Encouraging Developments Against Zionist Apartheid Regime!

[Rue]

GhostHack you are absolutely wrong. Dead wrong. Netanyahu is for a two state solution. Rather than make such unfounded allegations go find out what his position is. You are completely and utterly wrong.

[Black Dog]

GhostHack you are absolutely wrong. Dead wrong. Netanyahu is for a two state solution. Rather than make such unfounded allegations go find out what his position is. You are completely and utterly wrong.

Yeah I mean how hard is it to find out what the guy really thinks?

Netanyahu has stressed often in the past that he doesn’t want Israel to become a binational state — implying that he favors some kind of accommodation with and separation from the Palestinians. But on Friday he made explicit that this could not extend to full Palestinian sovereignty. Why? Because, given the march of Islamic extremism across the Middle East, he said, Israel simply cannot afford to give up control over the territory immediately to its east, including the eastern border — that is, the border between Israel and Jordan, and the West Bank and Jordan.

The priority right now, Netanyahu stressed, was to “take care of Hamas.” But the wider lesson of the current escalation was that Israel had to ensure that “we don’t get another Gaza in Judea and Samaria.” Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.”

Link.

[GostHacked]

GhostHack you are absolutely wrong. Dead wrong. Netanyahu is for a two state solution. Rather than make such unfounded allegations go find out what his position is. You are completely and utterly wrong.

Well then you need to take that up with Netanyahu, he said it, not me. Proof is in the one video of him using the last name Natay back in the 80s or 90s. He said it right in the video that he does not support a two state solution.

Edited July 29, 2014 by GostHacked

[TimG]

Yeah I mean how hard is it to find out what the guy really thinks?

Nothing in is statement is inconsistent with a long term desire for a two state solution. Saying that short term security concerns are a higher priority does not negate that position.

[Rue]

Well it happened. I actually appreciated BlackDog's comments on Zionism and Zionist.

Dre and Jacee your stereotype of Zionist is dead wrong,. In fact there are what we call Biblical or religious Zionists who use the Old Testament as reference to claim all of Judea and Somaria. They would be about one third of the settlers on the West Bank or about 125,000 or so people.

They are a minority and yes they are extremist and believe all of Judea and Somaria belongs to the Jewish people.

The vast majority of Israelis though are not them.

Most Israelis are not religious and so their concept of Zionism is not relgiious.

You would understand that if you lived there and had to be called up into the army and fight your whole life. Your take on God is different then people in Canada. It reflects the on-going and constant tension, feeling of being threatened simply for existing as a Jewish collective. God is not a thing you pray to as much s it is a responsibility to keep your fellow citizens alive and act honourably, i.e., do your best to protect your citizens from terrorists but not be overwhelmed by the violence and let that violence destroy the civility and humanity within you.

Its a fine line. It consumes you. It is a tight rope walk with never becoming so angry you lose control of the big picture.

I doubt anyone understands it but its an ideology that is simply one based on we will live as Jews collectively and if you have a problem with that, here we are, come try take us out because we have no where to go.

In a way it reflects the same reality as Palestinians in that they too are trapped with no where to go. But Israelis are not bombarded with religious messages that they must wage a war against all Muslims behind every tree as it says in the Hamas Charter. The Israeli constitution does not require Arab Israelis to swear allegiance to aJ ewish God as the Palestinian Charter demands allegiance to Allah.

The state and Jewish religion connection is not as with Sharia law and the Muslim state. The State in Israel does not disallow Muslims from voting, owning land, electing their own Mayors and Knesset members, getting free legal aid, being able to go to one of over 125 Human Rights organizations to complain about the Israeli government, being free to stand up in the Knesset and demand Israel be dismantled as a Jewish state.

There are extremists in Israel that not only want all of Judea and Somaria but also call for the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state and its not just Muslim political parties, its ultra Orthodox Jews and the Communist Party.

The vast majority of Zionists outside Israel are like myself. We were specifically taught that to be a Zionist means compromise....not over whether we have a right to exist...but with sharing water, resources, knowledge.

We were taught Arabs are as natural to the land as we Jews are.We were not taught to disrespect Arab culture. We were not taught to hate Arabs.

We were taught to learn Arabic, learn the Arabic customs, live side by side. There was no vision of having to kill Arabs or engage in protracted war where civilians would die.

Our vision of Zionism comes from taking a final stand to thousands of years or Christian and Muslim persecution and saying, no never again, no holocaust, no more pogroms, no more dhimmitude, no more, we will be our own Masters and our collective will express itself through a state identity so that never again will we be second class citizens.

No Arab leader at this time will come out and dare say, its time we accept Israel can not ever be a Muslim state. Enough. Its time to disarm so the IDF will have no reason to shoot at us.

Dre has no clue about Jewish history and neither does Jacee. Their concept of Zionism comes from reading selective opinions from anti Zionists.

I am a Zionist. All it means is I went to Israel and scrubbed toilets, tended grapefruit trees, dug ditches,served as a medic cleaning infected toes of Palestinian children on the West Bank tried to rehabilitate endangered animals, try prevent water from getting contaminated.

I did not go over to hate Arabs or Palestinians. I was taught respect them. I went over to remember the holocaust survivors and refugees from dhimmitude and how such people who refused to allow their identity to be extinguished made me a better person for it.

They did not teach me false pride but humility and the realization Arabs are no different than Israelis or Jews. we want the same thing.

No real Zionist sits cheering the death of Palestinian children or innocent civilians. We loath it. We loath the suffering but unless someone has a true alternative to preventing Hamas from wiping us out, we do what we have to do and pray we get to Hamas before they use even more of their people as shields.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Rue

[Black Dog]

Nothing in is statement is inconsistent with a long term desire for a two state solution. Saying that short term security concerns are a higher priority does not negate that position.

Read this bit again:

“I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.”

IOW: if there's a state to be created, it's one over which Israel will maintain security control, which means such a state wouldn't be a state at all.

[Rue]

Ghost you need to keep reading. His position changed. You are quoting a position he denounced.

As well Blackdog is taking his comments out of their actual context. He is referring to keeping a security parameter on the West Bank not the entre West Bank.

Man can you at least find out what he is actually stating before you quote it out of context.

Netanyahu changed his position and has been embracing a two state solution since the end of 2012.

Can you people at least make an effort to not be so selective in your presenting of his views. Please don't tell me you can't find this on the internet or were aware that AIPC the American Israeli lobby group you claim controls America has always been for a two state solution.

it is true there are members of Likud that do not agree with a 2 state solution and some right wing parties that do not but the majority of Israelis including Netanyahu are for a two state solution.

Stop stating absolutely false positions he does not support.

[Rue]

No Blackdog it means an independent state that would not be armed with terrorists whose charter is dedicated to wiping out Israel.

[Black Dog]

No Blackdog it means an independent state that would not be armed with terrorists whose charter is dedicated to wiping out Israel.

A state whose security is controlled by another is not independent. It's just that simple.

[iolo]

Netenyahu's two state solution - Zionists alive, Palaestinains dead. What's new?

[Black Dog]

Netenyahu's two state solution - Zionists alive, Palaestinains dead. What's new?

This is a forum for grownups. Take your silly sloganeering elsewhere.

[TimG]

IOW: if there's a state to be created, it's one over which Israel will maintain security control, which means such a state wouldn't be a state at all.

There can be no peace without addressing Israel's security concerns. There is no evidence that a Palestinian state would have the capacity to do that leaving Israeli with no choice but to continue maintaining security. However, such a situation would not need to last forever - all it would require is that the new Palestinian prove that it is capable of taking on these responsibilities. This does not mean the new state should not be created until Israel gives up control of security. Edited July 29, 2014 by TimG

[overthere]

A state whose security is controlled by another is not independent. It's just that simple.

Are you talking about Israel and its neighbours or Canada/USA?

[iolo]

Dog - Look at the murderous facts and stop supporting murder and pretending murderers shouldn't be driven out of the human race, racist scum, as they are.!

[iolo]

As we all knows, there can be no peace until 'Israel' is abolished and replaced with a non-racist State.

[bush_cheney2004]

Netanyahu changed his position and has been embracing a two state solution since the end of 2012.

Even earlier than that, as we learned when the CBC published false news about PM Netanyahu and had to issue a correction:

“Statehood has proved elusive for the Palestinians, in part because Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refused to endorse a two-state solution and has said established Jewish settlements must be allowed in areas like the West Bank to expand for natural growth of settler families.”

Contrary to this statement, at a prime-time address delivered at Bar-Ilan University near Tel Aviv on June 14, 2009, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu endorsed the two-state solution, thereby supporting the creation of a Palestinian state.

After HonestReporting Canada brought this matter to the attention of senior producers at CBC.ca, the following correction was promptly issued: “An earlier version of this story said Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refused to endorse a two-state solution. In fact, Netanyahu has endorsed a two-state solution but with several conditions attached.

[Black Dog]

There can be no peace without addressing Israel's security concerns. There is no evidence that a Palestinian state would have the capacity to do that leaving Israeli with no choice but to continue maintaining security. However, such a situation would not need to last forever - all it would require is that the new Palestinian prove that it is capable of taking on these responsibilities. This does not mean the new state should not be created until Israel gives up control of security.

Then why not talk of working with such a state to ensure the necessary security guarantees are met (as Israel has done already in the West Bank)?

What's more, rather than looking at his statements, Netenyahu's contempt for a two state solution is clear in its policies regarding the expansion of settlements in the contested territories and his political dependence on the settler bloc. So while he may have paid lip service to the notion of a two-state solution in the past, his actions and many public statements betray his opposition.

[Black Dog]

Dog - Look at the murderous facts and stop supporting murder and pretending murderers shouldn't be driven out of the human race, racist scum, as they are.!

Some might find your posts offensive and racist. I think you're boring. Go away.

[GostHacked]

Ghost you need to keep reading. His position changed. You are quoting a position he denounced.

He is a politician as well. They have been known to tell you anything you want to hear in return for your support and vote. Some of them lie too.

[jacee]

Dre and Jacee your stereotype of Zionist is dead wrong.

CITE? !

I haven't stereotyped zionists. I don't even use that word because I'm not sure what it means.

I did thank dre for sharing his parents' personal experience and reasons for leaving Israel.

In fact there are what we call Biblical or religious Zionists who use the Old Testament as reference to claim all of Judea and Somaria. They would be about one third of the settlers on the West Bank or about 125,000 people.

...

There are extremists in Israel that not only want all of Judea and Somaria but also call for the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state and its not just Muslim political parties, its ultra Orthodox Jews and the Communist party.

Would you say that the current Israeli government is strongly influenced by the extremist mentality?

Would you say that the IDF is largely influenced by the extremist mentality?

Because it doesn't really matter how many decent kind Israelis there are if they allow their government and the military to commit aggression and atrocities against Palestinians on their behalf with their support.

All Israelis will suffer the consequences of international revulsion at the acts of the Israeli government and military.

That's just reality.

.

[Black Dog]

Even earlier than that, as we learned when the CBC published false news about PM Netanyahu and had to issue a correction:

“Statehood has proved elusive for the Palestinians, in part because Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refused to endorse a two-state solution and has said established Jewish settlements must be allowed in areas like the West Bank to expand for natural growth of settler families.”

Contrary to this statement, at a prime-time address delivered at Bar-Ilan University near Tel Aviv on June 14, 2009, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu endorsed the two-state solution, thereby supporting the creation of a Palestinian state.

After HonestReporting Canada brought this matter to the attention of senior producers at CBC.ca, the following correction was promptly issued: “An earlier version of this story said Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refused to endorse a two-state solution. In fact, Netanyahu has endorsed a two-state solution but with several conditions attached.

This actually makes my point for me. The entity Netanyahu describes would not be considered an sovereign state under any definition of the term. A vassal or a colony perhaps, but not an independent state.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's good enough for Canada's First Nations and Quebec.

[Black Dog]

It's good enough for Canada's First Nations and Quebec.

Neither of which would be described as a sovereign state. I appreciate your support for my arguments, trollbot!

[bush_cheney2004]

This actually makes my point for me....yada...yada...yada.

[Big Guy]

...

The vast majority of Israelis though are not them.

Most Israelis are not religious and so their concept of Zionism is not relgiious.

...

You appear to have an exceptional insight into this issue - and I mean that as a compliment.

What is your opinion of the JDL? They make no secret that their mandate is to; ""protect Jews from anti-Semitism by whatever means necessary". Sounds to me like the end will justify the means. Would you consider this group to be ; nationalists or zealots or Zionists or terrorists or thugs or ... What percentage of the Jewish population of Israel do you think they represent?