Big Guy Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 No you're not. You're criticizing Israel and giving Hamas a pass because Israel happens to be able to defend against terrorist. Hamas is using civilians to try to forward its agenda. Israel is falling into that trap and killing civilians to try to forward its agenda. The more innocent Palestinian women and children that are killed by the Israelis then the more potential Palestinians martyrs are being created. This is a long term strategy by both antagonists. The question is of who will win in the end. Every year, the population of Israel increases. Every year, more land is going to be required to accommodate the expanding population. Every year, Israel is building more settlements to accommodate expansion. All indictors show that Israel will soon own Gaza and even more territory. While the Palestinians will not recognize Israel, Israel appears to be prepared to eventually take all of the Palestine as part of Israel. The last 80 years indicate that they will be successful. The trends are easy to observe. I just wonder why they are taking so long. They have an overwhelming military superiority, overwhelming financial support from the USA and Canada and have nuclear capability. The end result of stopping those missiles can justify the means to do that. What is the difference if there are 20 Palestinian civilians killed, or 200, or 2,000 or ... who cares? Why take it slowly? There are chemical weapons, nuclear weapons and all kinds of military might available. The Israeli military can guarantee that there will never again be missiles coming out of Gaza. No Palestinians - no missiles. There is a final solution. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
WestCoastRunner Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 I'm disgusted with both Israel and Hamas. I find it completely unconscionable that anyone would justify or otherwise condone anyone trying to murder innocent civilians, regardless of which side they're on. Yet time and time again, we have people who see Israelis as disposable in the fight for Palestinian independence. No, what i see is folks here who are against the murdering of innocent civilians, regardless of which side they belong to. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
jacee Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 No, what i see is folks here who are against the murdering of innocent civilians, regardless of which side they belong to. Yes. . Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Yes. . amen Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
jbg Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 What a stupid question. Palestinians already have a territory. Its where they live and were born. And it WAS carved out of an Arab state. Israel has no legal or just claim to ANY of it.At last some clarity. Israel has in your view "no just claim" to any of its territory. Thanks for your clarity and edification. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
GostHacked Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 At last some clarity. Israel has in your view "no just claim" to any of its territory. Thanks for your clarity and edification. What makes the claim valid? Quote
cybercoma Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) No, what i see is folks here who are against the murdering of innocent civilians, regardless of which side they belong to.You see people who ignorantly think Hamas is firing "warning shots" and completely ignore the fact that they have routinely targeted civilian populations in Israel for years. They give Hamas a pass while harshly criticizing Israel, despite Israel's actions being retaliation for a direct and very real threat to its civilian population. What kind of twisted morality weeps for Palestinians while completely devaluing the lives of Israelis by condoning rocket attacks aimed at civilians? What makes a person condemn the Jewish state for defending itself while justifying the inhumanity of the bastards who use civilians as shields? It's sick and ignorant, deserving of the utmost contempt. Edited July 20, 2014 by cybercoma Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) You see people who ignorantly think Hamas is firing "warning shots" and completely ignore the fact that they have routinely targeted civilian populations in Israel for years. They give Hamas a pass while harshly criticizing Israel, despite Israel's actions being retaliation for a direct and very real threat to its civilian population. What kind of twisted morality weeps for Palestinians while completely devaluing the lives of Israelis by condoning rocket attacks aimed at civilians? What makes a person condemn the Jewish state for defending itself while justifying the inhumanity of the bastards who use civilians as shields? It's sick and ignorant, deserving of the utmost contempt. You are ignoring the innocent palestinian children being massacred. Edited July 20, 2014 by WestCoastRunner Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
TimG Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 You are ignoring the innocent palestinian children being massacred.You need to take that up with Hamas. Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 et'sYou need to take that up with Hamas. It doesn't matter who these children belong to does it? Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 It sure doesn't matter to the Hamas Model Rocket Club. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 It doesn't matter who these children belong to does it?it doesn't matter that Hamas uses human shields? That's sick. Quote
jbg Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 You need to take that up with Hamas. It doesn't matter who these children belong to does it? Israel uses weapons to protect its people. Hamas uses people to protect their weapons. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jacee Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) http://www.vox.com/2014/7/16/5904691/hamas-israel-gaza-11-things The Gaza Strip is 146 square miles, and has a population of about 1.6 million. That's a lot of people in a very small area. For perspective, Philadelphia is about 142 square miles and has about 1.5 million citizens. In other words, the entire Gaza Strip is basically as dense as a major American city. ... This matters for the current conflict, because it makes it very hard for Israel to bomb from the air without hitting civilians. Hamas also places rocket emplacements inside civilian population centers, so Israeli aerial offensives inside Gaza are basically guaranteed to kill lots of non-combatants no matter how much Israel attempts to avoid it. And Israel bombs Gaza anyway. I think the "human shield" thing is way overplayed since civilian casualties are "guaranteed" no matter where bombs fall. . . Edited July 20, 2014 by jacee Quote
GostHacked Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 This is a little disturbing. Just as disturbing as children suicide bombers. Quote
jacee Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 I think kids could be led to say those things on both sides. Kind of a sick thing for 'journalists' to do, imo. . Quote
GostHacked Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 I think kids could be led to say those things on both sides. Kind of a sick thing for 'journalists' to do, imo. . It's not just the Arabs guilty of this. Both are using the children to perpetuate further conflicts. Quote
jacee Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 It's not just the Arabs guilty of this. Both are using the children to perpetuate further conflicts. I just think the 'journalists' are being unethical. . Quote
GostHacked Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 I just think the 'journalists' are being unethical. . It is unethical. A nice PR stunt for propaganda and brain washing to get them thinking a certain way. I felt the same way when I was a kid being interested in military aircraft and capabilities. I do not have the same passion for that anymore, now that I am older and hopefully wiser. I actually wanted to be an air force pilot. But I don't think I would have had the capacity to kill. I would not have cut it. Quote
Big Guy Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) I learned years ago that in international events to deal with the acts, not the spin or explanation or the assumption of who is doing what for what reason. That is speculation. In opinions forums, the speculation is based on the individuals prejudices, philosophy and interpretation of the news. For that reason, I look at international events like I would follow a chess game. Each move is made for a reason and the end game is to win – something. I stay away from the good guys and bad guys analysis since to-days good guys soon become tomorrows bad guys – and vice versa. That is also why I stay away from the silly “You are just an apologist for ...” and “You right wing/Left wing etc..” and the really silly name calling. When I visit a park I like to watch a chess match and not play in the sandbox. The major difficulty with my approach is to get to the facts of what is really happening on the ground. It is very difficult to glean that information. In this conflict, Hamas militia is firing rockets into Israel in order to elicit a reaction from Israel. With every retaliatory bombing and invasion, the Israelis are killing a completely disproportionate number of Palestinian civilians. They know that bombing will not eradicate the rockets because it never has in the past. Hamas is drawing Israel into a slaughter by Israel of Palestinian civilians. The result is world denunciation of the Israeli attacks on civilians and Hamas keeping the conflict on the front pages. They have no other tools – yet. The Israeli position is clear – if you shoot rockets into Israel whether you hit anything or not we will kill as many civilians as needed to stop the process. If the world accepts that premise then Israel will be free to annihilate every Palestinian in Gaza. It has the military capability and the nuclear bomb – although using the bomb would make the area uninhabitable for later settlement. Israel also has chemical weapons and an overwhelming armed force. If killing of 600 civilians to stop the rocket bombardment is acceptable collateral damage then why not 6,000 or 1.8 million – the whole population? No Palestinians then no rockets. As I have said before, when one accepts that the end justifies the means then there is always a final solution. Edited July 20, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
marcus Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 This is a little disturbing. Just as disturbing as children suicide bombers. "What do you imagine doing?" "Killing Arabs!" It's obvious that these people do not share our values and moral standard. Not with what they're teaching their children. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
scribblet Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 ......As I have said before, when one accepts that the end justifies the means then there is always a final solution. Poor choice of words there.. Israeli soldiers are dying so their civilians won't. Palestinian civilians are dying so their soldiers won't. Golda Meir had it right “We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.” Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
GostHacked Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 "What do you imagine doing?" "Killing Arabs!" It's obvious that these people do not share our values and moral standard. Not with what they're teaching their children. Both sides only care that they are teaching their own to continue the battle for skygod supremacy. Again, as an atheist, the actions on both sides seem to conflict with their supposed love of life and love of god. None of them share the same values or moral code as I do. I would even say you and I do not share the same values or moral codes. Although there are common ones among all of us, believer and non believers alike. Quote
Argus Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 How amazingly charitable of the occupying power who has suppressed the Palestinian economy by controlling its import/export, controlling its natural resources, holding back tax money they collect on their behalf and hundreds of other ways of holding them back by offering work permits so that the Palestinians can work low wage jobs israelis will not do, but some Palestinians will do, just so they could feed their children. Because left on their own Palestine would be a middle east powerhouse and not yet another broken down shithole like Yemen. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 20, 2014 Report Posted July 20, 2014 Beg pardon? How many Israeli civilian casualties? "Targetting"? Please. The rockets create fear, granted, but they aren't "targetting" anything much, except maybe dirt. They're aiming at Israeli cities. There's no question whatsoever that the aim is to kill Israelis. And again, the sniveling complaints that they aren't killing ENOUGH Jews and so the battle is unfair is just pointless drool. Of course the Israelis are better armed. Of course they're better at it. All the more reason for the terrorists to stop firing rockets into Israel if they gave a damn about their own casualties. But as one Israeli has said "We use our missiles to defend our civilians. They use their civilians to defend their missiles." Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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