation is before you say stuff like that. It's something you learn in post-secondary, and the fact that you clearly don't understand this fairly basic academic concept speaks volumes towards the quality and/or quantity of your education. You'd think that constant reminders from the rest of the board (and the moderator no less) would clue you in, but maybe your education wasn't so good after all...

Interesting criticism coming from you, since that seems to be your M.O. any time someone's proven one of your ridiculous claims to be false. You tend to duck out of the thread for a page or so until people have moved on, only to embarrass yourself later.

Gost and I busted him for copy and paste a point on live chat.......He ran pretty quick when caught

[jacee]

They're a joke. Without any sort of accountability (ie. 99.9% job security, guaranteed paid raises) the whole purpose of performance measurements is lost.

Mmmm ... not entirely.

Better teachers get better choices of assignments, positions of responsibility, etc.

Lousy teachers sometimes get transfers, sometimes get 'documented', and sometimes, with union encouragement, are advised to seek another profession.

.

Right, but collective bargaining is something altogether different in a public sector monopoly.

And we still don't have all the info needed to pass judgement.

.

[socialist]

Interesting how your story changes! From prior discussions you claimed this was average! IIRC your claim was that you work closer to 70 hours/week!

Maybe you should learn what a proper citation is before you say stuff like that. It's something you learn in post-secondary, and the fact that you clearly don't understand this fairly basic academic concept speaks volumes towards the quality and/or quantity of your education. You'd think that constant reminders from the rest of the board (and the moderator no less) would clue you in, but maybe your education wasn't so good after all...

Interesting criticism coming from you, since that seems to be your M.O. any time someone's proven one of your ridiculous claims to be false. You tend to duck out of the thread for a page or so until people have moved on, only to embarrass yourself later.

I don't duck in any education thread. I speak as someone who works in the trenches. I'm not a casual observer thinking things need to be the way they were 4 years ago. Some of you get a kick out of bashing teachers. I get that, as it appears to be a fun little hobby for you.

[Ash74]

I don't duck in any education thread. I speak as someone who works in the trenches. I'm not a casual observer thinking things need to be the way they were 4 years ago. Some of you get a kick out of bashing teachers. I get that, as it appears to be a fun little hobby for you.

You dig ditches. Good for you. Bout time you admitted you are not a teacher.

Mmmm ... not entirely.

Better teachers get better choices of assignments, positions of responsibility, etc.

Lousy teachers sometimes get transfers, sometimes get 'documented', and sometimes, with union encouragement, are advised to seek another profession.

.

And we still don't have all the info needed to pass judgement.

.

It has been made very clear that it is about the wages. That is why the strikes are happening now so it will hurt the most people.

[socialist]

You dig ditches. Good for you. Bout time you admitted you are not a teacher.

It has been made very clear that it is about the wages. That is why the strikes are happening now so it will hurt the most people.

Ash, if it makes you feel better by constantly crying that I;m not an educator, then (not than) carry on. It's sad that you are obviously jealous.

[Ash74]

Ash, if it makes you feel better by constantly crying that I;m not an educator, then (not than) carry on. It's sad that you are obviously jealous.

Nope. It was the way you disrespected teachers that taught people like myself and my generation. You called them lazy.

I do not pick on grammar or spelling cause yes mine is very much sh!t and I am honest enough to admit it.

But have at it if that is all you got.

When you argue facts I read with interest and before you go off on a social justice rant you generally make good points lately. I will say you have even improved by actually using facts.

But in this case.

The province be broke. Teachers and unions are using the students as leverage to get more money. That would be called greed. Of course Wynne could raise taxes yet again to cover this but that would just be taking back the money given to the teachers. Nasty cycle.

[Moonbox]

Lousy teachers sometimes get transfers, sometimes get 'documented', and sometimes, with union encouragement, are advised to seek another profession.

Lousy teachers generally keep their jobs all the way to retirement. The turnover rate for full-time contract teachers is practically nothing. That's all of the indication we need as to how effective disciplinary measures are. There are little/no consequences for poor performance, thus the bar stays artificially low.

And we still don't have all the info needed to pass judgement.

We don't need all of the info to pass judgement. We have more than enough already.

[Moonbox]

I don't duck in any education thread.

Yes you do. You always come back, but you have a fairly consistent habit of disappearing for a thread page or two once someone has posted something that makes you look stupid.

I speak as someone who works in the trenches.

The trenches? Excuse me while I puke. 6 hour work days and 10 weeks of holidays ain't the trenches.

I'm not a casual observer thinking things need to be the way they were 4 years ago.

but you're pitifully and shamelessly biased. Your lack of intellectual integrity in this debate (shifting stories, refusal/inability to cite your claims, outright lies) is so blatant that when you try to suggest we should trust anything you say I can only laugh. Whether or not you're actually a teacher, you've lost all credibility.

Some of you get a kick out of bashing teachers.

Ones who are as full of BS as you? Absolutely. We bash the teachers because we know what they're paid and we know how hard they work. You making up imaginary hours and work loads doesn't change that.

[Ash74]

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/04/28/students-shocked-by-sleeping-tdsb-supply-teacher

Well at least he was not texting.

[Boges]

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/04/28/students-shocked-by-sleeping-tdsb-supply-teacher

Well at least he was not texting.

I'm sure the Union will criticize people for taking pictures instead of making sure he wasn't dead like this dude in the TTC.

http://www.citynews.ca/2010/01/22/ttc-worker-photographed-sleeping-on-the-job/

[Ash74]

I'm sure the Union will criticize people for taking pictures instead of making sure he wasn't dead like this dude in the TTC.

http://www.citynews.ca/2010/01/22/ttc-worker-photographed-sleeping-on-the-job/

One of the sticking points in negotiations is substitutes seniority over who the principal will feel is a good fit in his or her school

http://www.pressreader.com/canada/the-sun-times/20150428/281556584376001/TextView

this is where the union proves it cares not about the students but the members that pay the dues

[Topaz]

Under McGuinty, I think the teachers were treated very fairly on the most part, but it all adds up to were we are today with the debit, along with the gas plants and I still think those cities who didn't want them, should pay something towards the cost of moving them. Anyway, listening to the radio, as I do, the program was talking about the University of Windsor On, who pays their professor 250,000 yearly and tuition has gone up so much that student are either being force to quit, because of expenses. I think if we had smarter people in government they would make it easier for people to get a good job, which would help the economy. As corporations and government get rid of the middle class, many of those making good money, may find themselves out of a job, who work for those corps.

[Big Guy]

To Ash74 - I agree with you that the decision by teacher unions to add substitute (occasional) teachers to their negotiating teams was a mistake. As part of the negotiating teams they did convince the majority to change the method of assigning these teachers.

In the past, the principal created and maintained a list of qualified teachers for his school. They were prioritized by experience, availability, dependability and knowledge. Recently retired teachers from that school were prioritized for the most seamless transition for a day, week or longer term.

The priority is the student. An absence of the regular teacher does not necessitate the loss of a teaching period to be filled by a film or other passive participation. There are all kinds of other advantages of allowing principals to maintain their list and make decisions accordingly.

Under Mike Harris, principals were removed from the OSSTF and lost influence in the decision making process. That was also a mistake where a wedge was driven between principals and their staff. It is the students who lost when the unions began to decide who would fill the occasional teacher position in which school