Argus Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) - an end to the stifling blockade. What blockade? They seem able to get their hands on thousands of rockets but they can't get their hands on medicine? Shows where their priorities are at. - the permanent opening of the Rafah crossing with Egypt So they can get even more weapons in? - an arrangement to allow Gazans to pray in Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem Sure, so they can get more suicide bombers into Israel. - the release of political prisoners held by Israel. Terrorists, you mean. Edited July 20, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 No, what i see is folks here who are against the murdering of innocent civilians, regardless of which side they belong to. No, what I see are folks who are against the killing of civilians but considering the situation see this as unavoidable, and folks who are against the killing of civilians but who don't stop to consider any of the implications and just say "Peace now!" like that's of any value or use... The Israelis are not going to just let Hamas fire rockets into Israel. That's a non-starter. They're also not going to surrender to Hamas and give them what they want in order to get them to stop firing rockets at them. That too is a non-starter. If Palestinians have to die in order for Israel to stop the rockets then those Palestinians - who wholeheartedly support Hamas firing rockets - are just going to have to die. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 If killing of 600 civilians to stop the rocket bombardment is acceptable collateral damage then why not 6,000 or 1.8 million – the whole population? No Palestinians then no rockets.. If it comes to that, then it comes to that. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 It's obvious that these people do not share our values and moral standard. Not with what they're teaching their children. Jews, you mean? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Jews, you mean?Militant Israelis.How convenient to conflate hardline right wing Israelis - now in power - with all Jews, and call 'anti-semitism'. You do know that many Jews protest Israel's bombing of civilians ... even Israeli Jews: Jews Against Genocide (JAG) held a memorial service in front of the Knesset for Palestinian children killed by Israel in its current attack on Gaza. government-murdering-children-with-my-money-says-israeli-jew young-jews-stage-die-boston-protest-israeli-war/6286 Canadian Arabs and Canadian Jews are often involved in the same protests of Israel's actions. . Edited July 20, 2014 by jacee Quote
cybercoma Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 And again, the sniveling complaints that they aren't killing ENOUGH Jews and so the battle is unfair is just pointless drool.Some people won't be happy unless Hamas is as efficient as Nazi Germany in exterminating the Jews because those bastards keep building houses in Palestine. Quote
jacee Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Some people won't be happy unless Hamas is as efficient as Nazi Germany in exterminating the Jews because those bastards keep building houses in Palestine. That's disgusting. . Quote
jbg Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 I think the "human shield" thing is way overplayed since civilian casualties are "guaranteed" no matter where bombs fall.Well the Gazans could fight Israel the old fashioned way; in uniform and using attacking armies. If they insist on "fighting" from civilian areas what do they expect? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jacee Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Well the Gazans could fight Israel the old fashioned way; in uniform and using attacking armies. If they insist on "fighting" from civilian areas what do they expect? They only have civilian areas in Gaza. 1.6m people, same size and density as Philadelphia. . Quote
cybercoma Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 That's disgusting. . Yeah. I've already said as much. Quote
Big Guy Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) “Big Guy, on 20 Jul 2014 - 12:15 PM, said: If killing of 600 civilians to stop the rocket bombardment is acceptable collateral damage then why not 6,000 or 1.8 million – the whole population? No Palestinians then no rockets..” “Argus If it comes to that, then it comes to that.” Apparently we agree that when the policy is one that the end justifies the means then there is always a solution – the final solution. Militarily it works and has worked in the past but morally and ethically it has been rejected by civilized societies. In fact I think it was ruled as a war crime when it was applied in Rwanda. I believe that there is a limit to what is acceptable as the means to satisfy an end. It is often referred to as an “appropriate response”. The deaths of 1.8 million people to protect a couple of hundred seems a little one sided to me – but that is only if one considers a Palestinian civilian and an Israeli civilian to be of equal value. It appears that some on this board do not. Edited July 20, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Big Guy Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Some people won't be happy unless Hamas is as efficient as Nazi Germany in exterminating the Jews because those bastards keep building houses in Palestine. When a poster on an opinion board invokes Godwin's Law that usually means that he/she is no longer interested in meaningful discussion. That is unfortunate. I would have expected better. Those Hamas folks are a long way from exterminating the population of Israel. Their rockets are getting a little more sophisticated these days but for years they were making them out of sewer pipes. I would imagine it is difficult to make surgical strikes with an explosives laden sewer pipe. Looks to me more like the Keystone Cops playing at war. But Israel has invaded Gaza - again. They are killing more civilians - again. They are suffering losses of some of their soldiers being killed - again. There is some protest coming from pacifists in Israel - again. There is talk of another cease fire - again. Stay tuned for a couple year break and then we will see Gaza-Israeli war #4. It might help if Israel stopped building settlements on Palestinian land for a few years. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Boges Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 When a poster on an opinion board invokes Godwin's Law that usually means that he/she is no longer interested in meaningful discussion. That is unfortunate. I would have expected better. Those Hamas folks are a long way from exterminating the population of Israel. Their rockets are getting a little more sophisticated these days but for years they were making them out of sewer pipes. I would imagine it is difficult to make surgical strikes with an explosives laden sewer pipe. Looks to me more like the Keystone Cops playing at war. But Israel has invaded Gaza - again. They are killing more civilians - again. They are suffering losses of some of their soldiers being killed - again. There is some protest coming from pacifists in Israel - again. There is talk of another cease fire - again. Stay tuned for a couple year break and then we will see Gaza-Israeli war #4. It might help if Israel stopped building setlements on Palestinian land for a few years. Except when you're talking about hatred of the Jews. It would seem that comparison would be rather apt. There's an actual hashtag on Twitter #hitlerwasright. Saying that because Hamas poses a low level of threat doesn't mean Israel should ignore it. I remember when I was in college these altercations were started because Militants would blow themselves up in cafes. Israel got tough about who could be within their borders. Now people compare them to South Africa. If they can neutralize Hamas's ability to attack civilians then I'm predicting we'll see an extended period of relative peace. Remember it was Hamas who rejected a ceasefire when they had the most to lose. Quote
scribblet Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 I don't often agree with Bill Maher but check this out on youtube http://youtu.be/6qeHvd8Tdmo Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
Argus Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Apparently we agree that when the policy is one that the end justifies the means then there is always a solution – the final solution. Militarily it works and has worked in the past but morally and ethically it has been rejected by civilized societies. Which civilized societies? Certainly not ours. All societies work on one ultimate truth: do as you're told or you will be killed. You will obey all rules, regulations and laws -- or else. The state will use whatever level of force is necessary to force compliance, up to and including killing you, even if it's to enforce compliance on a minor rule. Don't believe me? Try to resist the state enforcing anything, be it the height of your fence or what noise you make at night. It will send people to your house to make you comply. Any resistance will be met by greater force. And if that ultimately means they have to kill you to overcome your resistance, well, the state is okay with that. I believe that there is a limit to what is acceptable as the means to satisfy an end. I guarantee you Canada does not agree, nor does the government of your province or your municipality. It is often referred to as an “appropriate response”. The deaths of 1.8 million people to protect a couple of hundred seems a little one sided to me Who says it's to protect a couple of hundred people? Millions are at threat from these continued rocket attacks, having to spend their time in bomb shelters, running from screaming sirens. No state is going to accept that. No state. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Shady Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 I don't often agree with Bill Maher but check this out on youtube http://youtu.be/6qeHvd8Tdmo Yep. He's exactly right. Quote
Big Guy Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Which civilized societies? Certainly not ours. All societies work on one ultimate truth: do as you're told or you will be killed. You will obey all rules, regulations and laws -- or else. The state will use whatever level of force is necessary to force compliance, up to and including killing you, even if it's to enforce compliance on a minor rule. Don't believe me? Try to resist the state enforcing anything, be it the height of your fence or what noise you make at night. It will send people to your house to make you comply. Any resistance will be met by greater force. And if that ultimately means they have to kill you to overcome your resistance, well, the state is okay with that. I guarantee you Canada does not agree, nor does the government of your province or your municipality. Who says it's to protect a couple of hundred people? Millions are at threat from these continued rocket attacks, having to spend their time in bomb shelters, running from screaming sirens. No state is going to accept that. No state. Thank you for your candor. I now better understand your views and opinions shared in this venue. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
marcus Posted July 21, 2014 Report Posted July 21, 2014 Because left on their own Palestine would be a middle east powerhouse and not yet another broken down shithole like Yemen. Your stereotyping and racism do not qualify or give credibility to your comments. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
marcus Posted July 21, 2014 Report Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Overnight the Israeli military pounded the Gaza City neighborhood of Shijaiyeh. The social media updates from locals and international journalists on the scene described a terrifying bombardment that continued unabated for 24 hours since Saturday night. Over 70 people have been reported to have been killed. Majority civilians. Here is a blog from Al Jazeera. Warning: The following video is graphic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZqqlQNZT4 Edited July 21, 2014 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
GostHacked Posted July 21, 2014 Report Posted July 21, 2014 So ... what is this?? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza Won't allow me to cut and paste properlly, but read the info for yourself. But apparently Israel phased out flechette tank shells. http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/14/us-arms-israel-tanks-interview-idUSTRE62D15C20100314 (Reuters) - Israel is phasing out a U.S.-made tank shell that sprays thousands of deadly darts over a wide area, in favor of a more precise round produced locally, a senior army officer said on Sunday. With their 300-meter kill zone, "flechette" shells fired in congested Palestinian areas, as well as in Lebanon, have caused frequent civilian casualties and attracted international condemnation. Flechettes were used during Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip 15 months ago and enough of them remain in store for several years' worth of training and operations, but no more would be bought, said Brigadier-General Agay Yehezkel, commander of the Armoured Corps. Quote
marcus Posted July 21, 2014 Report Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) More on Shijaiyeh. Israeli human rights lawyer Michael Sfard speak to Raji Sourani, founder and director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, about the ongoing destruction in Shujaiyeh, the use of human shields and the fate of Gaza’s civilian population. This is very, very serious. I think the army is losing their minds. They really want to inflict pain and terror on the civilians. Link Here is a video: Edited July 21, 2014 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Posted July 21, 2014 Pain and terror also comes from thousands of rocket attacks. I guess Hamas lost their minds a long time ago. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
marcus Posted July 21, 2014 Report Posted July 21, 2014 Some positive movement in Israel: Pro-Peace Protests Are Sweeping Israel Right Now… and Israeli ‘JDL’ Fascists Are Freaking Out Counter-Current News (20 July 2014) "Only yesterday we reported on protests against the War on Gaza that had flooded the streets of Jerusalem with thousands of protesters. Jews and Muslims marched side-by-side in support of civilians in Gaza, and yet the vast majority of the corporate, mainstream media completely ignored this story. Later yesterday, Neo-Fascist Kahanist members of the “Jewish Defense League” (classified as “a right-wing terrorist group” by the FBI in 2001), showed up in Haifa to form a right-wing violent demonstrations against an anti-war protest where Israeli Defense Forces veterans read testimonies of their service in the Israeli army." Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
dre Posted July 21, 2014 Report Posted July 21, 2014 At last some clarity. Israel has in your view "no just claim" to any of its territory. Thanks for your clarity and edification. Well... you clarified your inability to read at least. Israel has a claim to ALL of its territory. It just doesnt have a claim to any of the territory its conquered, and the reality is it officially asserts no claim. Even Israel does not claim that the west bank or Gaza are Israeli soil (with some exceptions). So this idea that palestinians should go somewhere else is really just beyond stupid. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
cybercoma Posted July 21, 2014 Report Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) When a poster on an opinion board invokes Godwin's Law that usually means that he/she is no longer interested in meaningful discussion.When posters on a forum show an intolerance for Jews and their safety, indeed cheering on those who have called for their deaths, then Godwin's Law doesn't exactly apply, does it? In fact, the complete and utter disregard for Jews wasn't invoked by me at all. This was already the underlying tone of a lot of people's posts here. And I say Jews, because it's the innocent civilians who're being targeted by Hamas. Not the government and not the Israeli military. Edited July 21, 2014 by cybercoma Quote
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