Canadian Military Staffed by Merit Or Diversity Targets?

[Big Guy]

To-day Canada's military is made up of 15% women, visible minorities represent 4.2% and aboriginals 1.9%. The targets are currently set at 25% for women of full-time military personnel and reservists; 11.7% should be visible minorities; and 3.3% should be aboriginals.

The military is having difficulty meeting those targets.

For the research challenged a reference can be found at:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/19/military-retreating-on-diversity-targets-after-failing-to-meet-recruiting-goals-for-minorities-women/

and

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/military-missing-employment-equity-recruiting-targets-1.1255186

Or you could type in “Military Diversity targets canada” into Google

Google can be found at:

https://www.google.ca/

Should our forces continue to try reach the directed targets?

Should there be any equity and diversity targets for the composition of our military?

Should only merit and physical ability be used as a criteria for hiring for our military?

What could our government do to encourage more people to join our military?

[Topaz]

Is it any wonder why people are NOT signing up after the way the feds treat the soldiers??? We aren't fighting the wars like WW2, they are more conflicts between governments and many people are now saying no way, not joining and are getting out as soon as they can, even the upper brass aren't staying.

[Bob Macadoo]

First.....thumbs up, although I bet the snobs have reported you for flaming.

Now...diversity recruitment targets are the best flawed method to achieve an end goal. Until a better method comes along I'll stick with it.

I'll let Cybercoma provide all the research on unconcious bias theory.

[Moonlight Graham]

Looks like the DND is both sexist and racist. Affirmative action "quotas" are sickening, they're racist against Caucasians and sexist vs males.

[Remiel]

Can we really expect women to sign up proportionately for the Armed Forces as long as many of them feel it would be signing up for inescapable sexual harassment and perhaps even worse? I would almost have to say that the military has to be better at dealing with these things than general society because of the nature of what they do and the sacrifices they require of service members.

[eyeball]

If they made the army 75% women and 25% men they'd never have a problem finding enough men again.

[PIK]

Is it any wonder why people are NOT signing up after the way the feds treat the soldiers??? We aren't fighting the wars like WW2, they are more conflicts between governments and many people are now saying no way, not joining and are getting out as soon as they can, even the upper brass aren't staying.

BS.

[monty16]

Maybe first of all we should consider who our possible future enemies will be. If it's going to be hand to hand combat with China then we should just make peace with them and give up. Likewise the US. If it's going to be a war of minds with the Chinese then we should recruit only super intelligent men and women because we may have a ghost of a chance in fighting back. As would the US maybe?

More likely, China is in the process of making fighting wars a thing of the past. They know that the US pulling the nuclear trigger is all they will ever have to worry about. And that's of very minor concern as bully countries don't do nuclear war with nuclear armed opponents.

[Michael Hardner]

First.....thumbs up, although I bet the snobs have reported you for flaming.

No, this hasn't happened. This is a great start to an interesting discussion, thanks.

[Michael Hardner]

BS.

Come on, PIK, you must have more than that to say ?

[Signals.Cpl]

First.....thumbs up, although I bet the snobs have reported you for flaming.

Now...diversity recruitment targets are the best flawed method to achieve an end goal. Until a better method comes along I'll stick with it.

I'll let Cybercoma provide all the research on unconcious bias theory.

Sorry but how does this help anyone? Ultimately it keeps competent people from doing a job simply because of their sex, race, skin colour or religion If that is not wrong I don't know what is.

We will just end up recruiting from a lower quality of recruits while letting the higher quality candidates get away simply because they are the wrong religion, colour, sex etc... What if we cannot fill the quotas with suitable candidates? Do we lower the standard for specific people just so we can get the check in the box, yep we have 7% of our members who are black etc...

I believe that if you are a candidate you have to meet certain conditions to work in the military, the colour of your skin should not be one of them or we run the risk of as I said earlier having incompetent people join and advance simply because of their race or religion rather than abilities. Then we have same group of people being promoted over more competent people simply because again they are of the right religion or race...

There has to be a standard, you meet the standard all the power to you regardless of your race, sex or religion. It always infuriated me that a women would do the exact same job as me, for the exact same pay and benefits but the fitness requirements were significantly lower for a women. With the new FORCE test that was eliminated but I will wait and see how long this equality lasts before someone screams for equality but demands special treatment. Now start hiring or promote people who don't deserve a promotion over people who have earned a promotion seems sick to me, sick and extremely counterproductive and moral destroying.

Military, Police, Fire departments and Paramedics to name a few should be recruited based on merit rather than racist or sexists reasons.

Would you want to be treated by a substandard doctor who only gained his position because he fell in to a quota? I sure wouldn't, I prefer letting people gain employment and promotions based on abilities and willingness to use said abilities than something they have little say in. If someone is discriminating against a group then hammer them but when push comes to shove the best candidate for the position rather than going for a divided, incompetent military simply to be PC.

[jacee]

Looks like the DND is both sexist and racist. Affirmative action "quotas" are sickening, they're racist against Caucasians and sexist vs males.

Don't worry: Getting a diversity quota for neanderthals should cover you.

.

Edited May 22, 2014 by jacee

[Moonlight Graham]

Don't worry: Getting a diversity quota for neanderthals should cover you.

.

I'm a neanderthal because I state THE FACT that affirmative action quotes are racist and sexist? I support women in the workforce 100%, and racism (including against visible minorities) should be addressed. But using sexism and racism to fight sexism and racism is a horrible policy.

I know some white men who grew up in brutal poverty while being sexual abused, which has stunted their careers throughout adulthood. Why are there no hiring quotas anywhere for people who grew up in brutal poverty while being sexual abused?

[Big Guy]

Sorry but how does this help anyone? Ultimately it keeps competent people from doing a job simply because of their sex, race, skin colour or religion If that is not wrong I don't know what is.

...

I certainly do not disagree with you.. I find it interesting that military is expected to follow policy and protocol that government corporations to which federal corporations have to adhere.

To "adjust" physical and other standards to satisfy a political agenda in creating and maintaining a Canadian military force makes no sense to me. Any other organization which has difficulty in recruiting does an internal analysis to try to identify the problem. Our military has not done so.

We obviously have a problem with recruitment for our military. It could probably be quickly resolved with doubling the pay for soldiers.

We now have an experienced Canadian armed force. Unfortunately, it now appears to me that it is now one looking for a war to validate the cost of keeping it up to standard. But I am deviating from the topic.

I do, agree with you that there are places where politically correct gender decisions have to be made.

The Canadian military is not one of them.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Big Guy

[jacee]

I'm a neanderthal because I state THE FACT that affirmative action quotes are racist and sexist? I support women in the workforce 100%, and racism (including against visible minorities) should be addressed. But using sexism and racism to fight sexism and racism is a horrible policy.

Let me know when white males are underrepresented in the military.

I know some white men who grew up in brutal poverty while being sexual abused, which has stunted their careers throughout adulthood. Why are there no hiring quotas anywhere for people who grew up in brutal poverty while being sexual abused?

I agree that employment and other supports should be available to them. I'm not sure that hiring quotas would address those needs.

[jacee]

If someone is discriminating against a group then hammer them.

And that is the point: Women and minorities have been discriminated against and are extremely underrepresented in the military.

I repeat: Let me know when white males are underrepresented in the military.

.

[Signals.Cpl]

And that is the point: Women and minorities have been discriminated against and are extremely underrepresented in the military.

I repeat: Let me know when white males are underrepresented in the military.

.

You are right, lets fight racism with racism, sexism with sexism, while we are at it lets go and rape rapists etc...

Women are under represented in the military, but that is not because there is a great big conspiracy to prevent women and minorities from joining, its because fewer women and minorities are applying for the military or qualifying for the position they choose.

Two people apply for the military, one is a female while the other is a white male, the white male is more fit, better educated, more experience, better attitude etc. While the female is unfit, no education and no experience combined with bad attitude, if they go through the recruiting centre and the women is recruited simply because she is a women how is that fair?

What happens when the military is starved for recruits while it has plenty to choose from except they are all white? If women and minorities simply don't want to serve what do we do? Simply keep the military is 60% or 70%? Or do we lower the standard to entice more and more minorities and women to join? Give them a bonus? Early Promotion?

[eyeball]

What happens when the military is starved for recruits while it has plenty to choose from except they are all white? If women and minorities simply don't want to serve what do we do? Simply keep the military is 60% or 70%? Or do we lower the standard to entice more and more minorities and women to join? Give them a bonus? Early Promotion?

That's easy, you either stop getting into fights or you conscript recruits.

[cybercoma]

You are right, lets fight racism with racism, sexism with sexism, while we are at it lets go and rape rapists etc...

Let's also murder murderers!

Oh wait.....

[Moonlight Graham]

Two people apply for the military, one is a female while the other is a white male, the white male is more fit, better educated, more experience, better attitude etc. While the female is unfit, no education and no experience combined with bad attitude, if they go through the recruiting centre and the women is recruited simply because she is a women how is that fair?

It's not fair because it's sexism. Sexism in the military, vs both men and women, must be fought against.

[Army Guy]

To-day Canada's military is made up of 15% women, visible minorities represent 4.2% and aboriginals 1.9%. The targets are currently set at 25% for women of full-time military personnel and reservists; 11.7% should be visible minorities; and 3.3% should be aboriginals.

The military is having difficulty meeting those targets.

Should our forces continue to try reach the directed targets?

Should there be any equity and diversity targets for the composition of our military?

Should only merit and physical ability be used as a criteria for hiring for our military?

What could our government do to encourage more people to join our military?

It's not just the military but everyone is struggling to meet these lofty goals...

Should our forces continue to try reach the directed targets?

I think our forces should reflect the diversity of our nation.... just not at the cost of quality recruits ....but one also has to look at these minorities , not all of them are interested in serving in any military, or police industry, alot of them are fleeing thier homelands due to their own military or police....

Should there be any equity and diversity targets for the composition of our military?

NO, again, it comes down to quality. My drill instructor said it best, i don't care if your purple with warts on your D***, in the Army we all bleed the same color ...each soldier needs to know that the guy on the left and right can be counted on, to do his job, both phyiscaly and mentally.....

Should only merit and physical ability be used as a criteria for hiring for our military?

NO, although it is part of the whole package,you still need smarts, coordination, etc etc , but our military has a job for most people, it is the life style that drives alot of people out....it's not for everyone....

What could our government do to encourage more people to join our military?

Put more funding into it....why join the military to fly 30 year old planes, ships, or army vehs....when civilian companies offer so much more....

To "adjust" physical and other standards to satisfy a political agenda in creating and maintaining a Canadian military force makes no sense to me. Any other organization which has difficulty in recruiting does an internal analysis to try to identify the problem. Our military has not done so.

you hit the nail on the head, Canadian citizens don't wnat a rough and ready military, they want a nice looking kid to hand out teddy bears, it is a way they (politicians) can score pionts with citizens, look we have a diverse force.....regardless of the cost....that cost is standards....both phyiscal, and mental standards.....Our Military has done the studies, but they do not make up the rules....

We obviously have a problem with recruitment for our military. It could probably be quickly resolved with doubling the pay for soldiers.

No problem with recruitment, infact there is to many people in the forces now, for it's current budget....lots of recruits just waiting in the wings....doubling our pay is not the problem, infact we make good pay.....nobody is complaining about pay, except the the government, over 60 % of the OEM funding for DND is for PAY, what we need is equipment....the best money has to buy....

We now have an experienced Canadian armed force. Unfortunately, it now appears to me that it is now one looking for a war to validate the cost of keeping it up to standard. But I am deviating from the topic.

That experience and skill is fading fast....and is being soaked up by companies that value that...CF is a sinking ship and the only cure is funding, and nobody has that type of funding to get it back on her feet. we had 10 plus years of conflict and we did nearly nothing to restore our military...

[Big Guy]

...

That experience and skill is fading fast....and is being soaked up by companies that value that...CF is a sinking ship and the only cure is funding, and nobody has that type of funding to get it back on her feet. we had 10 plus years of conflict and we did nearly nothing to restore our military...

It would be interesting to find out what percentage of our seasoned vets end up with private security contractors at 3 times their soldier pay

[jacee]

Two people apply for the military, one is a female while the other is a white male, the white male is more fit, better educated, more experience, better attitude etc. While the female is unfit, no education and no experience combined with bad attitude, if they go through the recruiting centre and the women is recruited simply because she is a women how is that fair?

Link?

I don't believe that made up scenario ever happened.

[Army Guy]

It would be interesting to find out what percentage of our seasoned vets end up with private security contractors at 3 times their soldier pay

Not just Private security contractors, but every company that is looking for members that have excellent work ethic, leadership, drive to get the job done regardless of circumstance, understands the importance of the Chain of command, and alot more that the military puts in time and money to ensure it's members fit into a military structure .... civilian companies look for these qualities but don't want to pay for themselfs.

There are many companies that militaries around the world use in different cases, LNC here in Canada is a massive logistical company that hires alot of ex military for jobs around the world, along with some of the larger US companies that pay 5 to 10 times a soldiers wage for doing the same thing and in some cases working beside the military....The oil patch is another massive draw to the western army and airforce....

[Army Guy]

Link?

I don't believe that made up scenario ever happened.

I don't think you'll find a link, but it does happen when they have issues with finding their quota's, that is the very problem with a quota system. there is lots of presure from the government to improve upon their numbers. And when the training system can only handle a select number of recruits someone has to be sliced of the end numbers.

Military goes to great lengths to ensure these selected groups are harvested and trained and placed into DND ranks, lowering of standards is just one method, turning a blind eye to some standards, to ensure a sucessful graduation is another also....

Human rights and other rights groups have made it next to impossiable to ensure that DND can't look for a particular fit....getting into the forces must be avail to every citizen within reason.... what that means is if a 350 lb women comes into the recruiting office she must be afforded every oportunity to make the min standard.....they have a phyiscal training camp to assist those not in shape by that i mean those indivs that need alot of help...insiders call it fat camp...here recruits are taken out of the normal training scedule and have up to a year to make min standards, where they can then be slotted into the normal recruit training. So this soldier is getting paid by DND for more than one year, only to find out DND is not her thing....thats one postion that can not be filled until she is released....It happens alot more than you think...

Recruit training is not that hard to pass, recruit standards are incredibly low....which produces another problem, standards in the units are much different than recruit standards, not as flexiable....As an inf you need to be at a high level of fitiness or lives are indangered...these indiv that had a tough time in recruit training now don't stand a chance....