War Against ISIL

[Big Guy]

First of all America doesn't decide. It was a vote in parliament that allowed the RAF to join in for instance. But think about it, Israeli's bombing Arab's with American airplanes! yikes.

this situation is already past the bizarre stage. We have the Syrians and Americans fighting the same group - ISIS - but still enemies of each other. We have the USA supporting and supported by those repressive kingdoms that govern Saudi Arabia, UAE et al We have coalition bombers bombing in sovereign nation of Syria which has not declared war on anybody or has asked for help. The coalition (USA) explains that it no longer recognizes the Assad government but instead recognizes as the Syrian government those good guy rebels who cannot be found. BTW, these good guy rebels are the army that is supposed to be the boots on the ground that will wipe out the remnants of ISIS after the coalition bombs the beejebers out of them.

Is this thing complicated? Certainly! But you don't jump into some battle where you do not know how to identify your enemy, you do not know what the criteria for success would be, you do not know how long you will be in there and you still do not know who your real enemy would be?

If Syrian planes are strafing ISIS units on the ground should Canadian airplanes shoot at the Syrians? the ISIS ground troops? Both?

If Iran ground troops are chasing ISIS fighters into Northern Iraq or Syria are Canadians to fire on the Iranians? ISIS? Both? None?

The old "this is the right thing to do" just ain't gonna wash this time.

If we do not know what we are doing we should do nothing! - Until we know.

[Big Guy]

And of course the fanatics you speak of were already there. Canada et al definitely does not want to create them. That's not what you do with warplanes.

You drop a bomb. It explodes. If it is perfectly aimed then you kill only the people you targeted - if your information is correct. If the bomb is a little off target and somebody who is not targeted gets killed then we say Oops! Sorry. Collateral damage.

As has been pointed out here before, Families in this area tend to be large and extended families are very large. Oops ain't good enough for the father, mother, sister, brother, cousin etc of some collateral damage guy, girl or child who was just obliterated. None of them asked us to bomb them. Warplanes create these fanatics who are sworn to exact revenge for the deaths of family members.

And if some of these family members are already in Canada then....

[Derek 2.0]

It's not all about Israel and I really am not concerned what is in the minds of those who are prejudiced against any race, culture or nation. The reason I am posting this is exactly because Israel "hasn't even done anything". Every other nation in the area, every one of which has a tenuous relationship with the USA, has taken a stand. Israel has not. Why are they getting a pass?

Two geopolitical reasons namely:

First, as already alluded to, direct Israeli involvement, like in the First Gulf war, would disallow the various Sunni Arab countries from participating for domestic consumption. Arab involvement in defeating ISIS, politically, is key.

Second, ISIS is also fighting against Shia Muslim groups, proxies of Iran and Syria, like Hamas and Hezbollah. As the old adage goes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend …..in that resources expended by Iran in support of their allies in the fight against ISIS, can’t be used against Israel……..From an Israeli perspective, this conflict can go on into perpetuity….

[On Guard for Thee]

Syrian planes aren't strafing anybody, for starters. Nobody forced the UAE or Saudi etc. to come to the party. Syria did in fact welcome air strikes. They don't want ISIS either. Modern military aircraft can pretty much know who they are firing on. We could doddle on sitting on our hands doing nothing while these crazy bastards arm up to the tune of between 2-3 million /day from oil revenues while peoples heads get cut off and women get raped. Sometimes you have to grow a backbone and act.

[Derek 2.0]

Syrian planes aren't strafing anybody, for starters.

http://youtu.be/Xnzrzpf3sxE

Modern military aircraft can pretty much know who they are firing on.

By all means, please explain what modern systems can differentiate between a Kurd armed with an AK-47 and a member of ISIS armed with an AK-47……

We could doddle on sitting on our hands doing nothing while these crazy bastards arm up to the tune of between 2-3 million /day from oil revenues while peoples heads get cut off and women get raped. Sometimes you have to grow a backbone and act.

Funny, last night you said:

I couldn't care less if the ISIS cuts the heads off everyone in their path,

[bush_cheney2004]

Then why should Canada?

Ask your own government and examine Canada's foreign policy for such answers. It is not up to Israel or the United States to justify or explain the actions or inactions of Canada compared to other nations. Get some "Canadian content" instead.

[Big Guy]

Syrian planes aren't strafing anybody, for starters. Nobody forced the UAE or Saudi etc. to come to the party. Syria did in fact welcome air strikes. They don't want ISIS either. Modern military aircraft can pretty much know who they are firing on. We could doddle on sitting on our hands doing nothing while these crazy bastards arm up to the tune of between 2-3 million /day from oil revenues while peoples heads get cut off and women get raped. Sometimes you have to grow a backbone and act.

We are already doodling on and sitting on our hands while there are crazy bastards all, over the world killing people who do not want to die;

There are currently 29 “serious “ wars that are going on in the world to-day. There are another 20 “lesser” ones;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

There are people getting killed – obliterated, decapitated, vaporized, tortured to death or just plain shot. As to the raping part, that is usually added to the reports in an attempt to gather support for one side or the other.

Why this one and not the others? Why any of them?

We get sucked into this emotional "heads getting cut off " as if that is worse than watching you insides flow out of your body after a direct hit and sitting for minutes looking at what you ate a day ago. The rape thing is also important to get the emotions up and entice those angry Westerners into a trap that has been set.

Remember that we marched into Afghanistan to rid that country of those "scum bags and murderers" and later so all those little girls could go to school. How did we make out there?

I have no intent to convince you that I feel the way I do. I am just expressing how I feel.

I have read your recent post and your previous posts and respect and understand your point of you. Your view probably represents the majority and that is why we will probably be dragged into (what I predict) will be another unsuccessful quagmire.

What do you feel will be the indicator of success in this mission?

What do you feel will be the indicator of failure for this mission?

At what point should/will Canada no longer be part of this mission?

[On Guard for Thee]

One indicator would be not having any more youtube beheading videos posted. Another would be all the people fleeing ISIS with not much more than the clothes on their back, being able to return to their homes without worrying about being raped or killed. Granted, figuring out exactly when you have achieved that in a lasting way is not easy. But the locals will be helpful in determining that I'm sure.

[dre]

Nobody wants to be ruled by ISIL

See again this is the problem with you endorsing military action... You dont have a basic idea of what the facts on the ground are.

This article explains things pretty nicely.

The appeal of Isis's extreme religious doctrine to Sunni Arab Iraqis has been well documented, but in fact it is the economic situation of many of those Sunni Arab civilians that lies at the root of their support for the insurgents.

As Isis has overrun great swathes of Iraq in the past two months, it has frequently received complicity, if not all-out support, from many Arab Sunnis (I focus here only on Arab Sunnis; Kurdish Sunnis have met Isis with profound hostility and resistance).

While US analysts believe that Isis comprises only around 10,000 fighters, it has swept with relative ease through the north and west of the country thanks to the Sunni-dominated communities that live there, which have extended a sympathetic reception to the insurgents.

On a superficial level, the attraction of Isis to Iraq's Sunni Arab underdogs is obvious: here is a group of the same sect of Islam that promises them preferential treatment in society and better opportunities than they could ever hope for under the current Shia-dominated leadership.

After all, the plight of the nation’s Sunnis, disenfranchised under Nouri al-Maliki’s Shia-dominated government, is well known.

The religious objectives laid out by Isis are also attractive to Iraqi Sunnis. The insurgents' extreme violence is framed as religious cleansing – wiping out the Shia imams and believers from the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala.

As the New York Times has noted: "Mass execution has been meshed with the use of religious symbolism by the insurgents".

And while Isis's insistence on adherence to extreme conservative conventions may appear harsh to outsiders, the clarity and simplicity of Sharia law is always going to appeal most to downtrodden and insecure communities, like Iraq's poorer Arab Sunnis, who tend to prefer robust law and order to instability.

In addition to the ideological appeal of Isis, the group's social constitution has been a boon in winning over rural Sunnis. There is, relatively speaking, a flat structure to Isis's social and religious make-up that appeals to a poor, agragian society in a way the hierarchical, class-based Sunni Islam of Saudi Arabia never would.

Above all, however, it behoves to consider the specific economic circumstances in which many Iraqi Arab Sunnis have found themselves – roundly ignored by most analysts – in order to explain their inclination to embrace the militants.

Economic deprivation has plagued the Iraqi Sunnis, who are thought to comprise between 20 and 35 per cent of the population (accurate data is lacking), since the 2003 war.

Driven from power by Western forces after enjoying supremacy, and comprising the majority of Saddam's Ba'athist government (Saddam himself was a Sunni Arab from Tikrit), the Sunnis have been increasingly marginalised in the past ten years.

Shunned from the Shia-dominated security forces, Sunnis have little stake in the defense of the country. More than that, however, al-Maliki's refusal to incorporate the Awakening squads of Sunni fighters, who supported the deposition of Saddam and aided the West's invasion, into the mainstream security forces, has meant that most of these Sunni Arabs been faced with a limited choice: suffer unemployment, or join Isis.

While residual Sunni neighbourhoods remain in Baghdad, and the city of Mosul in the north is still a hub of metropolitan Sunnis, around half the country's Sunni Arabs are agragrian, rural-dwelling people.

Despite that, they have been hit hardest by the series of poor harvests and food shortages that Iraq has suffered in the past decade.

It is a bitter irony that Iraq, part of the fertile crescent in the Middle East that has been farmed for 8,000 years, and irrigated by not one, but two great Asian rivers, the Tigris and the Euphrates, has suffered severe agricultural decline.

Years of neglect and conflict advanced the contraction of the sector in the decades before the Iraq invasion, but agricultural productivity declined a devastating 90 per cent after the 2003 war.

According to reports, Iraqi agriculture is in crisis. The misery of rural Sunni communities that rely on agriculture for their income and subsistence, was compounded by six years of the driest winters on in Iraq from 2004 onwards.

Once a major exporter, Iraq is now reliant year-round on food imports. Many Sunnis have been working hard on the land, and yet struggling to eat, while perceiving metropolitan Shias in Baghdad and the east to be living in luxury.

The economic conditions of Iraq’s Sunni Arab population rendered them at prime risk of uprising.

Even the Iraqi Shia authorities implicitly acknowledge it. Earlier this week, officials were briefing the US press that Isis was successfully recruiting "mostly young men between the ages of 16 and 25 who are primarily poor, unemployed and lack an education".

What they meant were poor, young, underprivileged Sunnis – of whom there is an abundance in Iraq.

The economic deprivation suffered by many Sunni Iraqis is connected to, but distinct from, their marginalisation on the political stage.

Sunnis were already beginning to revolt against their Shia oppressors as far back as 2012. In December that year, tens of thousands of Sunnis took to the streets to protest their disenfranchisement.

Iraq has been riven by political and sectarian conflict for decades, but these considerations are liable to obscure related, but distinct, social and economic factors that are crucial in explaining why Isis has been able to overrun the Sunni-dominated parts of the country unresisted.

http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2014/08/why-there-sunni-arab-support-isis-iraq

That doesnt mean that all Iraqi Arab Sunnis support ISIL. But virtually none of them want continued rule by the Shia central government in Iraq, and none of them want continued rule by Assad. ISIL has been able to position themselves as an alternative, and thats why they have taken so much territory so quickly and so easily.

[On Guard for Thee]

Yes as I've already mentioned, turfing the sunni baathist's wasn't the smartest thing coming out of the '03 invasion. The government has recently been shuffled, we shall have to wait and see how that works out. In the meantime I don't think it's the best idea to have, as the article mentions, "young, poor, uneducated" people enlisting in a murderous group that has so far driven an estimated 200k much more capable and less fanatical people scurrying over the borders.

[Army Guy]

What your article fails to mention is that in Iraq Shia makes up 60 to 65 % of the population, and just by numbers alone that would mean they would have those same numbers in government. The Sunni's which make up 30 to 35 % of the population are unhappy, and yet they are represented in their government by the same presentage....go figure...

And yet the sunni's have commanded Iraq for almost a hundrd years now, during that time the made it a sport to hunt down and kill SHia Imans etc....but also not reportily but in fact the Shia was the poorest in Iraq.....

http://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/would-iraqs-sunnis-want-to-be-treated-like-saudi-arabias-shia-21205/

So now the Sunnis claim they are being mistreated by the current government , and have taken it upon themselfs to armed themselfs and kill as many as those damn shia guys as they can, trying to claim what they think is theirs.......if only they were being as treated as badly as they claim they might have a piont....instead they have taken up arms and made terrorists out of them selfs.....

What gives them the right, to take what they want, Am i missing something in inter national law, the conventions..... rather than try to change it from within, via normal means .....becuase that is what they have done.....they decided we don't like you, be over to kill you and take your stuff....and unless you can tell me i'm wrong.....and there is no laws or conventions that prevent this type of action or bahavior.....So now it comes done to whom will take action and punish this hooligans.....and everyone pauses.....turns their heads to the man at the back, with the red white and blue drapped over his shoulder.....and the Americans are the bad guys all over again.....which is great because that fits with our national moto.....and past time.....To blame them for the worlds problems, if we did'nt have the americans to talk about i don't think we would even talk.....Ok maybe theres the french....

If there is no reaction by the inter national community, then these guys and the others across the globe will mobilize their armies and take what they want....re drawing the maps across the globe....in fact i'm thinking about doing it right now, claiming southern New Brunswick for just me and my dog , my quad, and my 30-30 winchester...."its bear season" and the other red necks have had way to much to drink.....

Edited September 29, 2014 by Army Guy

[dre]

So now it comes done to whom will take action and punish this hooligans.

No now it comes down to whether or not we will be stupid enough to make the exact same mistakes again. Will we be stupid enough to think that we can use military force to stop the desire of 20+ million Sunnis in Iraq and Syria to be free of rule by Iranian backed Shia. Or will we realize that even if we were to kill every single ISIL member today, it wouldnt make a difference, and the desire of Sunnis to rule themselves will in fact be stronger.

[Army Guy]

We are already doodling on and sitting on our hands while there are crazy bastards all, over the world killing people who do not want to die;

There are currently 29 “serious “ wars that are going on in the world to-day. There are another 20 “lesser” ones;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

There are people getting killed – obliterated, decapitated, vaporized, tortured to death or just plain shot. As to the raping part, that is usually added to the reports in an attempt to gather support for one side or the other.

Why this one and not the others? Why any of them?

We get sucked into this emotional "heads getting cut off " as if that is worse than watching you insides flow out of your body after a direct hit and sitting for minutes looking at what you ate a day ago. The rape thing is also important to get the emotions up and entice those angry Westerners into a trap that has been set.

Remember that we marched into Afghanistan to rid that country of those "scum bags and murderers" and later so all those little girls could go to school. How did we make out there?

I have no intent to convince you that I feel the way I do. I am just expressing how I feel.

I have read your recent post and your previous posts and respect and understand your point of you. Your view probably represents the majority and that is why we will probably be dragged into (what I predict) will be another unsuccessful quagmire.

What do you feel will be the indicator of success in this mission?

What do you feel will be the indicator of failure for this mission?

At what point should/will Canada no longer be part of this mission?

Well if everyone did their part in the world , i would think we could cut those nasty little wars in half, but in todays world there is only a couple of fire houses willing to put those fires out.....US britain and france some of the times.....Canada, well Canada contributes to what it can, only because we don't have much.....

You asked a good question WHY ? well sir i have asked this many times, Here in Canada we have freedoms that most nations only dream about, for the most part we can provide for our families, with food, shelter, and clothing.....in fact we provide so much that we end up throwing a good portion away.....to the trash, or good will, or local food bank.....not many Canadians that are as poor as these people from 3 rd world nations, that don't know what the true meaning of the word freedom means or feels like.....So while we sit down to our 3 in steak, mountains of fries with gravy, to watch the hockey game we should be asking why not ? I mean we have the men and women in this country already that would gladly do the job, all it takes is for the tax payer to cough up maybe 25 extra dollars a year to pay for the deployment.....maybe a few extra dollars to give us some equipment....

And poof we are sending little girls to school, building dams and bridges, rebuilding a nation.....

You question Afghanistans involvement, and yet where are they are they hiding in the local streets, NOPE, on the fringes of Aghanistan, NOPE, they hide in pakistan, and cross over when they want to create a shit storm.....you make lite of little girls going to school, well they are and that is the next generation of Afghanistan citiizen that will help mold their future....I had the great honor with sharing my lunch with one of those little grils, who sacrificed both her hands for her education, plus her father, and was forced to watch as they raped her mother........and after going though all that she still in school, trying to honor her fathers sacrifice.......she came over to me to say thank you. As we where helping rebuild her school.....for me that was worth every second i had spent in the 50 plus degree heat, carrying around close to 100 lbs of fighting and dieing equipment.....that whole 10 min conversation we had.....for me meant i had decided to something that was right, to bring some change into her world.....I know that most tax payers did'nt have the same reaction to the government spending their 50 bucks a year.....but for me i was a deciding factor to go back two more times.

pI spent well over 2 years of my life in Afghan , i was their in the early years, and near the end , i've seen the changes from war torn cities that were leveled by 30 years of war, to new infra strucute, power, intra net cafes, floushing busineess ...it was not perfect , but it is a great start.....Today we see another president elected, there and the people of Afghanistan are holding their breaths to see which way he will lead them ......this is just the start of the journey, how can we for certain be so critical....and yet we were there almost 10 years, on average each tax payer was billed out no more than 25-50 dollars a year....to give millions a chance to have a taste of freedom we have today....i'm thinking we got a bargin....

[Big Guy]

Well if everyone did their part in the world ,

....i'm thinking we got a bargin....

Thank you for the eloquent and heartfelt response. It is obvious we will never agree on this issue.

In this day and age, when the West sends troops into battle, the cost is not only a financial one. Yes, the soldiers may be prepared to die for their country. That is their individual choice. They signed on to follow the orders of their government.

The problem begins when we mess with another country to “protect them” from themselves. Bin Laden stated that Sept 11 was the repayment for all the Al Queda soldiers that had been killed by the West. Then in retaliation, the USA went into Afghanistan, Iraq and the rest is unfortunate history.

Now we are thinking of getting involved in another civil war in the Middle East. The fanatics have already stated that since Canada has joined this coalition then Canada is now involved in this war and can expect a response. You say these guys are crazy fanatics – you may be right. And some of their relatives are also living in Canada. What if these relatives decide to join the jihad and do a job on the subways in Toronto or the CN tower or go after the drinking water in Ottawa. Will that have been worth getting involved in their local troubles?

The other argument that I have heard is either we fight them there or we will have to fight them here. I do not believe that. I think it is a bunch of propaganda to convince us to spend money and blood on these useless expeditions.

Remember Vietnam – how the loss of Vietnam would initiate the domino effect and all of the world would become communist. Didn't happen.

There are innocent people being killed all over the world for all kinds of reasons. The USA may feel that it is the self appointed sheriff of the globe and prepared to fly the flag and follow it into any battle but I do not think Canada has to or should.

[GostHacked]

Well if everyone did their part in the world , i would think we could cut those nasty little wars in half, but in todays world there is only a couple of fire houses willing to put those fires out.....US britain and france some of the times.....Canada, well Canada contributes to what it can, only because we don't have much.....

France? Both France and Italy bowed out for Libya, right after they made a stink about it. France is in Mali, but they are not there for good, more of keeping the empirical aspect in play.

Both the US and UK said the ISIS problem in Iraq was not their issue/problem. Let the Iraqi's figure it out. That was the rhetoric back in the early spring. But now, they are mostly all in. What's changed? And why did it change?

You asked a good question WHY ? well sir i have asked this many times, Here in Canada we have freedoms that most nations only dream about, for the most part we can provide for our families, with food, shelter, and clothing.....in fact we provide so much that we end up throwing a good portion away.....to the trash, or good will, or local food bank.....not many Canadians that are as poor as these people from 3 rd world nations, that don't know what the true meaning of the word freedom means or feels like.....So while we sit down to our 3 in steak, mountains of fries with gravy, to watch the hockey game we should be asking why not ? I mean we have the men and women in this country already that would gladly do the job, all it takes is for the tax payer to cough up maybe 25 extra dollars a year to pay for the deployment.....maybe a few extra dollars to give us some equipment....

They don't hate us for this. The reasons they hate us (or our government more specifically) is because we been poking the area with sticks for a long time. What this is, is blowback for all that poking.

You question Afghanistans involvement, and yet where are they are they hiding in the local streets, NOPE, on the fringes of Aghanistan, NOPE, they hide in pakistan, and cross over when they want to create a shit storm.....you make lite of little girls going to school, well they are and that is the next generation of Afghanistan citiizen that will help mold their future....I had the great honor with sharing my lunch with one of those little grils, who sacrificed both her hands for her education, plus her father, and was forced to watch as they raped her mother........and after going though all that she still in school, trying to honor her fathers sacrifice.......she came over to me to say thank you. As we where helping rebuild her school.....for me that was worth every second i had spent in the 50 plus degree heat, carrying around close to 100 lbs of fighting and dieing equipment.....that whole 10 min conversation we had.....for me meant i had decided to something that was right, to bring some change into her world.....I know that most tax payers did'nt have the same reaction to the government spending their 50 bucks a year.....but for me i was a deciding factor to go back two more times.

pI spent well over 2 years of my life in Afghan , i was their in the early years, and near the end , i've seen the changes from war torn cities that were leveled by 30 years of war, to new infra strucute, power, intra net cafes, floushing busineess ...it was not perfect , but it is a great start.....Today we see another president elected, there and the people of Afghanistan are holding their breaths to see which way he will lead them ......this is just the start of the journey, how can we for certain be so critical....and yet we were there almost 10 years, on average each tax payer was billed out no more than 25-50 dollars a year....to give millions a chance to have a taste of freedom we have today....i'm thinking we got a bargin....

Overall you are a tool of the government. That is how one of my long time friends had put it after he did two tours in Kosovo and two tours in Afghanistan. He was not happy about being used for a failing foreign policy. At least that is what I picked up from him when we spoke last. You may have good intentions, but the people calling the shots for you, do not have the same good intentions. This is a perpetual non-ending war, which you are being used to carry out and to justify the rhetoric.

And I know it's kind of irrelevant, but your grammar and spelling are horrible.

[dre]

Well if everyone did their part in the world , i would think we could cut those nasty little wars in half, but in todays world there is only a couple of fire houses willing to put those fires out.....US britain and france some of the times.....Canada, well Canada contributes to what it can, only because we don't have much.....

The problem is those "fire houses" are not acting on humanitarian grounds. If this was really about how many people we could help Iraq would not have even been on the list, and Afghanistan would not have made the top 30.

Plus... this is a really stupid way to help people. The projects in Iraq and Afghanistan cost about 4 trillion dollars. If any of this was really about humanitarianism then you could do a million times as much good for people by spending that 4 trillion dollars in other ways.

You asked a good question WHY ? well sir i have asked this many times, Here in Canada we have freedoms that most nations only dream about, for the most part we can provide for our families, with food, shelter, and clothing.....in fact we provide so much that we end up throwing a good portion away.

That doesnt answer the question why. If you care about people starving and kids not being able to go to school, then the last thing youre going to do is Invade Iraq and Afghanistan. The bang for your buck in these kind of adventures is extremely low. We could have taken the 4 trillion dollars that were wasted in these countries achieving minimal gains and put hundreds of millions of kids in school and fed hundreds of millions more.

As for Afghanistan in general its way to early to say that we helped them at all. Yes... there are cases where life is better there for people, but the country is still dependant on hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign aid, and western troops. The real test will be what happens once we leave... and my guess is things will just fall apart again.

[Army Guy]

Thank you for the eloquent and heartfelt response. It is obvious we will never agree on this issue.

In this day and age, when the West sends troops into battle, the cost is not only a financial one. Yes, the soldiers may be prepared to die for their country. That is their individual choice. They signed on to follow the orders of their government.

I think it is more than that, Soldiers join the military for many reasons, and while i can't speak for them. I know one of the reasons i'd joined was to help in some way to make a difference, Sure we are aware of the scaraifice that might have to be made, and yes we do follow orders, but in reality we are the ones on the ground, we are making the small decissions that may or may not effect the lives of others....again we are under the direct control of our government but it is the soldiers that carry out those orders, putting their own personal spin on them.....You can't make a difference if your not willing to get in the game.....

The problem begins when we mess with another country to “protect them” from themselves. Bin Laden stated that Sept 11 was the repayment for all the Al Queda soldiers that had been killed by the West. Then in retaliation, the USA went into Afghanistan, Iraq and the rest is unfortunate history.

For me it is hard to watch on TV , thousands of lives being wasted because some group of thugs want to play by different rules.....rules that are set in place for our own protection, to try and hold the world together without exploding.....

Bin Ladin and his merry band of thugs were terrorists period....not soldiers but terrorists bent killing anyone that did not fall into their way of thinking.....they had no connection with the Afghanis population, other than thats where they were staying....they brought instabilty to the area, killed thousands of Afghanis, and others...and were exporting thier terror network across the globe....

Going after Bin Ladin or for that matter any terroist organization does have it's risk, 9/11 was one of those risks....there is a saying all evil needs to exist is for good men to do nothing....And while many of the people here have already crossed out military action, to combat these guys nobody has given another solution....So my question is When do we even consider taking any action...

The other argument that I have heard is either we fight them there or we will have to fight them here. I do not believe that. I think it is a bunch of propaganda to convince us to spend money and blood on these useless expeditions.

If the west did not interfer in lets say ISIS do you think that they are going to stop with just creating a new home land for Sunni's , they have already said they will not stop, even produced a map on what there new territory will look at , it includes places like spain, etc....so we alreay know of their intentions....do we have to wait until they are at our shores......do you think the west will be free from any of their direct actions...

There are innocent people being killed all over the world for all kinds of reasons. The USA may feel that it is the self appointed sheriff of the globe and prepared to fly the flag and follow it into any battle but I do not think Canada has to or should.

There are, but the current US military or for that matter any coalition force is not large enough to make any difference in all the current worlds hotspots, it is a pick and choose hope for the best situation. And the US does not feel that way, they are the biggest kid in the room, and nobody else wants the job, it's kind of forced on them.....

http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vol14/no1/page19-eng.asp

Edited September 30, 2014 by Army Guy

[Army Guy]

France? Both France and Italy bowed out for Libya, right after they made a stink about it. France is in Mali, but they are not there for good, more of keeping the empirical aspect in play.

Both the US and UK said the ISIS problem in Iraq was not their issue/problem. Let the Iraqi's figure it out. That was the rhetoric back in the early spring. But now, they are mostly all in. What's changed? And why did it change?

France for the most part has been in the back gorund for most of these coalition issues. infact they were striking ISIS before anyone brought forces to bare.

Things have changed dramatically on the ground since then, the problem has grown much larger, ISIS is now holding ground, refugees are running in all directions, ISIS is killing in mass. the Stability in the whole region is threatened....Why did it change well nobody did anything to stop it, and it is now grown to it's current size.....a size that current Iraqi forces can not deal with.....

They don't hate us for this. The reasons they hate us (or our government more specifically) is because we been poking the area with sticks for a long time. What this is, is blowback for all that poking.

It is one of the many reasons they hate us, we have so much our standard of living is so good, and they live in squaler....so yes it is one of the many reasons...

Overall you are a tool of the government. That is how one of my long time friends had put it after he did two tours in Kosovo and two tours in Afghanistan. He was not happy about being used for a failing foreign policy. At least that is what I picked up from him when we spoke last. You may have good intentions, but the people calling the shots for you, do not have the same good intentions. This is a perpetual non-ending war, which you are being used to carry out and to justify the rhetoric.

And I know it's kind of irrelevant, but your grammar and spelling are horrible.

I don't question that, everyone plays a role some how directly or indirectly, so ya most of us are tools for the government, it is what you do in that service that counts, we are not robots with pre programed brains that have no room for free thinking....Yes the government sets a broad objective for all of to operate under....and yet soldiers also find the time to build schools, fire stations, even gather their own funds to buy fire trucks and abulances.....this is what made Canadian soldiers popular in our AO, not the governments direction....but rather on how we got the job done....

I'm sorry to hear that is how your friend looks upon his service, as a tool for a failing policy.....when in fact he did alot more than that...he made a difference , although it may be small he still made a difference....As for our government using us for a different agenda....or bad intentions, in my mind i don't think so....i can't think of any role that Canada has played where it had bad intentions....

[Rue]

Army you are trying to dialogue with people who are already in the know. They have it all figured out.

Especially Dre the self proclaimed Jew and accuser of others of being fake Jews. He read an article.

He knows.

He's an expert on Afghanistan Iraq, Israel, he has it all figured out and how stupid the entire world but himself is.

Between you and I it zipped over his self proclaimed genius a long time ago. He still can't comprehend that ISIL, ISIS, al Quaeda/al Nusra

are al just Sunni Muslim extremists whose names and leaders come and go with the wind.

He has it all figured out. They would not exist if the US and Jews just let the Middle East,

Then you see he would be loved. He would no longer have to come on this forum posing as a Good Jew talking down Bad Jews about the Middle East.

Suddenly all those bad Jews, the Americans would go poof, and the Muslim Sunni extremists will embrace him.

What this is about Army is sanctimonious self righteous bilge spewed by someone who would panic if ISIL moved anywhere near him,

Dre would be the first strung up and peeled alive by ISIL precisely because of his attempt to apologize for them and trot out the big bad evil west formula and the-they ren't really bad people you know, they only act that way because the West is stupid.

I am not sure what is more revolting, self hating apologists or terrorists.

To me they are both as low as it gets, Both cowardly, both afraid of their own shadow, both only willing to act tough and smug when you can't see their face.

Pathetic vermin is what I call them.

As far as I am concerned there is no cure, just a never ending mission of containing them. They have always existed, will always exist, and the best we can do is contain the vermin and let them turn on and eat each other.

[Big Guy]

Army you are trying to dialogue with people who are already in the know.

...

Pathetic vermin is what I call them.

Too bad. For a few postings we were having an interesting and honest sharing of very different opinions - differing but still respecting the view and participation of those who disagreed.

Then we get - " sanctimonious self righteous bilge" and "self hating apologists or terrorists" and "Pathetic vermin".

If you can't respect the participants in a discussion, why bother commenting?

I hope this guy is not allowed to derail this thread into another finger pointing series of personal attacks.

[Army Guy]

The problem is those "fire houses" are not acting on humanitarian grounds. If this was really about how many people we could help Iraq would not have even been on the list, and Afghanistan would not have made the top 30.

Plus... this is a really stupid way to help people. The projects in Iraq and Afghanistan cost about 4 trillion dollars. If any of this was really about humanitarianism then you could do a million times as much good for people by spending that 4 trillion dollars in other ways.

I disagree , humanitarian needs was on the list, along with some others.....Again Iraq was about UN sanctions being ignored, and all the violations that went with that....once again, someone has to take actions, or there will be no consquences to violating the rules....if that is the case why have them....

Afghanistan and her coalition decided to take on the US directly....and it cost them big time....

Is it, what other ways could the US help those in both of the above countries.....

That doesnt answer the question why. If you care about people starving and kids not being able to go to school, then the last thing youre going to do is Invade Iraq and Afghanistan. The bang for your buck in these kind of adventures is extremely low. We could have taken the 4 trillion dollars that were wasted in these countries achieving minimal gains and put hundreds of millions of kids in school and fed hundreds of millions more.

As for Afghanistan in general its way to early to say that we helped them at all. Yes... there are cases where life is better there for people, but the country is still dependant on hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign aid, and western troops. The real test will be what happens once we leave... and my guess is things will just fall apart again.

Nor have you answered the question as to why not, if we as a nation have the resources and talent to help why not, i mean there was plenty of men and women willing to do so, all you had to do is pay some taxes.....which you did anyways....and for that minimal investment we help those in need .....yes we could have done it cheaper, but nobody knows how, or would it have proven sucessful......

Afghanistan was almost destroyed in over 30 years of conflict....yes it is still dependent on foreign funding does that make it any less of an improvement....we are leaving in mass numbers, a new president is in charge , and your right it will be some time before we see massive impovement....generations in time will be needed.....and i hope your wrong....but i have placed my faith in the Afghanistan people

[Army Guy]

Rue, i think they get it just fine, everyone has an opinion, right or wrong it's always going to be out there.....i try to persuade them to my side but i'm not very good at articulating all my ideas so i keep at it. that and the fact my grammar and spelling is horriable....which i agree one or the reasons i post here is to improve all of that....I just hope that someone can see the same things i have through my lenses to provide another prespective....

[Big Guy]

.....i try to persuade them to my side

...

That is interesting. Do you really feel that this is a venue to try to turn someone over to your side?

I have not seen it happen on this or any other board. I do not see the process as an argument or exchange of angry accusations. I would like to think that when one states an opinion that you are requesting to be challenged on the data that you are using to formulate that opinion. Once you engage some poster(s) who have different opinions based on different set of data then all parties are better for the discourse.

I think the successful end result of any serious discussion here is the abandonment of any myopic prejudiced view and an understanding of those who disagree with you. You still maintain your view but have now a better appreciation of the arguments of those who oppose you.

Problems start when the name calling, finger pointing and disrespect take over the discussion. Then not only are the participants no better for the effort but the issue becomes lost in personality clashes.

[Rue]

Let me make it clear Big Guy, I find your response to me insincere given your selectivity as to which personal attacks you condemn. So do me a favour knock off the sanctimonious responses to me. wrong audience to engage with.

I will make clear in the future that its the words I find to be putrid.

Like this for example.

To explain away terrorism as an act of victimhood is in my opinion apologizing for terrorism and is an insult to anyone coming from the same environment who has chosen peace and civility and not terrorism.

You or anyone else want to continue to try explain away terrorism to each other knock yourselves out. I find such words sanctimonious bilge.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Rue

[dre]

Problems start when the name calling, finger pointing and disrespect take over the discussion. Then not only are the participants no better for the effort but the issue becomes lost in personality clashes.

At least Rues bleating and wretching and moaning is good for a laugh