War Against ISIL

[Bonam]

The Liberals can’t have it both ways and eventually Trudeau will piss off some of his supporters.

Sure they can. They could just "be sick" that day and not attend the vote. Been done plenty of times.

[Argus]

Harper's grief comes from the fact he can't seem to make a decision.

Well, DND has a problem. It doesn't have the ammunition to take part in a war, even in a small way. The Harper government has slashed their funding so much that they would use up their tiny yearly ammo budget in a week.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/02/national-defence-slashed-its-2014-ammunition-budget-and-now-its-facing-a-potential-combat-mission/

[bush_cheney2004]

Lack of ordnance is not unique to the Harper government. Chretien's government ran out of bombs and spares during the Kosovo War too.

[Derek 2.0]

Sure they can. They could just "be sick" that day and not attend the vote. Been done plenty of times.

The entire Liberal contingent in the House? I doubt that, and such a tactic would then become the story.

[Rue]

Yes Argus.the budget is strapped. The foreign policy is limited by the defence spending policies.

Harper wants his cake and eat it too. He doesn't want to raise taxes and he has decided to spend money that could have gone to our armed forces on other projects that he thinks will be more likely to obtain him votes,,

All our governments have done this since the end of WW2.

Right now sending aging F-18's to the air war is simply an expensive pr display. Air attacks by themselves are inefficient. to get at terrorists . There is no way other than going in on the ground to effectively cripple any terrorist group. Short of that, the rest is press theatrics and perhaps an opportunity to test some new air hardware or missiles.

The best air bombing does is cause immediate disruption where it hits. ISIL is not a military outfit. It has no real chain of command. It is a snake with many heads. It has no one queen bee or alpha male. Each of its cells has its own leader capable of operating on their own when another cell leader is taken out.

Now there is no doubt air bombings will cause problems. But the terrorists will just regroup and mutate into other forms.

I understand it is crucial to do something and air attack is better than silence. However the reality is Muslim terrorist extremism is a cancer that won't stop if you cut out one tumour..

In fact the Muslim extremists have existed since the creation of their religion and have operated as they have for many centuries. Their latest forms are a continuation of previous forms. Their enemy today is the same enemy it was a thousand years ago-anyone who does not follow the religious beliefs of its self designated Muslims. Its about people who believe their brand of Islam is not to be questioned.

Its going to exist inefinitely until the Muslim world decides to evolve an grosw past fundamentalist extremism and denounces it.

This is slowly happening. With the invention of internet and now cell phone, the Western values Muslim extremists so detest are spreading into the psyches and hearts of what were once isolated Muslims. That penetration of Western values is causing a ripple effect and blow back by terrorists feeling their control eroding.

The vast majority of the Muslim world is still illiterate and depends on its Mullahs to tell it how to think. However even the illiterate are being penetrated by cell phones.

The downfall of the Muslim extremist world is being caused by cell phones.

It will be MacDonalds, Coca Cola, Nike, NBA basketball,NFL football, Beyoncé, that eventually defeats Muslim extremists not war.

The West has to stop trying to win the hearts and minds of terrorists. They do not represent Muslims. They could care less about Muslims. In fact they hate Muslims as much as they hate the West.

The West should be spending its time concentrating on forming alliance with progressive Muslims.

The problem at this point is finding any. They exist but will not surface to too great extent fearing back-lash.

You won't find someone admitting to being Muslim coming on this forum and denouncing ISIS, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quaeda.

Then for that matter you won't find anyone admitting to being a Muslim on this forum when they apologize for the above either.

That's why I find it so interesting to see certain individuals calling those denouncing others as fake Jews when they ay be hiding their own Muslim identities.

Until progressive Muslims come out in the open and denounce Muslims engaging in terror in the name of Islam and take back their religion this war of attrition will continue.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Rue

[Derek 2.0]

Lack of ordnance is not unique to the Harper government. Chretien's government ran out of bombs and spares during the Kosovo War too.

Indeed, sensationalism aside, the article doesn’t indicate what the reductions in the munitions budget will touch…….it does mention a reduction in artillery shells (like Excalibur), this combined with previous such sky is falling stories regaling cuts to predominantly small arms munitions would align with the Canadian Forces no longer fighting a war in Afghanistan………..Canada has bunkers full of Cold War era mk82s that are just a Paveway/JDAM kit away from being a modern smart bomb……Though I don’t know the levels of our current stores of such kits, much was bought and replaced during/after Libya, we would, if required make additional purchases, much like the British just did (before their vote Parliament) with cruise missiles…

[eyeball]

C'mon you guys, why don't put your money where your mouths are and start selling war-bonds. I can't believe after all these years of listening to the same people who usually piss and moan the loudest about the lack of public funds for wars are also just as gung-ho for cutting the public's revenue.

So again I say, put up or shut up.

[Derek 2.0]

C'mon you guys, why don't put your money where your mouths are and start selling war-bonds. I can't believe after all these years of listening to the same people who usually piss and moan the loudest about the lack of public funds for wars are also just as gung-ho for cutting the public's revenue.

So again I say, put up or shut up.

War bonds are passé……….today’s meme is already held defense stocks, and they certainly wouldn’t be sold now.

[Rue]

Big Guy Dre your responses remind me people who wear white face and try to be Mimes should not swet so profusely..

Someone's true colours are showing.

Lol.

Someone's brownies are overcooked.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Rue

[Rue]

Quite true Derek but no I will not invest in the F35. Talk to me though about helicopters. I prefer them to large fighter craft in this kind of battle.I like the silent ones with the extra speed now and protection against sucking up sand.

Also I like laser technology.

I am going to invest in vasoline. It appears very popular with trendy leftists.

[Derek 2.0]

Quite true Derek but no I will not invest in the F35. Talk to me though about helicopters. I prefer them to large fighter craft in this kind of battle.I like the silent ones with the extra speed now and protection against sucking up sand.

Sure you would........but then you probably haven't read the after action reports of Mogadishu…..or Karbala…or Fallujah 1 & 2……and why both the US Army and Marines rewrote the SOP on using helicopters in built-up, urban areas against a force with heavy weapons…….Coalition helicopters will have a limited role, at best, in operations in Iraq.

[bush_cheney2004]

Indeed, sensationalism aside, the article doesn’t indicate what the reductions in the munitions budget will touch…….it does mention a reduction in artillery shells (like Excalibur),

Interesting observation...in theory...Excaliburs at $75,000 a pop would require fewer rounds because of accuracy...and fewer can be purchased because of the cost. I know it's unpopular, but this is why cluster munitions have their place.

[Derek 2.0]

Interesting observation...in theory...Excaliburs at $75,000 a pop would require fewer rounds because of accuracy...and fewer can be purchased because of the cost. I know it's unpopular, but this is why cluster munitions have their place.

Certainly, but outside of a handful of operators in black pajamas from CSOR/JTF-2, any Canadian contribution would be limited to CF-188s/CP-140s/CC-150s/CC-177s/CC-130Js………..reductions in purchases of 155mm/120mm/25mm/.50BMG/7.62x51/5.56x45 can be expected when there is no requirement for predeployment training and combat operations of the Canadian army.

[eyeball]

War bonds are passé……….today’s meme is already held defense stocks, and they certainly wouldn’t be sold now.

Divvies are pretty good are they?

[Derek 2.0]

Divvies are pretty good are they?

For sure, have been post 9/11…….especially for those that went heavy on buying opportunities found in the reduction of the industry in the 90s.

[On Guard for Thee]

Well, DND has a problem. It doesn't have the ammunition to take part in a war, even in a small way. The Harper government has slashed their funding so much that they would use up their tiny yearly ammo budget in a week.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/02/national-defence-slashed-its-2014-ammunition-budget-and-now-its-facing-a-potential-combat-mission/

He does have a problem. He's trapsing around trying to look like a bigshot, ignoring the elected people on the other side of the house, and somehow not getting how bad it looks when you are playing these types of games with the potential involvement of the Canadian Military in foreign combat. The only "upside" seems to be it will come back to bite him.

[Derek 2.0]

He does have a problem. He's trapsing around trying to look like a bigshot, ignoring the elected people on the other side of the house, and somehow not getting how bad it looks when you are playing these types of games with the potential involvement of the Canadian Military in foreign combat. The only "upside" seems to be it will come back to bite him.

Really?

The federal government will announce on Friday the combat role Canada will play in the fight against ISIS, a day before the current 30-day mission ends, CBC News has learned......

......Harper has said any combat mission, including airstrikes, would be put to a debate and vote in Parliament.

The only mystery, is how the Trudeau Liberals will vote………It’s clear the vote will pass with the Governments majority, it’s clear the NDP will oppose such a mission, what isn’t clear, and will have effect on their political aspirations, is how the Trudeau Liberals will vote……..Any predictions? Will the Liberals support the Government in its fight against genocide and terror or will they follow suite with the NDP so as to not risk political capital within Quebec.

[On Guard for Thee]

Really?

The only mystery, is how the Trudeau Liberals will vote………It’s clear the vote will pass with the Governments majority, it’s clear the NDP will oppose such a mission, what isn’t clear, and will have effect on their political aspirations, is how the Trudeau Liberals will vote……..Any predictions? Will the Liberals support the Government in its fight against genocide and terror or will they follow suite with the NDP so as to not risk political capital within Quebec.

Maybe the Liberals will decide how to vote after Harper finally has this debate he has long ago promised but so far dithered on.

[Derek 2.0]

Maybe the Liberals will decide how to vote after Harper finally has this debate he has long ago promised but so far dithered on.

What? The Liberals don't favour bombing ISIS, and would allow another genocide like they did in Rwanda? Or the Liberals favour a war in Iraq? Trudeau Liberals won't be able to have it both ways.........

[On Guard for Thee]

What? The Liberals don't favour bombing ISIS, and would allow another genocide like they did in Rwanda? Or the Liberals favour a war in Iraq? Trudeau Liberals won't be able to have it both ways.........

Let's see what the debate holds. Hard to make a decision when you can't get a straight answer on anything.

[Derek 2.0]

Let's see what the debate holds. Hard to make a decision when you can't get a straight answer on anything.

Under what circumstances would the Liberals support/oppose airstrikes against ISIS? The Liberals, with this vote, will grant a political stick to be bashed with by either the NDP or the Tories…..Trudeau will alienate some of his supporters with whatever paths he chooses, the Liberals decision will based on the amount of support they will lose from either antiwar leftists in (namely Quebec) or Foreign interventionists from the more moderate, centrist wing found within the ROC…….

So, do the Liberals support genocide & terror or fighting a war in Iraq?

[On Guard for Thee]

Under what circumstances would the Liberals support/oppose airstrikes against ISIS? The Liberals, with this vote, will grant a political stick to be bashed with by either the NDP or the Tories…..Trudeau will alienate some of his supporters with whatever paths he chooses, the Liberals decision will based on the amount of support they will lose from either antiwar leftists in (namely Quebec) or Foreign interventionists from the more moderate, centrist wing found within the ROC…….

So, do the Liberals support genocide & terror or fighting a war in Iraq?

I don't know why you are asking me what the Liberals will do, especially with such a poorly framed question. Do you support genocide?

Do you think anyone but ISIS does in this case. I say again, let's see, finally, what Harper has up his sleeve, if he will finally answer questions for a change in a debate, so people can make an informed decision.

[Argus]

I don't know why you are asking me what the Liberals will do, especially with such a poorly framed question. Do you support genocide?

There are no "Liberals" involved here. The only question will be what Justin Trudeau decides. Nobody else gets a vote. They will vote however he tells them to vote, just as the Tories will vote the way Harper tells them to and the NDP will vote as Mulcair wishes.

We have a parliament of three people. The rest are nobodies.

[Derek 2.0]

I don't know why you are asking me what the Liberals will do, especially with such a poorly framed question. Do you support genocide?

Do you think anyone but ISIS does in this case. I say again, let's see, finally, what Harper has up his sleeve, if he will finally answer questions for a change in a debate, so people can make an informed decision.

I've asked you since you've responded...... What further information do the Liberals require to make an "informed decision"?

[Derek 2.0]

We have a parliament of three people. The rest are nobodies.

Which way do you feel the Trudeau-bots will vote?