GostHacked Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 No I do not. I think they are an obstacle or impediment to peace. As I said, we agree on the settlements issue. Thanks. Quote
Argus Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 Comment on the videos posted and IDF's actions. Give it a shot. Let the world know how you think it's okay. I don't think it's okay. But neither do I think they're acting under orders. What I think is that when you are hated all your life you hate back. When you are threatened all your life you might well lash out. It's tough being at war, even tougher when there's never a peace during your entire life. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Shady Posted March 17, 2015 Report Posted March 17, 2015 There is nothing fair about dropping a bomb on a building, knowing innocent women, children (and men) are going to get killed. This is something Israel has been doing for a while.It's perfectly fair when that building is being used, purposely, by terrorists to hide and wage war behind. The people responsible for their deaths are those who used them as shields and pawns in their game of chicken. Quote
GostHacked Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 It's perfectly fair when that building is being used, purposely, by terrorists to hide and wage war behind. The people responsible for their deaths are those who used them as shields and pawns in their game of chicken. One could look at the settlements as a form of human shields. And they are being used as political pawns. If the settlements get attacked, Israel can use it as an excuse for more clamp down in the occupied territories. Quote
Rue Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) The settlements are a complex issue. Are they a shield. I don't think that is too unfair an attempt to offer one purpose. I see Ghost's point. They are used as a political shield or device in one sense yes. For extremist right wing Israelis yes. They symbolize for them the belief that all of Judea and Somaria from the Biblical map, in their mind belongs to Israel and was wrongfully occupied by the Arab world. In that sense they have become a symbol for what is called religious Zionists, those Zionists who mix beliefs from the old testament with the concept of Jews having their own state. Those Zionists are still a minoritty in Israel and in the world, but they are clearly of importance to Netanyahu who no doubt made comments in the heated final moments of the election to get their vote and he succeeded in that it appears he was able to swing over votes from other right wing parties. There's about if we round out the numbers say 300 to 400 thousand Israeli settlers on the West Bank. One third would be these religious Zionists who are a living symbol of the Jewish identity for religious Zionists. You could call them a shield, I would call them a visible target and visible irritant to Palestinians and in particular they are a target of extremist terrorists and used by extremist terrorists as well as the hate Israel entourage on this board as justification to deny an Israeli state and paint all Israelis extremist. Of that one third of the settlers who might be classified as religious Zionists, the vast majority are not terrorist. The majority would not resist being moved if the majority of Israelis asked them to and it really was part of a concrete settlement. Probably about 20% would resist and how tough would that resistance be, I do not know. One third are not political at all. They are what we call every day shmoes. They are like you and me. They just are trying to live in peace and pay their bills, they don't hate Palestinians. They ended up where they are because of tax incentives and job incentives. With proper compensation they would move. Then there are the other third who live in a la la land. They believe Israel as a state can not be created until the Messiah returns and since he has not, the current Israeli state is an abomination. These people live a life that tries to be the same as it was in the ancient days. They are I suppose like the Amish are to Christianity. They live seperate and apart, shun any modern phenomena, and live in a self imposed ghetto near and around Hebron and some other pockets. Arafat, Abbas, the PA, Hamas, Hezbollah, all htargetted them as the enemy as well, not withstanding Iran once brought some ot them to the anti-holocaust symposium in Iran to bad mouth Israel as well as non Israeli Jews not just Israelis. These Jews are not Zionist and do not consider other Jews, Jews. Abbas said they can not remain in a Palestinian sharia law state and would have to move. Now the settlements started off as early warning posts for incoming terrorists. They provided surveillance on terrorist cell movement, and they often intercepted terrorists before they could get into pre 1967 Israel. However moden satellite technology, drones, small almost iinvisible listening posts and the security wall have made them obsolete or no longer necessary as much as they once were. The rhetoric of Netanyahu or any Israeli leader is only that, Behind closed doors, Israeli leaders of the right and left have made it clear if terrorists disarmed it would then enable the IDF to pull out of 98% of the West Bank and have no need to patrol the coast of Gaza or engage in any of the other things it does now to try contain terrorism. They also provided a time line and plan on how to disarm terrorists and replace them with a police force to then work in union with Jordanian and Israeli security forces. Arafat reejected and ridiculed that offer. This plan proposed an eventual economjc confederation or free trade economy between Jordan, Israel and a second Palestinian nation other than Jordan. It would have enabled Palestinians to travel to Jordan or Israel for international flights or for work with an expedited passport or id system to enable movement through each of the three countries. The problem is Hamas as well as the PA made it clear they will never accept any Israeli Jewish state and believes all of the West Bank, Jordan and Israel as well as Gaza be a sharia law Muslim state with NO Jews of any kind. So focusing on Netanyahu is besides the point. No Israeli of any political stripe can enter into peace when there is no peace partner and none exist at this time. Mr. Abbas has repeated over and over again he will never accept or recognize a Jewish state, and he will never recognize a state where Israel is today, unless it first becomes majority Muslim. Abbas has stated in speeches, the only solution is to take back Israel and merge it with his sharia law Palestinian state and Jordan as well. Jordan rejects the positions of Hamas and the PA as much as Israeli does. Now that Obama made it clear he and Erdogan are failed Muslim Brotherhood supporters who have run to Iran panicking over their failure to control Sunni extremist cells they made, he is written off by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, UAE, Kuwait and Morrocco. In fact it is China who now play a very subtle behind the seens balancer of powers by supporting Iran but at the same time also entering a military alliance with Israel-this huge factor prevents a war with Iran by Israel. The fact China is a huge ally of both Israel and Iran means it can keep them apart. Likewise Chancellor Merkel filled a void when Obama pulled the US off world stage and screwed up in both Ukraine and the Middle East. She signalled Iran and Putin in one act, by sending state of the art submarines to Israel that they better think twice about engaging in a naval war blocking international ship movements off its coast or thinking Germany can not step up to the plate if Putin tries to manipulate Iran to take attention away from Ukraine. Merkel's move was welcomed by India whose merchant fleet was being harassed by the Iranian navy. That restored some balance created by the vacuum created by Obama's failed Muslim Brotherhood alliance and now his engaging in oral intercourse with Iran hoping to use them to offset the damage he and Erdogan did in creating Sunni extremist cells that then turned on both of these idiots. China and Germany have proven the biggest outside stabilizers in the Middle East with very quiet behind the closed door actions. As for Palestinians, right now they are fed up with Hamas, Hezbollah, the PA, Israel, Egypt, Iran. everyone and anyone. They literally see themselves as having no allies, none. They know they are pawns used by Muslim extremists for those extremists other agendae. All one has to do is read the Palestinian press and read the comments from its citizens to know this. Palestinians are detested in the Arab world-they are in that sense the Jews of the Arab world. They are hated for the same reason as Jews are-they do not know their place and do not define their religion by religious principles of Islam, but as a non religious national identity for the most part. In the Arab world today, you are caught between old time conservative monarchies propping puppet oil kingdoms, severe military dictators often corupt and extremist Mulsim religious terrorists. The illietracy rate remains at over 75%, life expectancy is down to 55 years of age in Syria, and we have a new generation of psychologically damaged children coming out of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan, Mali, Nigeria, Iran, Pakistan to name but a few nations with violent extremist Islam. On the other hand moderate Muslims in Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria, have indicated they exist and smoulder even if they are controlled. The fact is there could be civil wars in any Arab country at any given time.The fact is oil prices are unstable and will not take down the US dollar as Russia and China had hoped but will cause a domino effect in Russia and China and take down their economies. Its already started. The social revolutions in Russia and China as their economies totally dependent on petro dollars not coming in, have already started. Huge riots in Hong Kong will not go away and are threatening to spread. Food protests in Russia have started. Open assassinations in Russia have started. In the big picture it won't matter who the Israeli leader is. The fact is Palestinians and Israelis, the ordinary shmoes, have to find away to avoid their own politicians and the terrorists who claim to speak for them, and find a way to get to each other and come up with a de facto peace plan in spite of these terrorists and politicians. Edited March 18, 2015 by Rue Quote
Big Guy Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 I believe that the destruction of Palestine will mean the destruction of Israel. The Israeli people have elected someone who is determined that there will be only one state - Israel. That means that the Palestinians have to be subjugated through absorption or removed through execution or displacement. The Israeli position is isolating itself from more and more of the rest of the world. The Palestinians won the last public relations war and more people in the West are rejecting Israeli policy and actions. If Israel creates a situation of a military confrontation with other countries in the Middle East it will soon realize just how much support it has lost. There is a good chance that the Harper government will lose its majority in the next election and I hope it leads to Canada returning to its pre-Harper foreign policy maintaining an arms length from the aggressive Israeli policy. Israel is on a route to another military confrontation and Canada should have nothing to do with it or with Israel. They are creating their own problems and let them resolve those problems on their own. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 Actually, Canada is increasing its economic and political support for Israel. If any nation knows about subjugating the local "aboriginals" to form a nation, certainly it is Canada (or the U.S.A.). Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 Actually, Canada is increasing its economic and political support for Israel. If any nation knows about subjugating the local "aboriginals" to form a nation, certainly it is Canada (or the U.S.A.). Never fear, we get fair and honest reportage of domestic and foreign affairs from the CBC. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 It's perfectly fair when that building is being used, purposely, by terrorists Except that time and time again it has been proven through investigations by different bodies that in many occasions, the buildings were not being used. This is just propaganda sent out by the Zionist propaganda machine and repeated by its useful idiots. This information has been gift wrapped and presented to you several times on this board, yet you continue to repeat the misinformation. I am wondering how does one respond to a person like you, who refuses to acknowledge the information and instead decides to repeat misinformation. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Hudson Jones Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) The settlements are a complex issue. Are they a shield. It's colonization and land theft. It's part of the plan for Greater Israel. This is the reason Israel has never declared its borders. Because they want to continue to expand and take as much as land as possible. Kind of like a virus that's not controlled. Too many people making money from the settlements and too many people making money from the tension and resistance from the Palestinians and from the disproportional Israeli attacks on Palestinians. It's an ugly, rotting system that will continue until the voice from the world becomes too strong. Much like how the world came together to resist Apartheid South Africa. Edited March 18, 2015 by Hudson Jones Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
jacee Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 Rue said: Israeli leaders of the right and left have made it clear if terrorists disarmed it would then enable the IDF to pull out of 98% of the West Bank and have no need to patrol the coast of Gaza or engage in any of the other things it does now to try contain terrorism. Palestine will always have the right to bear arms to defend itself. What then Rue? . Quote
Rue Posted March 18, 2015 Report Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) Oh are you back communicating with me Jacee? Lol. I lose track. Obviously a Palestinian state if one ever does come about will require Israel to pull out to a defensible border.Even the Ambassador to Canada from Israel today said take whata Netanyahu said about Palestine with a grain of salt.He cannot afford to alienate the gulf States, Germany or Canada or for that matter China all behind closed doors who have a lot of influence on Israeli foreign policy. So I will start there and say we have nothing happening until Obama leaves other than Ntanyahu balsting away at Obama and Iran with words and behind closed doors telling Abbas one thing while stating another in public and vice versa.Both play rhetoric over Hamas. Both sound tougher then they are to try prevent Hamas from calling Abbas a turncoat and to prevent radicals within the PA from overturning Abbas. That said, I have no idea what you are referring to but I will anwer yoyu and Moonlight at the same time. Obviously if Palestine is to be a second Palestine state other than Jordan on the West Bank and in Gaza it would need a military. When Netanyahu or any Israeli, Egyptian or Jordanian talks about disarmament of Palestine they do not mean a state army they mean terrorist cells. There is a huge difference between a state army and a terrorist cell. Huge. Let's not suggest they are one and the sameas you are.Hamas is no conventional army. Neither is Al Asqa Martyr Brigade just like the iRA was never the army of the Republic of Ireland (Eire). As part of all peace treaties presented to Arafat was the offer of both Israel and Jordan to train his police force and to create the equivalentof a state army. Arafat chose to violate that and show not jus Israel, but Jordan and Egypt once again he lied. He chose to deliberately violate the accords he signed and arm terrorist cells that attacked his own paramilitary forceof police and killed them as well as Egyptian and Jordanian soldiers. So to answer your question, as long as terrorists hold their own citizens in Palestine hostage, nothing will change and you know that. Its no different then how the IRA had to disarm before any talks could come about. But hey in your world Hamas and other terror cells are legitimate agents of representation of political will. Edited March 18, 2015 by Rue Quote
drummindiver Posted March 29, 2015 Report Posted March 29, 2015 I believe that the destruction of Palestine will mean the destruction of Israel. The Israeli people have elected someone who is determined that there will be only one state - Israel. That means that the Palestinians have to be subjugated through absorption or removed through execution or displacement. The Israeli position is isolating itself from more and more of the rest of the world. The Palestinians won the last public relations war and more people in the West are rejecting Israeli policy and actions. If Israel creates a situation of a military confrontation with other countries in the Middle East it will soon realize just how much support it has lost. There is a good chance that the Harper government will lose its majority in the next election and I hope it leads to Canada returning to its pre-Harper foreign policy maintaining an arms length from the aggressive Israeli policy. Israel is on a route to another military confrontation and Canada should have nothing to do with it or with Israel. They are creating their own problems and let them resolve those problems on their own. Wow. I think many others in the area have "agressive Israli policy". And not the sort you are referring to. btw, jacee is so worried about questions from Amnesty. Here's Amnesty's recent take. .https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2015/03/palestinian-armed-groups-killed-civilians-on-both-sides-in-2014-gaza-conflict/ Quote
marcus Posted March 29, 2015 Author Report Posted March 29, 2015 Wow. I think many others in the area have "agressive Israli policy". And not the sort you are referring to. btw, jacee is so worried about questions from Amnesty. Here's Amnesty's recent take. .https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2015/03/palestinian-armed-groups-killed-civilians-on-both-sides-in-2014-gaza-conflict/ We all know that the recent attack on Gaza was severely one-sided. Just because Hamas' indiscriminate rocket attacks are war crimes, it doesn't mean that this is a 50/50 situation and that one crime cancels the other. Yes, I agree with Amnesty's take too drummindiver: At least 1,585 Palestinian civilians, including more than 530 children, were killed in Gaza, and at least 16,245 homes were destroyed or rendered uninhabitable by Israeli attacks during the conflict, some of which also amounted to war crimes. “The devastating impact of Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians during the conflict is undeniable, but violations by one side in a conflict can never justify violations by their opponents,” said Philip Luther. “The fact that Palestinian armed groups appear to have carried out war crimes by firing indiscriminate rockets and mortars does not absolve the Israeli forces from their obligations under international humanitarian law. The war wrought an unprecedented level of death, destruction and injury on the 1.8 million people in the Gaza Strip, and some of the Israeli attacks must be investigated as war crimes. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
drummindiver Posted March 29, 2015 Report Posted March 29, 2015 We all know that the recent attack on Gaza was severely one-sided. Just because Hamas' indiscriminate rocket attacks are war crimes, it doesn't mean that this is a 50/50 situation and that one crime cancels the other. Yes, I agree with Amnesty's take too drummindiver: At least 1,585 Palestinian civilians, including more than 530 children, were killed in Gaza, and at least 16,245 homes were destroyed or rendered uninhabitable by Israeli attacks during the conflict, some of which also amounted to war crimes. “The devastating impact of Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians during the conflict is undeniable, but violations by one side in a conflict can never justify violations by their opponents,” said Philip Luther. “The fact that Palestinian armed groups appear to have carried out war crimes by firing indiscriminate rockets and mortars does not absolve the Israeli forces from their obligations under international humanitarian law. The war wrought an unprecedented level of death, destruction and injury on the 1.8 million people in the Gaza Strip, and some of the Israeli attacks must be investigated as war crimes. Right. Highlight and bold. During the 50 days of hostilities referred to in Israel as Operation Protective Edge, between 8 July and 26 August 2014, Palestinian armed groups fired thousands of unguided rockets and mortars towards Israel, in many cases directing them towards Israeli civilians and civilian objects, in violation of international law. The conduct of Palestinian armed groups, including firing from residential areas and the use of indiscriminate munitions that cannot be accurately directed at a military target, also endangered civilians in the Gaza Strip. In one case, the available evidence indicates that a rocket fired by a Palestinian armed group on 28 July 2014 killed 11 children and two adults in the al-Shati refugee camp, north-west of Gaza City. This report details four cases investigated by Amnesty International in which mortar and rocket attacks by Palestinian armed groups resulted in the death of five civilians in southern Israel and injured others. It also analyses the attack on the al-Shati refugee camp on 28 July, and the conduct of Palestinian armed groups within the Gaza Strip in their operations against Israel during the 50-day conflict. The report does not address the summary killings of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip by Hamas forces for alleged “collaboration” with Israel during the July/August 2014 conflict, which will be the subject of a forthcoming report. Quote
marcus Posted March 29, 2015 Author Report Posted March 29, 2015 Right. Highlight and bold. During the 50 days of hostilities referred to in Israel as Operation Protective Edge, between 8 July and 26 August 2014, Palestinian armed groups fired thousands of unguided rockets and mortars towards Israel, in many cases directing them towards Israeli civilians and civilian objects, in violation of international law. The conduct of Palestinian armed groups, including firing from residential areas and the use of indiscriminate munitions that cannot be accurately directed at a military target, also endangered civilians in the Gaza Strip. In one case, the available evidence indicates that a rocket fired by a Palestinian armed group on 28 July 2014 killed 11 children and two adults in the al-Shati refugee camp, north-west of Gaza City. This report details four cases investigated by Amnesty International in which mortar and rocket attacks by Palestinian armed groups resulted in the death of five civilians in southern Israel and injured others. It also analyses the attack on the al-Shati refugee camp on 28 July, and the conduct of Palestinian armed groups within the Gaza Strip in their operations against Israel during the 50-day conflict. The report does not address the summary killings of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip by Hamas forces for alleged “collaboration” with Israel during the July/August 2014 conflict, which will be the subject of a forthcoming report. We are in agreement. Let's investigate and punish those who have committed war crimes. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
jacee Posted March 30, 2015 Report Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Agreed. And Palestine agreed to that too when they approached the ICC. BUT ...Israel has 'ways' of getting it's way ... /Arab-Israeli-Conflict/In-exchange-for-freed-tax-funds-PA-wont-pursue-Israel-over-settlements-at-ICC- Palestinian Authority will formally join the International Criminal Court on April 1, but following Israels decision on Friday to release frozen tax revenues is not expected at this time to take steps against Israel in the ICC regarding settlement construction. In addition, The Jerusalem Post has learned that while the ICC prosecutor has at the PAs request opened a preliminary examination on alleged Israeli war crimes during Operation Protective Edge over the summer, the PA is not expected at this time to take additional legal steps in the ICC regarding the Gaza operation. Edited March 30, 2015 by jacee Quote
Rue Posted March 30, 2015 Report Posted March 30, 2015 Jacee please explain what you mean by: "BUT ...Israel has 'ways' of getting it's way ..." Oh share your allegation. Finish what you started. Quote
Je suis Omar Posted March 31, 2015 Report Posted March 31, 2015 ...Our hope is that the council will continue to shift its focus away from Israel and really focus on the bad human rights violators throughout the world, people like us... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/03/world/middleeast/united-nations-kerry-israel-iran.html?_r=0 Quote
Je suis Omar Posted March 31, 2015 Report Posted March 31, 2015 It's perfectly fair when that building is being used, purposely, by terrorists to hide and wage war behind. The people responsible for their deaths are those who used them as shields and pawns in their game of chicken. That is a canned response. Is it plagiarism if one shuffles the words a tad? Quote
Je suis Omar Posted March 31, 2015 Report Posted March 31, 2015 Suicide bombings included women....not so innocent after all. Ratio doesn't mean squat....attack Israel....get bombed 100X over in return. Americans have such a fabulous sense of proportionality. Just ask the Laotians, the Vietnamese, the Koreans, the people of Diego Garcia, the Nicaraguans, the people of the Philippines, the Cambodians, the ... . Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 31, 2015 Report Posted March 31, 2015 Americans have such a fabulous sense of proportionality. Just ask the Laotians, the Vietnamese, the Koreans, the people of Diego Garcia, the Nicaraguans, the people of the Philippines, the Cambodians, the ... . ....don't forget the British, Confederates, "First Nations", Germans, Japanese, Italians, Serbs, Somalis, and Haitians. Salute! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Je suis Omar Posted March 31, 2015 Report Posted March 31, 2015 What's so special about women and children? We know, George/Dick, nothing at all special about them if they're Iraqi or Afghan or Nicaraguan or Guatemalan or ... . Don't "human rights" apply to men ? Now that sounds downright odd coming from your mouths. Quote
Je suis Omar Posted March 31, 2015 Report Posted March 31, 2015 ....don't forget the British, Confederates, "First Nations", Germans, Japanese, Italians, Serbs, Somalis, and Haitians. Salute! We've hardly scratched the surface of your brutality, Dick. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 31, 2015 Report Posted March 31, 2015 We know, George/Dick, nothing at all special about them if they're Iraqi or Afghan or Nicaraguan or Guatemalan or ... . Thanks Jesus....they sure ain't special when it comes to abortions. God bless ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.