Has backing Wynne backfired on the Public Service Unions?

[Boges]

Told Ya So!

Ontario loves being lied to.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2015/02/17/ontario-public-sector-workers-protest-against-wage-freeze.html

Hundreds of public sector workers from across the province gathered at Queen’s Park Tuesday to protest the austerity measures they say the province wants to impose on them.

Without a contract since Dec. 31, the union is decrying the government's contract proposal of four more years with no wage increase. OPSEU, representing 35,000 provincial employees, received a strike mandate of more than 90 per cent from its members in early November.

Speaking the crowd in -15 Celsius temperatures, union president Warren (Smokey) Thomas delivered a message to Premier Kathleen Wynne and Treasury Board President Deb Matthews.

“Come to the bargaining table, get all those Draconian concessions off the table, bargain fairly (and) you will get a contract,” he said.

Thomas said instead of being a friend of public sector workers the Liberals “come with something worse than (former Tory leader) Tim Hudak or (former Tory premier) Mike Harris or any right-winger could have ever dreamed up.”

“I truly believe Kathleen Wynne thought ‘we can make OPSEU fold up real fast’ and they were wrong,” he said adding, “we didn’t pick this fight but we will damn well finish this fight.”

Hudak was being honest. The Ontario Public Service has gotten out of control and Ontario is sinking in debt. They backed Wynne and relegated the PCs to the cheap seats for 4 years. But everyone with a functioning brain knew that Wynne would have to do something to try and control spending. Now these Unions are acting shocked that the Province is playing hardball. They have no one to blame but themselves. They're the ones that campaigned for Wynne hard.

I personally find this all quite amusing.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Boges

[Smallc]

It was always in her plan to put controls on spending that would make conservatives blush. I don't know why no one noticed it.

[Shady]

The biggest problem that the province is going to have to deal with is the legacy costs of people that have recently retired and that will over the next 5 years. It's a huge spike.

[overthere]

I predict Wynne will fold like a cheap tent.

[Derek 2.0]

And just wait until she brings forth her Trudeau carbon tax...........

[Ash74]

Nobody wanted a Liberal majority. The unions were thinking the NDP would keep the Liberals as close to honest as a Liberal can get but the scare tactics gave Wynne a majority which was the worst possible outcome of that election.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not surprising....Ontario is up to its eyeballs in debt. For all those who just love Yankee comparisons:

Despite the province’s smaller size, Ontario’s $267.6 billion Cdn outstanding government debt is higher than California’s $144.8 billion US. And as a share of the economy, Ontario’s bonded debt (the part of a government’s debt represented by bonds) is 40.9 per cent compared to California’s 7.6 per cent — meaning that Ontario’s debt when expressed this way is more than five times larger.

On a per-person basis the story doesn’t get any better. Every Ontarian owes $20,166 Cdn in government debt compared to $3,844 US for every California resident.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/Ontario-more-indebted-than-California-251790921.html

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/Ontario-more-indebted-than-California-251790921.html

[Ash74]

That is an old article. The debt will be close to 325 billion this year.

We are so screwed

[jacee]

The biggest problem that the province is going to have to deal with is the legacy costs of people that have recently retired and that will over the next 5 years. It's a huge spike.

The province's contributions to employee pensions are made during employmen.

Employer and employee contributions are invested and pensions are administered by an arms length agency.

"legacy costs"?

I think that refers to a company that FAILS to make the scheduled contributions, and sells out to another company that inherits the problem.

.

[Michael Hardner]

The biggest problem that the province is going to have to deal with is the legacy costs of people that have recently retired and that will over the next 5 years. It's a huge spike.

I echo Jacee's questions on this. Why would that be a 'spike' ? I think it may have the opposite effect. Once somebody retires, big salaries are dumped off the payroll as well as high pension contributions and benefits.

[Shady]

I echo Jacee's questions on this. Why would that be a 'spike' ? I think it may have the opposite effect. Once somebody retires, big salaries are dumped off the payroll as well as high pension contributions and benefits.

The legacy costs are more and more retirees, supported by fewer workers. Unfortunately public sector pension plans are somewhat of a pyramid scheme. They're defined benefit, instead of defined contribution. In otherwords, the beneficiaries don't pay nearly enough into the plans as oppose to what they get out. The tax payer is left footing the bill, and the gap between the two. The salaries really aren't the problem. In fact, I'm sure provincial governments would much rather pay higher salaries up front, with reduced liabilities on the back end.

[Bob Macadoo]

The legacy costs are more and more retirees, supported by fewer workers. Unfortunately public sector pension plans are somewhat of a pyramid scheme. They're defined benefit, instead of defined contribution. In otherwords, the beneficiaries don't pay nearly enough into the plans as oppose to what they get out. The tax payer is left footing the bill, and the gap between the two. The salaries really aren't the problem. In fact, I'm sure provincial governments would much rather pay higher salaries up front, with reduced liabilities on the back end.

Have you actually read up on the solvency of OPSEU's plan? Plan manager's dream of the returns public sector funds give.

[AngusThermopyle]

That may be true Bob. However it doesn't negate the truth of what Shady said. Tax payers pump in a lot more money than the employee's contribute themselves.

[Bob Macadoo]

That may be true Bob. However it doesn't negate the truth of what Shady said. Tax payers pump in a lot more money than the employee's contribute themselves.

Ummmm no. I believe for OPSEU its a 50/50 split. In either case that has nothing to do with Shady's point. He was under the impression the plan is underfunded and that the managers have no clue baby boomers are going to retire and it will go tits up from all that drawing.

[Michael Hardner]

And I'm still wondering if the 'spike' we're talking about now refers to all Ontarian boomers who are retiring (which makes more sense) or the public sector employees. I maintain that the province gets a financial benefit from retirement, in that workers are replaced (if they are indeed replaced at all) by cheaper talent.

[Boges]

And I'm still wondering if the 'spike' we're talking about now refers to all Ontarian boomers who are retiring (which makes more sense) or the public sector employees. I maintain that the province gets a financial benefit from retirement, in that workers are replaced (if they are indeed replaced at all) by cheaper talent.

I'm thinking a lot of the RAGE! coming from the likes of OPSEU is that many of these jobs aren't being replaced with brand new unionized employees. And if they are, they certainly won't be entitled to the same benefits and/or pay scale.

Attrition FTW, which might I add, is how Hudak said he'd eliminate many of the 100,000 public service jobs he said he would during the election that got everyone panicking.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Boges

[Black Dog]

I'm thinking a lot of the RAGE! coming from the likes of OPSEU is that many of these jobs aren't being replaced with brand new unionized employees. And if they are, they certainly won't be entitled to the same benefits and/or pay scale.

Attrition FTW, which might I add, is how Hudak said he'd eliminate many of the 100,000 public service jobs he said he would during the election that got everyone panicking.

I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact the unions have made a lot of concessions in the name of austerity (eg wage freezes, benefit cuts) and are still being told there's no money in the kitty despite the government finding plenty of cash for shady dealings around gas plants etc.

[Boges]

I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact the unions have made a lot of concessions in the name of austerity (eg wage freezes, benefit cuts) and are still being told there's no money in the kitty despite the government finding plenty of cash for shady dealings around gas plants etc.

You mean the Gas Plant Issue that the electorate completely ignored by giving the Liberals a healthy majority?

It seems people on the left only care about the Gas Plants in between elections during contract negotiations. But during an election, it's met with a loud yawn.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Boges

[overthere]

And I'm still wondering if the 'spike' we're talking about now refers to all Ontarian boomers who are retiring (which makes more sense) or the public sector employees. I maintain that the province gets a financial benefit from retirement, in that workers are replaced (if they are indeed replaced at all) by cheaper talent.

Isn't there a double whammy? When the economy slows, companies cut back and people retire earlier than planned. They are not replaced. Downsizing by attrition. And there is a wave of boomers leaving anyway, aside from the vagaries of the economy.

I don';t know why I worry, since Wynne and Trudaeu are going to retrieve all those juicy jobs from Mexico , US and China. Any day now.

[CommunityOrganizer]

To get to the actual topic which is has backing Wynne backfired on the public sector unions, the answer is certainly not.

The 2014 election was between the Liberals and the Conservatives with the NDP polling well back in 3rd place.

When Dalton McGuinty campaign in 2003 against Premier Eves and the PCs, he made 231 election promises on his website.

But the two most significant ones were 1/ I will not raise your taxes and 2/ I will ensure labour peace in Ontario.

Clearly, he did not keep promise number one inasmuch as the two biggest tax hikes in Ontario since WWII were introduced by McGuinty with the health care levy and the HST.

But he did keep promise number two and he kept it by providing then more than one million Ontarians in the greater public sector with raises of two to three times the inflation rate while the poor unwashed schmucks in the private sector who ultimately fund this profligacy were experiencing mostly recessionary times requiring eliminating jobs, freezing or cutting wages and benefits and if you were really lucky pay increases in the 1-2% inflation range.

This has resulted in today the greater public sector gobbling up over 55% of the Ontario budget in pay, perks and pensions, the doubling of the Ontario debt and the incursion of deficits which now are greater than the combined deficits of all the other province and the federal government, and economic growth and job creation near the bottom instead of the top of the provincial pack.

So no, the unions were not wrong in terms of their narrow and short term self interest to blow millions of advertising dollars demonizing the Conservatives and to facilitate thousands of public sector workers campaigning for the Liberals and to help ensure that this huge voting bloc remained loyal to the political whores who bribed them for a decade.

Had the Conservatives taken power, they would actually have taken steps to stop the gravy train and to govern for the 75-80% 0f Ontarians who still do not work for the greater public sector. Oh, The Horror!

[Ash74]

The Liberal party is the Liberal party. Will say anything to get elected and than say "oooops, sorry I guess we just were too ambitious"

I knew Dalton was lying in 2003. I guess he was the only one that didn't know that Ontario was in a financial mess. He was busy with the election and all.

Wynne jumped on Hudak for talking of eliminating 100,000 jobs.

Hudak was a terrible leader that walked into every trap the Liberals laid out for him. 38% of the people in Ontario are lemmings for voting for the Liberals and would love to have sen a poll asking how many people that voted Liberal would have if they knew Wynne was going to get a majority.

[socialist]

The Liberal party is the Liberal party. Will say anything to get elected and than say "oooops, sorry I guess we just were too ambitious"

I knew Dalton was lying in 2003. I guess he was the only one that didn't know that Ontario was in a financial mess. He was busy with the election and all.

Wynne jumped on Hudak for talking of eliminating 100,000 jobs.

Hudak was a terrible leader that walked into every trap the Liberals laid out for him. 38% of the people in Ontario are lemmings for voting for the Liberals and would love to have sen a poll asking how many people that voted Liberal would have if they knew Wynne was going to get a majority.

You deal in nothing more than what ifs. There is no such thing as what if. Your excuses make little sense.

[Ash74]

You deal in nothing more than what ifs. There is no such thing as what if. Your excuses make little sense.

Please don't take away my right to vote.

[Bob Macadoo]

Ontario public sector unions knew there was a haircut coming.....its inevitable. The choice was were you going to give "the union buster" title to the conservatives who would exploit it to Harperesque proportions or the Liberals who you have a chance of rhetoric-less negotiation (ie. Monetary haircut vs. larger maternity/cancer care top-up benefit).

They didn't, nor did anyone, see a majority. Unions ran an ABC campaign, not shilling for OLP.......seems Horvath wasn't trustworthy this time around.

[jacee]

The legacy costs are more and more retirees, supported by fewer workers. Unfortunately public sector pension plans are somewhat of a pyramid scheme. They're defined benefit, instead of defined contribution. In otherwords, the beneficiaries don't pay nearly enough into the plans as oppose to what they get out. The tax payer is left footing the bill, and the gap between the two.

Shady you'll have to back up this claim. Your claim isn't credible.

Ontario Pension Board:

The Plan is 96% funded (on a going-concern basis) at year-end 2013.

Can't link to PDF but ...

http://www.opb.ca/portal/opb.portal?_pageLabel=AboutOPB&_nfpb=true&path=/OPBPublicRepository/OPB/Public/AboutOPB/AnnualReports/en/Annual%20Reports

Edited February 28, 2015 by jacee