Are Ontario teachers really going to Strike?

[Boges]

Many are...but in reality it's an issue beyond teacher pay scale. It would be like Bob McCown demanding Rogers sell off the Blue Jays during his contract negotiations.

And it's not really part of this debate. The Union negotiates with the Board. The Board isn't going to volunteer to allow itself to get merged with the Catholic Board unless it means there aren't any job losses. It's something that has to come from the Government. And a government would have to have a mandate for something like that. Meaning it would be part of an election platform.

[Mighty AC]

The Union negotiates with the Board. The Board isn't going to volunteer to allow itself to get merged with the Catholic Board unless it means there aren't any job losses. It's something that has to come from the Government. And a government would have to have a mandate for something like that. Meaning it would be part of an election platform.

Negotiations are directly with the government this time.

A government should have a mandate prior to axing the Catholic board....but sometimes the right thing has to be done regardless of the situation. Like the adding the GST for instance. However, since the boomer bubble will leave us with many years of declining government revenue coupled with rising health costs, I think merging the boards will not only get done, but soon be considered a semi-popular move.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Mighty AC

[jacee]

These aren't annual cost of living raises. They're promotions based on years of service, and the province wants to slow that rate down. Also, as far as I know, teachers still get these grid raises, even though there's supposed to be a wage freeze.

You're right that many employers give annual cost of living increases, BUT If a private employer was in as much debt as the provincial government, I'd imagine there'd be across the board layoffs. We don't see that in the public sector. So we have a wage freeze instead. Can't have it both ways.

Your analogy is not a good one.

The public sector is not a business, not 'in business' to make money,

but to provide collective essential services to the public

... with our own money.

EG, when the private sector tanks and people are laid off, more social services are needed and the government takes on more staff and more debt to meet the needs until tax revenues from the private sector recover.

.

[Boges]

Your analogy is not a good one.

The public sector is not a business, not 'in business' to make money,

but to provide collective essential services to the public

... with our own money.

EG, when the private sector tanks and people are laid off, more social services are needed and the government takes on more staff and more debt to meet the needs until tax revenues from the private sector recover.

.

But you were stating that cost of living raises are a common thing, they are where I work. But I'm guessing not in all places.

Another difference between the private and public sector is that many "normals" get hired and work without thinking about being with or without a contract. So there's no way to negotiate annual pay increases. Which is why employers give cost of living increases anyway, if they're a good employer that is. You don't need Unions for these things.

But, as far as I know, the teachers aren't fighting about a "wage freeze" but if you get grid promotions just by being employed you can't really call it a wage freeze can you?

[jacee]

Also, remove communities from the process of choosing which schools to close will expedite the closure process dramatically. People fight with emotions over old buildings that cost more to keep running than to bulldoze and rebuild...

Excuse me?!!

"Communities" PAY for education!!

Trustees will remain accountable to their communities and communities will continue to have input to policy.

.

[Boges]

Excuse me?!!

"Communities" PAY for education!!

Trustees will remain accountable to their communities and communities will continue to have input to policy.

.

I love how you're going after people on both sides here.

I'm sure a single community that doesn't have the birthrate to fill a given school can't really complain if their half-empy school faces closing.

[jacee]

Another difference between the private and public sector is that many "normals" get hired and work without thinking about being with or without a contract. So there's no way to negotiate annual pay increases. Which is why employers give cost of living increases anyway, if they're a good employer that is. You don't need Unions for these things.

Unions are needed precisely because not all employers are "good" employers.

.

[Boges]

Unions are needed precisely because not all employers are "good" employers.

.

Unions today don't protect other workers. In the past they were instrumental in establishing labour laws. But they don't protect people that have to work 60 hours a week without benefits.

The truth is, other than certain regulated and heavily subsidized (sup domestic auto workers) private industries, the public sector is the only place Unions have any real power. Which is why I find them so objectionable because they hold the taxpayer hostage with their own money.

Public sector Unions have zero grasp on reality because they don't have to care who their "customers" are. They're employers can legally take the money from the unwashed masses through taxes.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Boges

[jacee]

Unions today don't protect other workers. In the past they were instrumental in establishing labour laws. But they don't protect people that have to work 60 hours a week without benefits.

If you're talking about non-union workplaces, there's a solution to that.

The truth is, other than certain regulated and heavily subsidized (sup domestic auto workers) private industries, the public sector is the only place Unions have any real power.

That can and may change. (See thread ... IMF: Labour deregulation not working)

Which is why I find them so objectionable because they hold the taxpayer hostage with their own money.

Not sure what you mean by that.

Public sector Unions have zero grasp on reality because they don't have to care who their "customers" are. They're employers can legally take the money from the unwashed masses through taxes.

"unwashed masses" ?!?

Well, I guess nothing's perfect but it's better than the alternative.

Like any profession, teaching attracts better people since 1973 when they gained the ability to bargain effectively for equal pay for women, and decent pay overall.

.

[H10]

If these people Strike when the Premiere is Kathleen Wynne, they will never be happy with any administration.

http://www.640toronto.com/2015/04/17/etfo-pushes-for-no-board-report-inching-closer-to-strike/

http://www.cp24.com/news/union-representing-ontario-high-school-teachers-walks-away-from-negotiations-1.2328299

I have yet to read specifics on what exactly these teachers want and what the province is offering. I imagine they don't want the public to know what type of trivial frill that a good majority of the public doesn't get that they're willing to screw up the school year over.

To evoke the name Mike Harris when Kathleen Wynne is in power is perhaps the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Going on Strike a few weeks before the end of the school year is perhaps the most offensive thing. But of course, they're doing it for the children.

People want their children to be well educated, yet are willing to pay a ged education cop more than a teacher with 2 degrees.

The teachers have been getting a raw deal for quiet some time. The government won't even allow them to go to arbitration because they'd likely get a 20% salary raise. We are talking a province where bus drivers, firemen, train operators, and police men, all of whom are government workers requiring no more than a high school education who clear 100k or more. Whereas the police just got an 8% raise over 4 years and starting salary of $98,000, the teachers are getting half that starting, all benefits cut in half and told they should be happy, work more hours and get less pay.

Some might say well a teacher isn't getting shot at, except when students bring guns to school, and they don't have any bullet proof vest. And I sure like to hear the explanation for why a bus driver ought earn more than a teacher. But it isn't even necessary. The government would lose in arbitration.

[DFCaper]

People want their children to be well educated, yet are willing to pay a ged education cop more than a teacher with 2 degrees.

The teachers have been getting a raw deal for quiet some time. The government won't even allow them to go to arbitration because they'd likely get a 20% salary raise. We are talking a province where bus drivers, firemen, train operators, and police men, all of whom are government workers requiring no more than a high school education who clear 100k or more. Whereas the police just got an 8% raise over 4 years and starting salary of $98,000, the teachers are getting half that starting, all benefits cut in half and told they should be happy, work more hours and get less pay.

Some might say well a teacher isn't getting shot at, except when students bring guns to school, and they don't have any bullet proof vest. And I sure like to hear the explanation for why a bus driver ought earn more than a teacher. But it isn't even necessary. The government would lose in arbitration.

The positions you are comparing to are paid by municipal governments. The arbitration rules are ridiculous in this province. Seeing how the rules are set by the province, and Wynne is bought and paid for, the raises will continue.

Don't worry, The Teachers gave Wynne Millions and they will continue to get raises. Didn't one of the teachers unions get raises as soon as she was elected? Plus with grid raises, when we say they took a pay freeze, what percentage of them actually got pay freezes?

What other highly educated "professionals" are always threatening to and actually striking? As a parent with school age children, their striking against me is only going to have me supporting the government. If they go out, I would be happy to see them out till the snow flies. Though, I may be forced to look into those private schools that Socialist is always mentions. A strike maybe allow them to expand into my area....

[Hydraboss]

I can't seem to locate the Ontario CBAs for teachers, but this should give you an idea what the little whiners are looking for...

This is my school board (you only have to roll down a little bit):

http://www.teachers.ab.ca/For%20Members/Salary%20Benefits%20and%20Pension/CollectiveAgreements/Pages/Black-Gold-Regional-Division-No-18-%282012---2016%29.aspx

[Hydraboss]

That was just for anyone who thinks teachers are "hard done by" or "underpaid".

edit.....oh, and please don't think the salary grid even BEGINS to reflect what they make. Keep reading if you really want the whole picture.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Hydraboss

[Michael Hardner]

I can't seem to locate the Ontario CBAs for teachers, but this should give you an idea what the little whiners are looking for...

This is my school board (you only have to roll down a little bit):

http://www.teachers.ab.ca/For%20Members/Salary%20Benefits%20and%20Pension/CollectiveAgreements/Pages/Black-Gold-Regional-Division-No-18-(2012---2016).aspx

Thank you for posting some factual information upon which to base the discussion. While I do have my politics, I fid that there is too much opinion posted and not enough fact. Thanks again.

[jacee]

I don't disagree. Why do we only hear about it on Message Boards? Why isn't this a demand from these teachers threatening to strike?

Because it has nothing to do with their contract talks.

I suspect the potential jobs losses to middle managers at the board are the main reason. You immediately remove, or at least merge, an entire level of bureaucracy. That's gonna cost jobs.

That has little to do with teachers, and nothing to do with contract talks.

As a side note, and complete thread drift, there's plenty of pointy heads that say, instead of this huge social safety net, we should just ensure every Canadian gets a minimum income, say $20,000/year. Wouldn't that be great? But in order for that to work, you'd have remove the social welfare industry. Imagine how many jobs that would cost?

Entirely off topic ... but you could start a thread on guaranteed annual income. It's an interesting idea.

.

[socialist]

Thank you for posting some factual information upon which to base the discussion. While I do have my politics, I fid that there is too much opinion posted and not enough fact. Thanks again.

Michael, you will like this piece. It is title the Neoliberal Education Mash-Up. You will realize who is working behind the scenes to undermine public education and teachers. Those who call teachers greedy and don't realize the teacher unions are fighting for students and the good of society have no serious business commenting on strikes. They only see and read what the powerfully rich neoliberals want them to read.

https://briarpatchmagazine.com/articles/view/the-neoliberal-education-mash-up

[Boges]

Because it has nothing to do with their contract talks.

That has little to do with teachers, and nothing to do with contract talks.

Entirely off topic ... but you could start a thread on guaranteed annual income. It's an interesting idea.

.

I was responding to the posts from MCC and AC about merging the Catholic and Public boards to save money.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Boges

[Boges]

I see the new tactic from Teacher supporters is to go after other public servants that don't need a post secondary education to do their job.

COPS GOT A RAISE!!!!!! They only need high school!!!!!

That argument doesn't do anything for me, I see all public servants the same. But I don't believe Cops or Nurses or even the TTC have the right to Strike. So think about that before you go after your public servant brethren.

Also, pardon me if I'm not impressed by needing any old Liberal Arts degree then an extra year of specialized education. There are so many people that think that's pretty reasonable for education standards that the the province had to extend teachers college to 2 years just to stem the flow of teachers coming out of school that won't have jobs.

[Mighty AC]

Because it has nothing to do with their contract talks.

That has little to do with teachers, and nothing to do with contract talks.

I was responding to the posts from MCC and AC about merging the Catholic and Public boards to save money.

...

COPS GOT A RAISE!!!!!!

Education, like most public services, always has more need than money. Since we are now entering a time when our tax base is in decline but our health costs are facing increases, thanks to the Boomer bubble, money saving ideas have to be part of the discussion. Money should have been put into a fund for the last 30 years, but it wasn't and now we have to deal it.

I think most people understand that public services, no matter how important, will have to be cut when tax revenues decrease. However, cuts to some public services become harder to swallow when others are seeing raises and politicians won't even consider massive money saving ideas. Any politician that refuses to discuss merging and erasing the Catholic system, an idea that could save $1.5 billion dollars, is not a leader.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Mighty AC

[jacee]

I was responding to the posts from MCC and AC about merging the Catholic and Public boards to save money.

Why isn't this a demand from these teachers threatening to strike?

I was responding to this.

Merging is a political issue, not a contract issue.

.

[H10]

I see the new tactic from Teacher supporters is to go after other public servants that don't need a post secondary education to do their job.

COPS GOT A RAISE!!!!!! They only need high school!!!!!

That argument doesn't do anything for me, I see all public servants the same. But I don't believe Cops or Nurses or even the TTC have the right to Strike. So think about that before you go after your public servant brethren.

Also, pardon me if I'm not impressed by needing any old Liberal Arts degree then an extra year of specialized education. There are so many people that think that's pretty reasonable for education standards that the the province had to extend teachers college to 2 years just to stem the flow of teachers coming out of school that won't have jobs.

The teacher's had their right to strike taken away by the government. They didn't get essential worker pay in exchange. on that fact alone being transformed into essential workers should give them a substantial pay increase.

fair enough but there are people less educated commanding substantial premiums. The education sector is competing with the private sector for the most talented teachers and individuals. Why would any sane individual who is highly skilled give up a 140k starting investment banking job on bay street to go and teach kids with a fraction of the salary? It doesn't even make sense. Hence you end up drawing good teachers who are from rich families and can give charity or medicore teachers who can't hack it in the private sector. I want the best education for my children, and I know you can't get the best workers by paying them half of what they can get in the private sector.

The positions you are comparing to are paid by municipal governments. The arbitration rules are ridiculous in this province. Seeing how the rules are set by the province, and Wynne is bought and paid for, the raises will continue.

Don't worry, The Teachers gave Wynne Millions and they will continue to get raises. Didn't one of the teachers unions get raises as soon as she was elected? Plus with grid raises, when we say they took a pay freeze, what percentage of them actually got pay freezes?

What other highly educated "professionals" are always threatening to and actually striking? As a parent with school age children, their striking against me is only going to have me supporting the government. If they go out, I would be happy to see them out till the snow flies. Though, I may be forced to look into those private schools that Socialist is always mentions. A strike maybe allow them to expand into my area....

The teachers haven't gottena raise in over a decade. Thus through inflation they've actually received a 10 year pay cut. Any teacher with over 10 years experience has been on a 10 year wage freeze.

Other highly educated professionals with similar education qualifications in government are constantly being promoted and receiving pay raises. Teachers are the only one who get screwed in this manner. Teacher's aren't striking against you, they are striking against low wages in high cost cities.

If you want your children to be educated by the best teachers available it doesn't work to pay teachers lower than police, because the young highly talented teachers aren't in the business of charity (very few highly talented people are) they will just leave for more reaonable paying jobs. Why become a teacher and deal with unruly violent children when you can go drive a bus or be a cop with a gun to shoot anyone who resist your orders. Better yet why not just go work for 3 years do an mba which is shorter than teacher's college and then in 5 years be earning well into the 150k+ range. Or why not go spend 3 years and become a ca and in 5 years be earning an average of 130k and not have to deal with unruly and complex school issues. It takes 1-2 years of teacher college + undergrad degree + 3-5 years supply teaching before you even find full time work. And even if you work your heart out, the people with less qualifications still take home more money. The average CA who is 45-55 is making 170k. You'd have to be an idiot to go into teaching. Screw that, you couldn't pay me 100k to teach a class full of unruly kids and workovertime writing reports cards. You'd have to literally pay 150k to attract away talent from the private sector to improve teacher quality.

And if you are going to say teachers don't deserve 150k because my childs teacher stinks, fine, maybe they do stink and don't deserve that, but do you want the best teacher or the stinky teacher teacher. Because highly talented people know what they are worth and aren't going to be low balled into difficult jobs with difficult working conditions and LOWER pay then the private sector.

[Boges]

fair enough but there are people less educated commanding substantial premiums. The education sector is competing with the private sector for the most talented teachers and individuals. Why would any sane individual who is highly skilled give up a 140k starting investment banking job on bay street to go and teach kids with a fraction of the salary? It doesn't even make sense. Hence you end up drawing good teachers who are from rich families and can give charity or medicore teachers who can't hack it in the private sector. I want the best education for my children, and I know you can't get the best workers by paying them half of what they can get in the private sector.

Then why is there a line out the door with people that have teaching degrees looking for work? They should all have high-paying banking jobs to fall back on.

The argument about bus drivers and cops doesn't work with me. I find them equally as objectionable because they're part of this Public Sector that is sucking this province dry.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Boges

[Ash74]

Then why is there a line out the door with people that have teaching degrees looking for work? They should all have high-paying banking jobs to fall back on.

The argument about bus drivers and cops doesn't work with me. I find them equally as objectionable because they're part of this Public Sector that is sucking this province dry.

I agree. The issue is if bus drivers are making more than the teachers than I have to say that the bus drivers are being over paid.

[Michael Hardner]

I agree. The issue is if bus drivers are making more than the teachers than I have to say that the bus drivers are being over paid.

Inherent in this response is the principle that merit is a reason to legislate wages, even private wages. So why not legislate all wages to what is "fair" ?

[Boges]

Inherent in this response is the principle that merit is a reason to legislate wages, even private wages. So why not legislate all wages to what is "fair" ?

Because market conditions are supposed to dictate private wages. When you see that the base salary for a cop is creeping closer and closer to 6 figures, how can that be a response to market conditions? Especially when you consider that crime is historically low.

And wages are legislated, at the low end, in the developed world.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Boges