Are Ontario teachers really going to Strike?

[Hydraboss]

True, removing principals from the clan likely had a negative influence on what substitute teachers get what placement, but it could be worse such as in Alberta where they ARE in the same damn union. Principals pretty much refuse to point out anything negative about a teacher because.....the principals are also teachers and we all know they don't eat their own.

So if a choice had to be made, I would suggest it's better that there is at least a modicum of separation between principals (administration) and teachers.

[Moonbox]

Under McGuinty, I think the teachers were treated very fairly on the most part,

It was more than fair for them.

[Ash74]

GIMME A RAISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WORK HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2015/04/28/toronto-supply-teacher-caught-on-twitter-sleeping-on-the-job.html

Poor guy. Likely was not feeling well. But it is really funny and the timing is perfect.

[Big Guy]

To Hydraboss - There had always been a modicum of separation between teachers and principals. Principals had a fairly rigorous process to be able to take the principal courses. The courses themselves had high standards with a good percentage of those applying not receiving accreditation.

The advantage when teachers and principals were in the same union was that if there was a problem, the principal (the head teacher) could call in the teacher, close the door and settle the problem directly and quickly - reminding the teacher in difficulty of what the principal was prepared to do if the situation was not cleaned up.

When I left the system, principals now had their own "association". Teachers were warned and followed union instructions - do not enter into any discussion with your principal about any professional matter, disciplinary or evaluative, without your union representative being present.

The principals became "management" and the unions gained extensive powers. Any meeting between principals and staff became adversarial and at times confrontational. Where principals had been the buffer between staff and the political trustees, they became part of the political arm, and seen as such. That situation caused irrevocable damage to the spirit and motivation within the school community.

BTW - The principal who supports a teacher based strictly as "being part of the clan" does not last very long. An underperforming teacher is a stone around a principals neck.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Big Guy

[socialist]

To all the teacher bashers here with kids in public schools: Teachers are defending their professionalism and your child’s learning experience.

[Hydraboss]

To all the teacher bashers here with kids in public schools: Teachers are defending their professionalism and your child’s learning experience.

Teachers NEED to defend their professionalism.

Good point.

[socialist]

Teachers NEED to defend their professionalism.

Good point.

Educators are professionals. Some narrow minded people think differently.

[Ash74]

Still..........caught napping

[socialist]

Teachers NEED to defend their professionalism.

Good point.

You get a self-interested group which wants to get out of the teaching classroom as fast as possible. They leave school as soon as the bell rings so they that can get to their latest shmooze session at the Board Office where they can 'network' and get their latest idea across so that they can be seen to be the newest hotshot. (Meanwhile, their kids are running wild in the school hall and the other teachers have to deal with them.)

So, they become Board 'consultants' and they spend their time 'consulting' with each other and the Pink Palace at Queen's Park. Almost as an afterthought, they keep bugging the teachers in the classroom to attempt to foist their latest idea or new set of textbooks on the classroom. New books when the old books were perfectly good for the job.

The ultimate goal is to get out of 'Dodge' and into the Pink Palace at Queen's Park were the real ladder climbing takes place.

And all this nonsense costs big bucks as the Board Offices and Queen's Park are overloaded with these leaches who continually churn out curricula and other 'initiatives' which the drones in the classroom are to implement. And they are given large salaries to engage in this continual chaos. A pox on them. But, it never changes.

[socialist]

Still..........caught napping

Nobody claims to be underpaid nor overworked. You're no better than the Ontario Liberals with this comment. The quality of education has indeed declined but you offer no suggestion as to why. Only that it ought not to be the case since more money is being poured into education.

Well, I can tell you from my perspective, as a high school teacher, that it has declined because kids are no longer held to a high standard. For a long time we weren't allowed to give marks of zero nor could we deduct marks for a late assignment. Kids in elementary school pass even when they're not capable of understanding the curriculum. Behaviour problems, which harm the learning of ALL kids in a class, cannot be dealt with by administrators anymore as a result of interference by trustees and politically motivated sr. officers at the board office.

A lot of that money you mention has gone into funding pet projects by individual board consultants or centrally assigned people. These projects are often (not always) about advancing the careers of ladder climbers and do very little to held kids... even if the claim is made loud and clear that it's ALL about the kids. In reality, it's not.

There are teachers who ought to be running the show at board offices because they're just so good at what they do but they choose to stay in the classroom. THESE are the people you're crapping on rather than the parasites at board offices or trustee offices or offices of the MoE.

[Ash74]

You get a self-interested group which wants to get out of the teaching classroom as fast as possible. They leave school as soon as the bell rings so they that can get to their latest shmooze session at the Board Office where they can 'network' and get their latest idea across so that they can be seen to be the newest hotshot. (Meanwhile, their kids are running wild in the school hall and the other teachers have to deal with them.)

So, they become Board 'consultants' and they spend their time 'consulting' with each other and the Pink Palace at Queen's Park. Almost as an afterthought, they keep bugging the teachers in the classroom to attempt to foist their latest idea or new set of textbooks on the classroom. New books when the old books were perfectly good for the job.

The ultimate goal is to get out of 'Dodge' and into the Pink Palace at Queen's Park were the real ladder climbing takes place.

And all this nonsense costs big bucks as the Board Offices and Queen's Park are overloaded with these leaches who continually churn out curricula and other 'initiatives' which the drones in the classroom are to implement. And they are given large salaries to engage in this continual chaos. A pox on them. But, it never changes.

It was only a few weeks ago you chanted about how wonderful Wynne is. She can do no wrong and now here we are.

You talked about how professionalism with teachers was absolute and yet you throw a bunch under the bus.

The teachers union is fighting a battle for seniority overriding talent. The union is fighting for the students but the same union is trying to get teachers like "The Napper" a full time job whether he is the most qualified or not.

So these same people that for you walked on water a very short time ago and you claimed would never text in class are now just padding their nests

Ok let us say you are a teacher. With the ridiculous number of teachers waiting for a full time position how did you walk into one so quickly after graduating?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite

Now if you will excuse me I must sleep. Some of us work for a living and I cannot nap at work

Edited April 29, 2015 by Ash74

[Pct2017]

Well, what a conundrum I find myself in. Just this very morning I had a discussion with The Facilator about how it was just no fun around these parts of the inter web anymore. Young Socialist was getting boring and batting him about presented no challenge, so maybe it was time to move onto other pastures.

Then Young Socialist writes two posts this evening that are even, well articulated, thought provoking and non-confrontational. No cartoons, no references to loopy left wing websites, just his own thoughts. Now, do not get me wrong, I do not necessarily agree with much of what he wrote, but for the first time ever, I have to take him seriously. Where has this been for the past year and a half? I must admit I ran bits of both posts through anti-plagiarism sites, and lo and behold, these seem to be original thoughts expressed by our young friend.

Now, you may ask yourselves, is old PCT just jerking us around or using sarcasm to belittle Socialist. Well, no. I am here to say that I am impressed with the very marked, dramatic and vastly more effectual style of posting that Socialist has provided us with this evening. Bravo young man, bravo. Now, try your darnedest to keep it up and you never know, maybe we can engage in meaningful discourse.

[socialist]

Just curious PCT, but what do you not necessarily agree with in my previous posts? There are major problems. I am not allowed to speak my mind due to a professional code of conduct.

[Pct2017]

Just curious PCT, but what do you not necessarily agree with in my previous posts? There are major problems. I am not allowed to speak my mind due to a professional code of conduct.

See, now look at you and I talking in a civilized manner. Who would have thought.

OK, if you have to ask what was wrong with your posts for the last year and a half, then I cannot answer. All I can say is read your two posts last night and then randomly pick any two posts prior and look at the difference.

Now, as to your statement that you cannot speak your mind due to your professional code of conduct, that is interesting. I have not read the Ontario College of Teachers (hell, I do not even know if such an overseeing body exists as it does not here in BC) Code of Conduct, but it is pretty standard for most professional associations to cover the conduct of one member complaining about a fellow member in a public manor. Generally there are no repercussions regarding a member speaking out against practices. So, if that is indeed true then you appear to be saying that some members of the teaching profession (and I am loath to assign that designation to teachers) are the core of what is wrong in education in Canada. I do believe that if that is what you are eluding to, and that seems to be born out in your post last evening, then you are actually supporting what pretty much everyone on this forum has been stating.

[cybercoma]

The teacher bashing is pretty appalling. Especially when it comes from people who couldn't manage a classroom if their lives depended on it.

[Hydraboss]

Nobody claims to be underpaid nor overworked. .............................

...................................For a long time we weren't allowed to give marks of zero...........................

Very well thought out posts. And I am now confused as several of your statements run completely contrary to what you have been posting since you got here.

Not looking to start a fight here, but YOU claimed that teachers are underpaid AND overworked. And YOU defend the idea of removing marks for students.

How do you justify the 180 degree turn around in your thoughts? Just curious.

[socialist]

See, now look at you and I talking in a civilized manner. Who would have thought.

OK, if you have to ask what was wrong with your posts for the last year and a half, then I cannot answer. All I can say is read your two posts last night and then randomly pick any two posts prior and look at the difference.

Now, as to your statement that you cannot speak your mind due to your professional code of conduct, that is interesting. I have not read the Ontario College of Teachers (hell, I do not even know if such an overseeing body exists as it does not here in BC) Code of Conduct, but it is pretty standard for most professional associations to cover the conduct of one member complaining about a fellow member in a public manor. Generally there are no repercussions regarding a member speaking out against practices. So, if that is indeed true then you appear to be saying that some members of the teaching profession (and I am loath to assign that designation to teachers) are the core of what is wrong in education in Canada. I do believe that if that is what you are eluding to, and that seems to be born out in your post last evening, then you are actually supporting what pretty much everyone on this forum has been stating.

What do you make of this, PCT? Start at the 33:00 minute mark.

https://soundcloud.com/ian-jessop-cfax/april-28-1pm-1?in=ian-jessop-cfax/sets/ian-jessop

[socialist]

Very well thought out posts. And I am now confused as several of your statements run completely contrary to what you have been posting since you got here.

Not looking to start a fight here, but YOU claimed that teachers are underpaid AND overworked. And YOU defend the idea of removing marks for students.

How do you justify the 180 degree turn around in your thoughts? Just curious.

Maybe the matrix isn't a myth after all. These are strange times, indeed.

[Ash74]

Educators are professionals. Some narrow minded people think differently.

http://thechive.com/2015/04/29/there-are-teachers-and-then-there-are-educators-13-photos/

The teacher bashing is pretty appalling. Especially when it comes from people who couldn't manage a classroom if their lives depended on it.

I believe that teaching is a noble profession and I do agree that they have the right for a fair wage. I would not say they are " wealthy" but are given many incentives too become a teacher. A pension that is the envy of any profession, excellent benefits and a very good amount of time off.

I could never claim that I could be a teacher and have nothing but respect for the ones I deal with regularly.

[Bob Macadoo]

Very well thought out posts. And I am now confused as several of your statements run completely contrary to what you have been posting since you got here.

Not looking to start a fight here, but YOU claimed that teachers are underpaid AND overworked. And YOU defend the idea of removing marks for students.

How do you justify the 180 degree turn around in your thoughts? Just curious.

Really? You can't figure out a change in schtick.....and reasoning behind it? That's why trolls flourish here.

[GostHacked]

why should teachers who need two degrees, sometimes 3 not be paid fairly? i'm working on my masters and will be done after next year. i will get a pay increase like i deserve for getting a masters degree. Few people have masters degrees. Teachers have a huge responsibility. You won't attract the best and brightest if you don't pay teachers accordingly.

Have all the degrees you want. But the job only pays a certain amount. Just because you have a masters does not mean you should be paid more. If you want more money, try another teaching avenue, like a college professor. A school teacher should get a raise based on workload and skill level involved. You could probably make a lot of money being a personal tutor!

I can have all the IT certs and experience in the world, but that does not mean I can demand 60K for a 40K job.

[Big Guy]

I agree GostHacked that it is questionable why additional degrees mean greater compensation.

I assume that the idea is to encourage workers to up grade to keep up with new methodology or to sharpen their skills. It is not a unique incentive and happens often in the private sectors. Most companies encourage their workers to take courses and in most cases pay for the courses and give them time off to attend.

I see the same attitude in medicine. We have regular physicians and we have specialists. Specialists charge more for their time than non-specialists. In the legal profession, while you can shop around for the best deal, those lawyers who specialize in the field in which you need assistance do charge a higher fee.

Perhaps the question is what should be the minimal requirement to graduate from Teachers College? Maybe a Masters of Education should be required. In Ontario, a Masters or equivalent is required to apply to attend a principals course.

I think that you would agree that teacher with a Masters Degree in Education should be better equipped to do the job. The teacher teaching Geography with a Masters in some element of curriculum of the Geography course would obviously be in a better position to create presentations and assist other teachers in the Geography Department in his/her specialty area.

As for your example of IT compensation, I suggest that it will be based on the individuals background, market, experience and is negotiable. Teaching compensation is based on a negotiated settlement for teachers as a homogeneous group as represented by their union.

I do agree that there are many times where additional degrees do not improve the effectiveness of some teachers. Too many teachers are poor communicators with poor methodology of presentation. They can have 8 additional degrees and still be inadequate in the classroom. You can paint a rock a rock many colours and tie a nice bow tie around it but if you throw it in the water- it sinks.

[socialist]

Have all the degrees you want. But the job only pays a certain amount. Just because you have a masters does not mean you should be paid more. If you want more money, try another teaching avenue, like a college professor. A school teacher should get a raise based on workload and skill level involved. You could probably make a lot of money being a personal tutor!

I can have all the IT certs and experience in the world, but that does not mean I can demand 60K for a 40K job.

I tend to agree with you. But across Canada, teachers are being encouraged to obtain a masters degree. Divisions and districts are pushing this. I see teachers 45 years old, who teach grade 4, completing their masters degree in something like guidance or social work. It has nothing to do with teaching It won't make her a better teacher. But it will increase her pay by about $10K. Multiply this by the number of teachers currently enrolled in masters programs. A huge collective increase in salaries will be the result. Property owners will be on the hook. Education won't be any better.

[Topaz]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the more degrees the teacher has, the more money they can make, right? Also, if teachers were fighting for the kids and not the money, I think more people would understand a strike

[socialist]

See, now look at you and I talking in a civilized manner. Who would have thought.

OK, if you have to ask what was wrong with your posts for the last year and a half, then I cannot answer. All I can say is read your two posts last night and then randomly pick any two posts prior and look at the difference.

Now, as to your statement that you cannot speak your mind due to your professional code of conduct, that is interesting. I have not read the Ontario College of Teachers (hell, I do not even know if such an overseeing body exists as it does not here in BC) Code of Conduct, but it is pretty standard for most professional associations to cover the conduct of one member complaining about a fellow member in a public manor. Generally there are no repercussions regarding a member speaking out against practices. So, if that is indeed true then you appear to be saying that some members of the teaching profession (and I am loath to assign that designation to teachers) are the core of what is wrong in education in Canada. I do believe that if that is what you are eluding to, and that seems to be born out in your post last evening, then you are actually supporting what pretty much everyone on this forum has been stating.

PCT, you know as a teacher I have to repeat what I'm told to say. No straying allowed, or I will be at the mercy of those people at the top. You know the type; the puppets dangling from strings of gold.