Are Ontario teachers really going to Strike?

[Ash74]

Inherent in this response is the principle that merit is a reason to legislate wages, even private wages. So why not legislate all wages to what is "fair" ?

I have no faith that a government could decide what is fair.

When placing taxes they call anybody that makes over $90,000 rich but when paying themselves they cry poor or stress that anything over $100,000 is really not a lot of money (I actually agree but that is the sunshine list thread).

Show me a government of any stripe that you would trust too implement such a law. At what point do we start to look after ourselves and not expect government too do it all for us.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Ash74

[H10]

Then why is there a line out the door with people that have teaching degrees looking for work? They should all have high-paying banking jobs to fall back on.

The argument about bus drivers and cops doesn't work with me. I find them equally as objectionable because they're part of this Public Sector that is sucking this province dry.

Good question, there still remain shortages of teachers in french, technology, sciences, math and business and believe it or not religion. The "Too many" teachers usually all come from the psychology, sociology, history and anthropology backgrounds. You know the ones where there is no private market direct competition. Its not these people can't do well in the private sector, they'd just usually have to spend 6 months to a year upgrading and learning the industry. and yes teachers do have high paying jobs to fall back on, but a fall back job isn't instantaneous. So for instance, a psychology major may have to take an hr course to get a job in hr or organizational behaviour. A anthropology major might have to catch up on courses in hotel management to get a job as an assiatant manager at a hotel and in 3 years make manager and in 10 years maybe regional manager. In which case they are earning several times of what teacher is earning. And that doesn't count all the ways business people double dip. Like when the hotel manager has his wife's catering company cater all the hotels event at a nets another 200k in yearly salary on top of the 150k the company is paying him. Or when he has his adult son open up a cleaning company and makes them the exclusive cleaner for the entire chain in the region and makes another 500k a year. Frankly, I am surprised anyone with a business degree would go near a school, when having a business degree and half decent work effort would get you promoted multiple times in any major company (as most people slack off and do just enough to not get fired)

Usually what we are finding why there is a huge shortage of male teachers (which is problematic because the boys lack role models in the classroom and lack of male shaporones etc.) is because they come, work a few years, supplying, maybe full time. and then realize that they are being underpaid compared to virtually every other public and private sector worker, and they take their stem or business or tech or french degree and leave for the private sector. And your kids are losing out.

Why would someone with a physics degree or math or business degree even want to teach when they can go work for some hedge fund have better working conditions and 3 times the pay? So what ends up happening? Schools draw the worse teachers and least competitive people in the stem, business, foreign language and religious areas. So what do we end up with. Kids who lag behind in math, stem, business, foreign language, and ethics and morality. So we become comparatively uncompetitive on the whole as an economy. We need to bring in immigrants to do the jobs our children cannot do, because they weren't educated properly because we cheaped out on teacher salary. Then our kids grow xenophobic a foreigner is getting a job over them. But the employers don't care, if canadians aren't qualified they'll hire only foreigners.

[Boges]

Good question, there still remain shortages of teachers in french, technology, sciences, math and business and believe it or not religion. The "Too many" teachers usually all come from the psychology, sociology, history and anthropology backgrounds. You know the ones where there is no private market direct competition. Its not these people can't do well in the private sector, they'd just usually have to spend 6 months to a year upgrading and learning the industry. and yes teachers do have high paying jobs to fall back on, but a fall back job isn't instantaneous. So for instance, a psychology major may have to take an hr course to get a job in hr or organizational behaviour. A anthropology major might have to catch up on courses in hotel management to get a job as an assiatant manager at a hotel and in 3 years make manager and in 10 years maybe regional manager. In which case they are earning several times of what teacher is earning. And that doesn't count all the ways business people double dip. Like when the hotel manager has his wife's catering company cater all the hotels event at a nets another 200k in yearly salary on top of the 150k the company is paying him. Or when he has his adult son open up a cleaning company and makes them the exclusive cleaner for the entire chain in the region and makes another 500k a year. Frankly, I am surprised anyone with a business degree would go near a school, when having a business degree and half decent work effort would get you promoted multiple times in any major company (as most people slack off and do just enough to not get fired)

Usually what we are finding why there is a huge shortage of male teachers (which is problematic because the boys lack role models in the classroom and lack of male shaporones etc.) is because they come, work a few years, supplying, maybe full time. and then realize that they are being underpaid compared to virtually every other public and private sector worker, and they take their stem or business or tech or french degree and leave for the private sector. And your kids are losing out.

Why would someone with a physics degree or math or business degree even want to teach when they can go work for some hedge fund have better working conditions and 3 times the pay? So what ends up happening? Schools draw the worse teachers and least competitive people in the stem, business, foreign language and religious areas. So what do we end up with. Kids who lag behind in math, stem, business, foreign language, and ethics and morality. So we become comparatively uncompetitive on the whole as an economy. We need to bring in immigrants to do the jobs our children cannot do, because they weren't educated properly because we cheaped out on teacher salary. Then our kids grow xenophobic a foreigner is getting a job over them. But the employers don't care, if canadians aren't qualified they'll hire only foreigners.

So if I'm getting what you're saying. Teachers who teach STEM topics should get paid comparative to what they "could" make in the private sector. So then pay them more than someone who's teaching Geography or Philosophy. I'm sure the Union would be all for doing that.

And you're only talking about Secondary school teachers at the higher-end. The Elementary school union is probably the most militant. Do people that teach 6 year old how to read have high-paying STEM jobs to fall back on as well?

You highlight the biggest problem with Collective Bargaining. Not all teachers are the same and they don't all teach equally useful information but the Union wants to treat them that way.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Boges

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I can't seem to locate the Ontario CBAs for teachers, but this should give you an idea what the little whiners are looking for...

This is my school board (you only have to roll down a little bit):

http://www.teachers.ab.ca/For%20Members/Salary%20Benefits%20and%20Pension/CollectiveAgreements/Pages/Black-Gold-Regional-Division-No-18-%282012---2016%29.aspx

You managed to prove that Ontario Teachers are paid relatively less than Alberta Teachers.

Ontario Teachers start at 12k less than teachers in Alberta. (54k vs 66k) for 5 years of education, first year teacher.

Alberta Teachers reach the top of their grid in 10 years. Ontario teachers commonly take 12-15.

A regular teacher salary in Alberta also tops out higher. Ontario is 94k. Alberta is 101k.

Interesting.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

[]

Edited April 22, 2015 by MiddleClassCentrist

[MiddleClassCentrist]

So if I'm getting what you're saying. Teachers who teach STEM topics should get paid comparative to what they "could" make in the private sector. So then pay them more than someone who's teaching Geography or Philosophy. I'm sure the Union would be all for doing that.

And you're only talking about Secondary school teachers at the higher-end. The Elementary school union is probably the most militant. Do people that teach 6 year old how to read have high-paying STEM jobs to fall back on as well?

You highlight the biggest problem with Collective Bargaining. Not all teachers are the same and they don't all teach equally useful information but the Union wants to treat them that way.

But when you talk about a teaching surplus and tons of people waiting to get in, you are really only talking about degrees that aren't useful to the private sector. An engineer isn't going to wait 5 years on a supply list to get a job. They are going to get a good paying job with their degree.

We have an over supply of Phys Ed, History, English, and other general arts subjects. Saying there is an oversupply doesn't really address the full issue.

[Boges]

But when you talk about a teaching surplus and tons of people waiting to get in, you are really only talking about degrees that aren't useful to the private sector. An engineer isn't going to wait 5 years on a supply list to get a job. They are going to get a good paying job with their degree.

We have an over supply of Phys Ed, History, English, and other general arts subjects. Saying there is an oversupply doesn't really address the full issue.

Well then why aren't these out-of-work teachers re-training themselves? I'll repeat my point. If not all teachers are equal, then why are the bargaining collectively?

[Hydraboss]

You managed to prove that Ontario Teachers are paid relatively less than Alberta Teachers.

Ontario Teachers start at 12k less than teachers in Alberta. (54k vs 66k) for 5 years of education, first year teacher.

Alberta Teachers reach the top of their grid in 10 years. Ontario teachers commonly take 12-15.

A regular teacher salary in Alberta also tops out higher. Ontario is 94k. Alberta is 101k.

Interesting.

A couple of interesting points to add:

Alberta teachers do not start at the "zero" level on the grid - the first thing that got negotiated was that all brand new teachers start at grid point "1" (given credit for a year of experience that they don't have).

Regarding the 12+k difference in salary starts, I'm curious what the cost of living difference is between Ontario and Alberta in general. Perhaps this would explain the difference?

One "year" teaching experience is calculated as 125 days within a calendar year. This can include the 90 paid days of permitted sick leave they have in the contracts.

A huge number of teachers in my kids high school (approx 750 students) are "coordinators" of this or that, which comes with extra pay for not really doing anything extra. Funnier than that, each "faculty" has a Director (Director of Math, Director of Biological Sciences, Director of Physical Sciences, etc) which comes with a significant bump in pay - this is absolutely hilarious considering, in the case of Biology, there are only two Bio teachers (and they basically take turns being the Director). And people say governments are shady......

Depending on the specific CBA, the school boards pay from 92%-96% of all benefits costs. That's right, the poor teachers have to come up with anywhere from 4-8% of this cost from their own paychecks!!! Poor dears.

edit--> Had to add that with a faculty of around 42, there is a Principal and THREE Assistant Principals (one for each grade plus an "Empowerment Coordinator"...there's that word again!...for each grade). Wow. Must be a stressful workload.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Hydraboss

[H10]

So if I'm getting what you're saying. Teachers who teach STEM topics should get paid comparative to what they "could" make in the private sector. So then pay them more than someone who's teaching Geography or Philosophy. I'm sure the Union would be all for doing that.

And you're only talking about Secondary school teachers at the higher-end. The Elementary school union is probably the most militant. Do people that teach 6 year old how to read have high-paying STEM jobs to fall back on as well?

You highlight the biggest problem with Collective Bargaining. Not all teachers are the same and they don't all teach equally useful information but the Union wants to treat them that way.

Not just stem, do you not want to attract the best english teachers and the best history teachers and the best social science teachers? No I am also talking elementary school teachers. In fact often learning at that stage is even MORE IMPORTANT because if the child learns to read well and has a solid math foundation, they will often keep that throughout life. People who teach 6 year olds how to read may very well indeed have the potential to command very high salaries in the private sector. My mother was a vice president of a major hotel chain in europe before entering teaching. She certainly did have a high paying job onto which she could have chosen to ride out although vice president is not a stem job. The teacher's who want to make a difference quickly learn they can usually do it most with younger kids. Why? Because less of a gap. A 8 year old might just be 1 or 2 years behind in his reading or math skills. He may just need to learn integers and multiplying. But when you get a 15 year old who can't multiply negative numbers or do math (yes they do exist), its pretty much too late to help him/her. They'd have to catch up on 8 years of math if not more. Teachers are not miracle workers.

Collective bargaining is a constitutionally protected right. and whenever you exercise your rights, you are never wrong. The reason you have such a huge gap between teaching skills was already explained to you, it is due to LOW PAY. As I said, you get this gap because only two people can afford to teach. The rich and/or highly skilled who are in education for charitable purposes and often come from well off families. The lesser skilled teachers who are in education often due to limited skill sets or opportunities but still have an interest in teaching. They often come from middle class or poor backgrounds, and aren't the most highly skilled and will take whatever pay is there. They tend to be the lower quality teachers.

As for complaining about teachers getting the same pay but having different skills so what, this occurs in the private sector frequently. I worked in investment banking, some analyst were lazy and were just put on the team because daddy was a client. Didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground and had a solid c transcript if they even graduated high school. And they got the exact same pay as the guy who worked their butt off. And there was no union.

You managed to prove that Ontario Teachers are paid relatively less than Alberta Teachers.

Ontario Teachers start at 12k less than teachers in Alberta. (54k vs 66k) for 5 years of education, first year teacher.

Alberta Teachers reach the top of their grid in 10 years. Ontario teachers commonly take 12-15.

A regular teacher salary in Alberta also tops out higher. Ontario is 94k. Alberta is 101k.

Interesting.

Ah ah ah, not so fast, its not like you get hired full time right away, its more like supply 3-5 years at 30k-40k a year in a major city near poverty levels before you get your 54k. Even in a sales job, you'd be earning 100k after 5 years.

Well then why aren't these out-of-work teachers re-training themselves? I'll repeat my point. If not all teachers are equal, then why are the bargaining collectively?

The teachers who can afford to leave, and who are most skilled are slowly leaving. This is why there are deep shortages don't you worry. We are already seeing signs of the anti-teacher policy showing up in Canada. Lack of skilled works, lack of stem workers, thus the need for large scale immgiration of foreigners who can do stem jobs, disenfranchising canadians from good jobs they should be doing had we not cheaped out on education. Many teachers leave teaching and never look back. The few sticking around are the ones with bills to pay and who can't quit due to having a mortgage and kids in university.

Like I said, you couldn't pay me 100k or even 200k to work in such shit conditions. Their are so many ways you can make 200k in the private sector a year, I am frankly surprised that teaching is capable of drawing any but the least skilled barely literate applicants. Bear in mind when I was a child, the teacher use to be the straight A student who loved school. Now it is changing to the B- student who was just eh about school. You'll see the long term result of canadian education decline. It is likely why are politicians get dumber every year. Where the chinese are spearing no expense to educate their kids, they'll spend the 30k to go to state school in us and pay double the tuition. We will fall behind because we are cheaping out on our kids. You get what you pay for. Pay low wages to teachers and cut their benefits, less than a bus driver and high school drop out cop. Then expect to get low quality teachers who don't give a rats ass about your kids.

I volunteered in grade 12 in an after school program teaching kids chess and the noise levels, the unrulyness, no thank you, you couldn't pay me enough money to stay there. My working conditions are far superior to any teachers and I made 50% more than their top pay grade in my first year of work with far less stress.

Because they have a constitutionally guaranteed right to collective bargaining and 51% + have chosen to exercise that right. Why do other people's rights make you so angry?

[jacee]

Then why is there a line out the door with people that have teaching degrees looking for work? They should all have high-paying banking jobs to fall back on.

The argument about bus drivers and cops doesn't work with me. I find them equally as objectionable because they're part of this Public Sector that is sucking this province dry.

Do you also object to corporate subsidies that suck the province dry?

/canada/corporate-welfare-costs-ontario-3-billion-a-year-report

With direct subsidies, ministers can hand out giant cheques to fledgling factories and stage photo-ops at tech startups something that is not possible with across-the-board tax cuts.

Its not economically smart, but it comes across as politically smart, Mr. Milke said.

.

Edited April 23, 2015 by jacee

[Boges]

Not just stem, do you not want to attract the best english teachers and the best history teachers and the best social science teachers? No I am also talking elementary school teachers. In fact often learning at that stage is even MORE IMPORTANT because if the child learns to read well and has a solid math foundation, they will often keep that throughout life. People who teach 6 year olds how to read may very well indeed have the potential to command very high salaries in the private sector. My mother was a vice president of a major hotel chain in europe before entering teaching. She certainly did have a high paying job onto which she could have chosen to ride out although vice president is not a stem job. The teacher's who want to make a difference quickly learn they can usually do it most with younger kids. Why? Because less of a gap. A 8 year old might just be 1 or 2 years behind in his reading or math skills. He may just need to learn integers and multiplying. But when you get a 15 year old who can't multiply negative numbers or do math (yes they do exist), its pretty much too late to help him/her. They'd have to catch up on 8 years of math if not more. Teachers are not miracle workers.

Collective bargaining is a constitutionally protected right. and whenever you exercise your rights, you are never wrong. The reason you have such a huge gap between teaching skills was already explained to you, it is due to LOW PAY. As I said, you get this gap because only two people can afford to teach. The rich and/or highly skilled who are in education for charitable purposes and often come from well off families. The lesser skilled teachers who are in education often due to limited skill sets or opportunities but still have an interest in teaching. They often come from middle class or poor backgrounds, and aren't the most highly skilled and will take whatever pay is there. They tend to be the lower quality teachers.

As for complaining about teachers getting the same pay but having different skills so what, this occurs in the private sector frequently. I worked in investment banking, some analyst were lazy and were just put on the team because daddy was a client. Didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground and had a solid c transcript if they even graduated high school. And they got the exact same pay as the guy who worked their butt off. And there was no union.

Ah ah ah, not so fast, its not like you get hired full time right away, its more like supply 3-5 years at 30k-40k a year in a major city near poverty levels before you get your 54k. Even in a sales job, you'd be earning 100k after 5 years.

The teachers who can afford to leave, and who are most skilled are slowly leaving. This is why there are deep shortages don't you worry. We are already seeing signs of the anti-teacher policy showing up in Canada. Lack of skilled works, lack of stem workers, thus the need for large scale immgiration of foreigners who can do stem jobs, disenfranchising canadians from good jobs they should be doing had we not cheaped out on education. Many teachers leave teaching and never look back. The few sticking around are the ones with bills to pay and who can't quit due to having a mortgage and kids in university.

Like I said, you couldn't pay me 100k or even 200k to work in such shit conditions. Their are so many ways you can make 200k in the private sector a year, I am frankly surprised that teaching is capable of drawing any but the least skilled barely literate applicants. Bear in mind when I was a child, the teacher use to be the straight A student who loved school. Now it is changing to the B- student who was just eh about school. You'll see the long term result of canadian education decline. It is likely why are politicians get dumber every year. Where the chinese are spearing no expense to educate their kids, they'll spend the 30k to go to state school in us and pay double the tuition. We will fall behind because we are cheaping out on our kids. You get what you pay for. Pay low wages to teachers and cut their benefits, less than a bus driver and high school drop out cop. Then expect to get low quality teachers who don't give a rats ass about your kids.

I volunteered in grade 12 in an after school program teaching kids chess and the noise levels, the unrulyness, no thank you, you couldn't pay me enough money to stay there. My working conditions are far superior to any teachers and I made 50% more than their top pay grade in my first year of work with far less stress.

Because they have a constitutionally guaranteed right to collective bargaining and 51% + have chosen to exercise that right. Why do other people's rights make you so angry?

You're going to have to provide citation that any teacher can easily switch to a 6 figure job anytime they want and they are only teaching because they're independently wealthy or do so out of the goodness of their heart.

I'm sure that Ironclad pension and benefits package teachers get doesn't hurt all that much either.

I would agree that teacher primary students basic skills is a very important role, more so than teaching a 14 year old Shakespeare. But it's not immediately transferrable to the real world.

[Boges]

Do you also object to corporate subsidies that suck the province dry?

/canada/corporate-welfare-costs-ontario-3-billion-a-year-report

With direct subsidies, ministers can hand out giant cheques to fledgling factories and stage photo-ops at tech startups something that is not possible with across-the-board tax cuts.

Its not economically smart, but it comes across as politically smart, Mr. Milke said.

.

You mean like the Auto Industry? Protecting Good Union Jobs by offering subsidies to big American companies so they can stay in Ontario?

[H10]

You're going to have to provide citation that any teacher can easily switch to a 6 figure job anytime they want and they are only teaching because they're independently wealthy or do so out of the goodness of their heart.

I'm sure that Ironclad pension and benefits package teachers get doesn't hurt all that much either.

I would agree that teacher primary students basic skills is a very important role, more so than teaching a 14 year old Shakespeare. But it's not immediately transferrable to the real world.

I never said ANY teacher. The mere fact the pay is so low and so below market, and the general lower in the quality of teachers that you claim to witness, is proof enough.

The ironclad pension which they pay for with their own money. As for benefits, those are all pretty much gone. Mcsquinty took them away.

I don't know where you got this idea that because someone chose to become an English major or minor, and AFTER completing their degree chose to get a second or 3rd degree in education, would thereby have no skills outside of teaching. So if I for instance with a business undergrad but an anthropology minor, chose to go into teaching and went to teacher's college and then taught students for 5 years. You are suggesting that I'd not have immediate transferable skills? Even if I got other job offers to work in banking? I could only teach and ym life would be stained forever? I agree that I'd likely need some upgrading in whatever industry I chose to go back to just to get current which may take 6 months. But it isn't like I can't do anything other than teaching.

Teachers actually have many highly transferable skills that are in large demand, they have good communication skills, writing skills, management, they have to manage a class full of unruly children who their parents cannot even manage half the time. They have to be well organized and meet deadlines for large projects, they must be well co-ordinated, they have to be able to motivate students to do work they don't want to do, and follow a myriad of rules and laws and most of them have a passion for learning and teaching. Do you understand their are people who are called corporate trainers and motivational speakers who train adults and receive 3-4 times the pay as teachers for doing near identical work?

Teachers also have the option to go and tutor in the private sector where they can charge anywhere from as low as $20 to $200 an hour PER STUDENT depending on what the subject is. A teacher who is tutoring mcat or lsat or gmat or sat classes can easily rake in much higher than that depending on how popular and skilled they are at marketing their services. Some teachers may charge 5 students $30 an hour for a small class and effectively earn double their wage and work half the hours.

[Boges]

I never said ANY teacher. The mere fact the pay is so low and so below market, and the general lower in the quality of teachers that you claim to witness, is proof enough.

The ironclad pension which they pay for with their own money. As for benefits, those are all pretty much gone. Mcsquinty took them away.

I don't know where you got this idea that because someone chose to become an English major or minor, and AFTER completing their degree chose to get a second or 3rd degree in education, would thereby have no skills outside of teaching. So if I for instance with a business undergrad but an anthropology minor, chose to go into teaching and went to teacher's college and then taught students for 5 years. You are suggesting that I'd not have immediate transferable skills? Even if I got other job offers to work in banking? I could only teach and ym life would be stained forever? I agree that I'd likely need some upgrading in whatever industry I chose to go back to just to get current which may take 6 months. But it isn't like I can't do anything other than teaching.

Teachers actually have many highly transferable skills that are in large demand, they have good communication skills, writing skills, management, they have to manage a class full of unruly children who their parents cannot even manage half the time. They have to be well organized and meet deadlines for large projects, they must be well co-ordinated, they have to be able to motivate students to do work they don't want to do, and follow a myriad of rules and laws and most of them have a passion for learning and teaching. Do you understand their are people who are called corporate trainers and motivational speakers who train adults and receive 3-4 times the pay as teachers for doing near identical work?

Teachers also have the option to go and tutor in the private sector where they can charge anywhere from as low as $20 to $200 an hour PER STUDENT depending on what the subject is. A teacher who is tutoring mcat or lsat or gmat or sat classes can easily rake in much higher than that depending on how popular and skilled they are at marketing their services. Some teachers may charge 5 students $30 an hour for a small class and effectively earn double their wage and work half the hours.

You're saying what jobs they "could" get. Are they getting these jobs? The wait list should be nil if they're so employable in the private sector. School Boards should be constantly looking for these amazing people that are choosing to teach out of the goodness of their hearts.

I kind see what you're getting at. These teachers are so employable the province should give them whatever they want, they're such a precious asset. Well I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

You still have yet to provide any citation that teachers are these remarkable people that could get a job anywhere they want.

[Pct2017]

Hernaday, I have been reading your digressions with interest. You seem to have the sense that most teachers could take their education and skill sets to the private market and make obscene amounts of money and barely do any work, or at least just enough to keep their jobs. You have lightly tossed out the figure $200k/year as easily attainable. So, let's take a look at that.

Stated as a proportion all Canadian workers, 1.9% make over 200k/year. (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng.htm) Hmmm, you made it sound like those jobs were pretty much everywhere waiting to be plucked.

OK, but that must mean that only a very small percentage of the Canadian workforce is as highly educated as our teachers, right? Well, not really. 26% of Canadian workers have a university degree. http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-012-x/99-012-x2011001-eng.cfm

Well, you say, it must be very well documented that the private sector workers make a tremendous amount of wages more than their poor, slaving public sector brethren, right? Again, not so fast. If you take into account the total remuneration package, then public sector employees make substantially more than those in the private sector. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/public-sector-workers-paid-12-more-than-private-sector-counterparts-fraser-institute-report

I like your pluck, but could you please move on from the idea that teachers could transfer their skills to the private sector and make bajillions more than they do at their current jobs. i think it is safe to say that most teachers are teachers because that is the job that was available to them once they completed their education. Now, if only an anti-whining course at the university level was made mandatory to these teachers.....

[H10]

You're saying what jobs they "could" get. Are they getting these jobs? The wait list should be nil if they're so employable in the private sector. School Boards should be constantly looking for these amazing people that are choosing to teach out of the goodness of their hearts.

I kind see what you're getting at. These teachers are so employable the province should give them whatever they want, they're such a precious asset. Well I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

You still have yet to provide any citation that teachers are these remarkable people that could get a job anywhere they want.

Yes they are getting the jobs, particularly the male teachers (who tend to have the highly needed business and stem backgrounds), they go into teaching work a few years but end up finding out how low the salaries are compared to the private sector. they talk to other teachers who tell them yeah I been working here 20 years and am still making what I made 10 years ago even though I work hard. Most male teachers who are young and talented, look at that and say screw that, you mean I can work a job with less stress, better hours and make twice as much. No one who is a teacher is telling their kids to teach. That is very telling, they tell them to do anything but teach, even the plumber and trades people who work for the board are earning more than the teacher.

The waitlist is nil for no industry even for highly employable people. The people who can afford to teach for charity are quiet limited. How many rich people do you know? Now how many of them want to work a highly stressful, demanding job with low pay. I am not saying that education is the most valuable resource we have. If we want the best teachers, we have to provide at least a COMPETITIVE pay. If the accountant, banker, lawyer, plumber, electrician, bus driver, cop, and fireman all have better long term career outcomes and pay, what do you think the highly in demand people are going to do? Teach for charity or become a plumber making $500 per job? We have been shedding these teachers for a while. The good teachers are still stuck in the system, but it won't stay that way for long, they are retiring out. The teachers use to be the A students who loved school and were top of the class. now with pay cuts, the main people going into teaching aren't like that anymore and its going to get worse. I am not sure why you want to ruin your children's education so badly. Come to think of it, why would you rather pay $7000-$12000 to a private school when paying teachers slightly more money say $110k or $120k which wouldn't even translate as $1000 more on your tax bill to get the best teachers.

[Boges]

If the accountant, banker, lawyer, plumber, electrician, bus driver, cop, and fireman all have better long term career outcomes and pay, what do you think the highly in demand people are going to do? Teach for charity or become a plumber making $500 per job?

As they should. Those are recession proof jobs where the demand is actually high. If I had my life to do over again, I'd get into a trade like that.

You're going after plumbers now? They don't deserve what they get?

The thing about teachers is that enrolment is actually declining in many parts of the province so the demand for them is actually going down.

[H10]

Has it ever occured to you, not everyone is reporting their incomes?

Teacher's don't have 1 degree, they have 2. How many canadians have 2 degrees?

Teachers are among the lowest paid public sector employees and have less benefits than private employees. I have more sick days than teachers, and I work in finance. teacher's pay their own pension, so its not a benefit, teacher's are not even eligible for half the government benefits.

Hernaday, I have been reading your digressions with interest. You seem to have the sense that most teachers could take their education and skill sets to the private market and make obscene amounts of money and barely do any work, or at least just enough to keep their jobs. You have lightly tossed out the figure $200k/year as easily attainable. So, let's take a look at that.

Stated as a proportion all Canadian workers, 1.9% make over 200k/year. (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng.htm) Hmmm, you made it sound like those jobs were pretty much everywhere waiting to be plucked.

OK, but that must mean that only a very small percentage of the Canadian workforce is as highly educated as our teachers, right? Well, not really. 26% of Canadian workers have a university degree. http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-012-x/99-012-x2011001-eng.cfm

Well, you say, it must be very well documented that the private sector workers make a tremendous amount of wages more than their poor, slaving public sector brethren, right? Again, not so fast. If you take into account the total remuneration package, then public sector employees make substantially more than those in the private sector. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/public-sector-workers-paid-12-more-than-private-sector-counterparts-fraser-institute-report

I like your pluck, but could you please move on from the idea that teachers could transfer their skills to the private sector and make bajillions more than they do at their current jobs. i think it is safe to say that most teachers are teachers because that is the job that was available to them once they completed their education. Now, if only an anti-whining course at the university level was made mandatory to these teachers.....

The highly skilled teachers certainly can and do make the big dollars like Jack Ma ceo of alibaba. it is true the quality of teachers has gone down in the past 10-15 years, and many of them that is all they can land. I didn't deny it but said precisely that. And the reason for that is because you've gutted their wages. Who in their right mind who would want to teach now?

[H10]

As they should. Those are recession proof jobs where the demand is actually high. If I had my life to do over again, I'd get into a trade like that.

You're going after plumbers now? They don't deserve what they get?

The thing about teachers is that enrolment is actually declining in many parts of the province so the demand for them is actually going down.

O so when a recession comes, your children don't need education, you just pull them from school?

Its not that other jobs don't deserve what they get, it is that teachers are grossly underpaid. The economy is in a recession everything is in decline. That being said it depends where in the province, we are still growing, in toronto and gta the demand is higher than ever, they put up a new school all over the gta.

[Boges]

O so when a recession comes, your children don't need education, you just pull them from school?

Its not that other jobs don't deserve what they get, it is that teachers are grossly underpaid. The economy is in a recession everything is in decline. That being said it depends where in the province, we are still growing, in toronto and gta the demand is higher than ever, they put up a new school all over the gta.

Because they're in the public sector, they're also recession proof.

Teachers are not under paid IMHO, but proper pay is a subjective term. What you've done is imply that people that could go into a REAL market based industry but choose to teach are reflective of the entire industry. They're not.

Toronto has many schools that are half empty. Where the demand is, are in the suburbs in the outer GTA (Peel, Halton, Durham etc). And many spiffy new school are being built in response.

[drummindiver]

Nobody said there wasn't a wage issue. Of course there is. It's collective bargaining.

It's pretty standard to get annual raises everywhere.

What's your point?

.

Standard? In this day and age? hahahahaha. Only if you are a teacher..or police. Or other public union member in Ontario.

[Pct2017]

Has it ever occured to you, not everyone is reporting their incomes?

Teacher's don't have 1 degree, they have 2. How many canadians have 2 degrees?

Teachers are among the lowest paid public sector employees and have less benefits than private employees. I have more sick days than teachers, and I work in finance. teacher's pay their own pension, so its not a benefit, teacher's are not even eligible for half the government benefits.

The highly skilled teachers certainly can and do make the big dollars like Jack Ma ceo of alibaba. it is true the quality of teachers has gone down in the past 10-15 years, and many of them that is all they can land. I didn't deny it but said precisely that. And the reason for that is because you've gutted their wages. Who in their right mind who would want to teach now?

Sorry, I don't have a clue who Jack Ma is or what Alibaba does. But it must be important to you.

OK, you are going to have to back up some of you statements with hard data. The biggie here is sick days and pensions. No, not everyone in private work gets sick days much less more than what teachers get. Having said that, I actually do not begrudge a teacher sick days. They are exposed to every bug that children get. What I do begrudge is the ability to carry sick days forward.

Now for your whopper. Yes, teachers do contribute to their pensions, but no, they do not fund it entirely. As a taxpayer, I am a bit shocked that you would not be aware of that. The best example I can give you is for the BC teachers. They contribute about 14% of their wages to their defined benefit pension and the taxpayers contribute another 16%. Plus, the taxpayers guarantee that there will be enough money in the pension fund no matter what happens in the markets. Can you show me an example in the private sector of this? Defined benefit pensions simply are obsolete anywhere but in the public sector. And they should be obsolete there also.

Can you please give us an example of what government benefits teachers are not eligible for? And for the love of God, please do not trot out EI because teachers are not laid off in the summer. THEY ARE ON HOLIDAYS. So, what are they not eligible for? CPP, OAP, welfare?

Finally, there is you statement "Who in their right mind who (sic) would want to teach right now?" Again, could you please provide facts that show that there is a shortage of teachers, which is what your statement implies. Last time I looked, there were dozens of fresh young teachers coming out of teacher school for every one available job. Are all of the shiny young minds not right? Are they mentally challenged when they graduate teacher school? If that is what you are saying, then I think you will be getting a severe scolding from one Young Socialist.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Pct2017

[Hydraboss]

...I think you will be getting a severe scolding from one Young Socialist.

I believe they'll just have that conversation inside their head. Good lord this multiple-screen name thing is getting out of control.

[jacee]

You mean like the Auto Industry? Protecting Good Union Jobs by offering subsidies to big American companies so they can stay in Ontario?

So you are a supporter of corporate welfare lining CEO pockets ... but you crab about teachers' pay?

The credibility of your concern about good use of public money just dissolved.

.

[Boges]

So you are a supporter of corporate welfare lining CEO pockets ... but you crab about teachers' pay?

The credibility of your concern about good use of public money just dissolved.

.

That's cherry picking where the money goes to fit your opinion.

You think corporate welfare goes straight to the CEO? And you think all the money spent on education goes to the teacher?

I think teachers do get a raw deal because of all the administration at the board level. But the solution isn't to demand for the province to throw more money into education (The provinces second largest expense), it's to address the inefficiencies at the board level.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Boges