War Against ISIL

[WestCoastRunner]

I recall a time when Canada stood for 'Peacekeeping'. Studies have shown that when peacekeeping countries are deployed, there is a 50% greater chance of attaining credible peace. Canada once had an international reputation of fighting to preserve peace. Whatever happened to those ideals that many of us Canadians stood for. What happened to us?

[On Guard for Thee]

I recall a time when Canada stood for 'Peacekeeping'. Studies have shown that when peacekeeping countries are deployed, there is a 50% greater chance of attaining credible peace. Canada once had an international reputation of fighting to preserve peace. Whatever happened to those ideals that many of us Canadians stood for. What happened to us?

37% of us elected a wannabe warrior who is bound and bent to get into a war in Iraq? Maybe his plan is to break some of those F 18's over there so he can complete his plan to bankrupt us buying F 35"s as replacements.

[WestCoastRunner]

37% of us elected a wannabe warrior who is bound and bent to get into a war in Iraq? Maybe his plan is to break some of those F 18's over there so he can complete his plan to bankrupt us buying F 35"s as replacements.

[WestCoastRunner]

That leaves 63% disillusioned with politics. All the more reason to vote to keep us as a Peacekeeping nation.

[On Guard for Thee]

Couldn't agree more. I have in my travels run into various peacekeeping Canadian military people. Well recieved and highly respected anywhere I've been. And I'm not a big flag waver I assure you, but Canada got that reputation quite legitimately IMO.

[marcus]

It's not working:

Syrian Kurds say air strikes against Isis are not working

US-led air strikes in northern Syria have failed to interrupt the advance of Islamic State (Isis) fighters closing in on a key city on the Turkish border, raising questions about the western strategy for defeating the jihadi movement.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/05/air-strikes-isis-not-working-syrian-kurds

[Big Guy]

Turkey’s PKK Kurdish rebel group on Monday called on fellow Kurds to cross into Syria and combat Islamic State militants besieging a town near the border, the pro-Kurdish agency Firat reported. The PKK has been in a rebel war against Turkey for a few years.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/09/22/Turkey-s-PKK-calls-on-fellow-Kurds-to-fight-ISIS-militants-.html

This could be good news for Canada, which has just joined the war against ISIS – except that Canada lists this group as terrorists:

http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-scrt/cntr-trrrsm/lstd-ntts/crrnt-lstd-ntts-eng.aspx

So if we spot these guys on the ground fighting ISIS are we supposed to bomb them or give them air support?

This is a fight AGAINST terrorism – is it not?

[Big Guy]

It's not working:

Syrian Kurds say air strikes against Isis are not working

US-led air strikes in northern Syria have failed to interrupt the advance of Islamic State (Isis) fighters closing in on a key city on the Turkish border, raising questions about the western strategy for defeating the jihadi movement.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/05/air-strikes-isis-not-working-syrian-kurds

I think it is far too early to tell what effect the new war is having. Once the full force of the bombardments takes effect perhaps a weakened ISIS will entice some of the stakeholders in the area to send ground troops. Unfortunately, as predicted, ISIS has captured and is now staring to concentrate into urban centres. Any indiscriminate bombing (and there will be indiscriminate bombing from members of the "coalition" ) will create human innocents collateral damage and the consequences of those mistakes.

All nations march enthusiastically into battle and many retreat or back out because of poorly defined objectives.

Maybe soon, we can declare victory and go home and let the locals fight out their civil war.

[Solidarity]

Let's compare how this intervention has gone so far, with the most recent prior case.

"As of Friday, the U.S. and its allies had conducted 250 airstrikes on Islamic State targets in Iraq and 80 in Syria". The estimates of dead ISIS from the air strikes has not even reached triple digits. A single Hezbollah ambush inflicted more manpower losses than the totality of the 'coalition' airstrikes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Otaiba_ambush).

http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-led-airstrikes-disrupt-islamic-state-but-extremists-hold-territory-1412555718

libya - over 3,000 targets hit in 14,202 strike sorties

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/may/22/nato-libya-data-journalism-operations-country

In Libya there was also a fairly united, relatively strong land army to back up these air strikes, the 'moderate rebels' if you will. Of course those 'moderates' have now transformed libya into a failed state whose government has to take refuge in a car ferry at the very edge of libyan territory but that is somewhat tangential. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/09/libyan-parliament-refuge-greek-car-ferry)

In Syria/Iraq you have no such thing, the only groups staunchly opposed to ISIS are the Kurdish/Assad/Hezbollah block with Al Nusra/various Islamic opposition groups and FSA (if these guys actually still exist outside of simple defensive territorial militias, which is debatable) often allying with ISIS. The KRG and Iraqi Government seem very reluctant if not incapable of actually attacking ISIS and advancing into Sunni areas. Nato members are all abhorrent against boots on the ground so far, and Turkey seems content to watch ISIS cleanse the kobane kurds right at their border.

The other facet of the plan devised by great minds in western strategic command and intelligence is that the best way to destroy ISIS with boots on the ground is to funnel more weapons and training to the 'moderate' opposition, ie those who have often allied with ISIS in the past, and who have been key in fighting against Assad and his allies. So far, it doesn't add up.

[bush_cheney2004]

That leaves 63% disillusioned with politics. All the more reason to vote to keep us as a Peacekeeping nation.

Agreed...the "peacekeeping" masquerade is a necessary component for the Canadian body politic, even when presented with contrary facts. It helps to cement a Canadian identity that is different from the U.S., even as the bombs fall from CF-188's.

[waldo]

The other facet of the plan devised by great minds in western strategic command and intelligence is that the best way to destroy ISIS with boots on the ground is to funnel more weapons and training to the 'moderate' opposition, ie those who have often allied with ISIS in the past, and who have been key in fighting against Assad and his allies. So far, it doesn't add up.

don't forget the '2-guys in a Toyota" taken out by F-22s!

[PIK]

Because the moment Israel got involved, people like yourself would lose all perspective and blame everything on Israel. The media would focus 100% on Israel ignoring all other parts of the conflict. The UN would proclaim that the only way to achieve peace with IS would be to give it half of Israel's land. And many "liberals" would leap to the defense of poor IS "civilians" who never did anything bad besides chopping off a few heads being cruelly targeted by evil-zionist-imperialist-international-banker-conspiracy-9/11-orchestrating-genocidal-neonazis. That's why.

The best way for Israel to escape the irrational hatred of the ignorant is to stay out of the news.

You nailed it and I wish they would allow Israel in toi help. It could bring these countries together. Someone said here about the congo, well nobody knows about the congo,because the media was to busy making Israel out to be a ISIS type group. Israel kills a 100 big story, congonese get slaughter,who cares.

[PIK]

don't forget the '2-guys in a Toyota" taken out by F-22s!

Good, they can do some major damage, asked the germans about the SAS desert rats. Good point waldo, glad to see you coming around.

[dre]

Mind you, beheading is not very noble either but we are supposed to be more "civilized" are we not?

Well... considering the west still has its collective nose up Saudi Arabias ass, and theyve beheaded almost 20 people in the last year, it seems like we must be ok with it.

[Solidarity]

As the war on ISIS ramps up and Syria takes a central awareness in foreign affairs discussion I think it's a good time to reflect upon the Syrian Civil War in general. It's stunning to see how undignified national leaders and the global community are capable of acting, while caught in the clutches of rampant corruption, narcissism and realpolitik which seem to control decision making within government. The international community, and 'world superpowers', have allowed this war to go on for roughly 1300 days, and shown a total lack of effort to stop the suffering. The fact that the rebels were lunatic fundamentalists was evident long before the current beheading, remember the jihadi who tore out and ate a Syrian soldiers heart? Syria is hell on earth .

The statistics of the war are staggering. 200k-250K dead, 5+ Million refugees, over 25% of the pre-war population. Historical cities reduced to rubble, scenes of total devastation and destruction not seen since the Russians leveled Grozny. The world community allowed Syria to be destroyed, mainly by Al Qaeda and ISIS, when we are literally in the midst of a 'war against terror'. Inaction is not enough for some of our allies however, apparently they must increase the chaos, death, and misery. The radical opposition is armed with loads of American/euro kit and drive around in Humvees towing American artillery. ? Machiavellian strategic goals, gross incompetence, or just a complete lack of empathy, whatever the reason, the whole world either sat back and watched it happen or threw fuel on the fire... for 1300 days.

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/51910e14ecad046e01000007/image.jpg

http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1378266/homs.jpg

http://ghadry.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Syrian-Forces-Advance-on-Aleppo-Rebels-Fear-Another-Siege.jpg

https://www.wodumedia.com/wp-content/uploads/Smoke-billows-over-shelled-and-destroyed-buildings-in-Aleppo-Syria-where-the-Syrian-army-has-brought-in-reinforcements-to-try-to-end-the-rebels-resistance.jpg

http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1378262/city.jpg

The west and Canada has spilt a lot of blood and spent a decades worth of our potential wealth and growth on ramped up intelligence, military operations, security theater, ('leadership' summits like the G20) while in the meantime our national debt increased, and important sectors such as public transportation, the legal system (needs serious reform), healthcare, arctic development and education saw minor improvement at best, mainly stagnancy or decay. We have nothing to show for it except chaos and destruction

Edited October 8, 2014 by Solidarity

[Argus]

I recall a time when Canada stood for 'Peacekeeping'. Studies have shown that when peacekeeping countries are deployed, there is a 50% greater chance of attaining credible peace. Canada once had an international reputation of fighting to preserve peace. Whatever happened to those ideals that many of us Canadians stood for. What happened to us?

Oh doh! Nostalgic for another era, are we? That's nice. I get that way too. What I don't do is forget that we're not IN that era any more. Peacekeeping was a product of an era in which the major combatants had some respect for the peacekeeping force. That ended some years ago. Then peacekeepers became targets, chained to bridges, hacked to death, taken hostage and shot by a variety of elements around the world, particularly in Africa and the middle east. All peacekeepers would be in the conflict involving ISIS is a steady supply of hostages to behead for the cameras.

That's leaving aside the fact peacekeepers don't go in somewhere until both sides agree on a cease fire, which is not the case here.

[Derek 2.0]

I recall a time when Canada stood for 'Peacekeeping'. Studies have shown that when peacekeeping countries are deployed, there is a 50% greater chance of attaining credible peace. Canada once had an international reputation of fighting to preserve peace. Whatever happened to those ideals that many of us Canadians stood for. What happened to us?

That is a common myth........The Blue Beret Peacekeeper image, circa ~1960-1995, was only effective when the various warring parties both desired peace, but didn't know how to keep it......Sending lightly armed members of the Canadian Forces to Iraq to stand between the Iraqi army/Kurds and ISIS is a surefire way to get Canadians killed.........ISIS is not seeking peace, likewise many of the later UN missions of the 80s and 90s requiring Peacemaking prior to a semblance of a "peaceful society" taking root.

Also, throughout the "Peacekeeping era", the vast majority of the Canadian Forces were geared to fight a third world war in Europe and the North Atlantic........

[Derek 2.0]

Agreed...the "peacekeeping" masquerade is a necessary component for the Canadian body politic, even when presented with contrary facts. It helps to cement a Canadian identity that is different from the U.S., even as the bombs fall from CF-188's.

This is very true........after the failed "blue beret" mission in the FRY, Canadian Hornets were added to a US led force by our then Liberal Government, to bomb targets to make a "peace" in the region.......the end result, great success.

[GostHacked]

As the war on ISIS ramps up and Syria takes a central awareness in foreign affairs discussion I think it's a good time to reflect upon the Syrian Civil War in general.

It was NEVER a civil war in Syria.

[jbg]

I have attempted to begin a new thread because this "conflict" is now a full fledged war.

It is official, the USA has just declared war on ISIL and is trying to get support from other nations. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), a self proclaimed caliphate which claims parts of Iraq and Syria as its new nation, is now the focus of American (and perhaps Canadian) military action.

The White House has labelled this as “war” in anticipation of prolonged military expedition.

War has not been declared by Congress. I doubt Obama will ask for a declaration of war. He should.

[Solidarity]

It was NEVER a civil war in Syria.

You would have to elaborate. Foreign intervention, mercenaries and intelligence games don't take away from the fact Syria fractured, and fought along ethno-religious lines.

[waldo]

You would have to elaborate. Foreign intervention, mercenaries and intelligence games don't take away from the fact Syria fractured, and fought along ethno-religious lines.

there's a want by some to refer to it as a revolution, rather than the civil war it is... 'wordsmithing'.

[GostHacked]

You would have to elaborate. Foreign intervention, mercenaries and intelligence games don't take away from the fact Syria fractured, and fought along ethno-religious lines.

How do you explain it to be a civil war when most of the rebels are not even from Syria?

[Solidarity]

How do you explain it to be a civil war when most of the rebels are not even from Syria?

What is the evidence that most of the rebels are not Syrian? Sources I've seen peg foreign fighters at around 12K over the length of the conflict (http://soufangroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/TSG-Foreign-Fighters-in-Syria.pdf). That's significant, but still nowhere near being the majority of the rebels.

[GostHacked]

What is the evidence that most of the rebels are not Syrian? Sources I've seen peg foreign fighters at around 12K over the length of the conflict (http://soufangroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/TSG-Foreign-Fighters-in-Syria.pdf). That's significant, but still nowhere near being the majority of the rebels.

We've been discussing that for the past couple years. Based on the synopsis of that paper, they seem to be confused as to it being a civil war. It is not a civil war. Never was. Remember that Turkey allowed the FSA to operate in Syria from a safe haven in Turkey. That automatically puts Turkey on one side of this civil war. Same with Jordan and the rebels being trained and equipped by the US military.

Again, this was NEVER a civil war. Afghanistan was not a civil war when they were fighting off the Soviets. Syria is in the same category.

Even if it is true that some of the rebels are not Syrian, then I wonder how it can be called a civil war. Once Obama, Harper and others took the sides of the rebels and started putting money and funds and bases of operations into their hands, it instantly stopped being a civil war.