This week in Islam

[Argus]

13 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Depends how far back you go in time. Until recently, like 100 years ago or maybe 200, laws did not protect women from beatings by their husband, including whipping them to within inches of their lives.

They don't protect Muslim women NOW in most of the Muslim world.

And you know what, I'm perfectly willing to accept that our ancestors were kind of barbaric a century or two ago in many of their social views. I would probably not like most of them and would hate their policies. So why would you expect my assessment of the Muslim world to be anything but harsh? Why would any Canadian's assessment of the social values and behaviour of the people in places like Pakistan not be severely unflattering?

[blackbird]

37 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Depends how far back you go in time. Until recently, like 100 years ago or maybe 200, laws did not protect women from beatings by their husband, including whipping them to within inches of their lives.

Do you have any evidence of that claim or are you just assuming that?

[OftenWrong]

43 minutes ago, Argus said:

They don't protect Muslim women NOW in most of the Muslim world.

And you know what, I'm perfectly willing to accept that our ancestors were kind of barbaric a century or two ago in many of their social views. I would probably not like most of them and would hate their policies. So why would you expect my assessment of the Muslim world to be anything but harsh? Why would any Canadian's assessment of the social values and behaviour of the people in places like Pakistan not be severely unflattering?

I don't expect it to be. I was saying to another poster that they shouldn't be too surprised that large parts of the world are still barbaric compared to us. Do you get it?

[OftenWrong]

21 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Do you have any evidence of that claim or are you just assuming that?

Ever crack a history book and just read? If that's a stretch, google something like "wife beater laws", or "women's rights movement" or whatever.

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Ever crack a history book and just read? If that's a stretch, google something like "wife beater laws", or "women's rights movement" or whatever.

Yes, I have read history books.   There are cases of spousal abuse or domestic abuse scattered in society at large in western countries..  It is not something that is promoted as part of the judeo-christian religious systems in western society.

Edited March 11, 2017 by blackbird

[OftenWrong]

47 minutes ago, Argus said:

They don't protect Muslim women NOW in most of the Muslim world.

The muslim world needs to undergo a serious cultural revolution, especially when it comes to women's equality. But that should be their fight, their problem. If they love their wives and daughters then they should know what to do. But they haven't yet. They've got a long way to go.

When I say "it should be their fight", that doesn't mean I excuse that behaviour. If people want to come to Canada they have to leave the misogyny behind, among other things. You get some guy just came out of the jungle... some kind of training course would be a good idea.

[OftenWrong]

5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Yes, I have read history books.

Actual words, or just pictures?

[blackbird]

OftenWrong,

I just found a website that does point out domestic abuse/wife beating is a serious problem in the U.S.  I would assume it is also in Canada.  It is more common that I had thought.

[blackbird]

5 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Actual words, or just pictures?

Words.  There is an article.  It is a big problem in the U.S., probably in Canada too.  

Odd, we don't hear it mentioned much on the news or from politicians.

Edited March 11, 2017 by blackbird

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The muslim world needs to undergo a serious cultural revolution, especially when it comes to women's equality. But that should be their fight, their problem. If they love their wives and daughters then they should know what to do. But they haven't yet. They've got a long way to go.

Just quoting this because it does nicely sum up my feelings about the Muslim world.

Not against educating newcomers about the law either, in regards to some of the practices they may take for granted, especially for the women who are the primary victims of those practices.   

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Odd, we don't hear it mentioned much on the news or from politicians.

Too busy focusing on a much less prevalent problem ... Islamic terrorism.

[OftenWrong]

 

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Too busy focusing on a much less prevalent problem ... Islamic terrorism.

Good point

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Depends how far back you go in time. Until recently, like 100 years ago or maybe 200, laws did not protect women from beatings by their husband, including whipping them to within inches of their lives.

Wife beating is not legal in Canada today.  From what I can find on Google, in Islam wife beating is permitted within the bounds of what the Quran describes. 

[OftenWrong]

11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Wife beating is not legal in Canada today.  From what I can find on Google, in Islam wife beating is permitted within the bounds of what the Quran describes. 

The bible says things like that in the old testament. A fornicating woman is to be stoned to death. But I think the message of Jesus changed all that. Still, it took 2000 years for our culture to evolve away from the barbaric practices of the semites toward what we have today. The real changes happened only within the past ~ 150 years. That's not a long time. Some lingering inequality still exists, but at least no longer state-sanctioned, legalized.

Edited March 11, 2017 by OftenWrong

[blackbird]

12 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The bible says things like that in the old testament. A fornicating woman is to be stoned to death. But I think the message of Jesus is what changed all that.
Still, it took 2000 years for our culture to evolve away from the barbaric practices of the semites toward what we have today. The real changes happened within the past ~ 150 years.

I don't think women have been stoned in christian society or western society in the past 2000 years.  The Old Testament parts you are thinking of were instruction to the children of Israel at a particular time in ancient history and never were instructions on how a christian is to live.  They are there as a historical record of what happened at that time over 2000 years ago.  I don't think it is fair to say the practices of ancient Israel evolved over the last 2000 years.  When Jesus came and the church was formed, it was not Judaism.. When people believed in Jesus and began meeting in apostolic times, there was no Judaism practice.  In fact, the apostle Paul warned against practicing Judaism in the book of Galatians.  Also I don't know when the actual stoning of women ended in Israel.  That could have been 3000 years ago for all I know.

Also, it should be said Israel was taken over by the Roman Empire and they would have probably outlawed capital punishment unless their governors gave approval.  That would be more than 2000 years ago.

Edited March 11, 2017 by blackbird

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't think women have been stoned in christian society or western society in the past 2000 years.  The Old Testament parts you are thinking of were instruction to the children of Israel at a particular time in ancient history and never were instructions on how a christian is to live.  They are there as a historical record of what happened at that time over 2000 years ago.  I don't think it is fair to say the practices of ancient Israel evolved over the last 2000 years.  When Jesus came and the church was formed, it was not Judaism.. When people believed in Jesus and began meeting in apostolic times, there was no Judaism practice.  In fact, the apostle Paul warned against practicing Judaism in the book of Galatians.  Also I don't know when the actual stoning of women ended in Israel.  That could have been 3000 years ago for all I know.

Wife beating and killing was tolerated and still happening in England and France, just a few 100 years ago. The Roman Catholic church has a lot to do with preserving this cultural attitude.

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Wife beating and killing was tolerated and still happening in England and France, just a few 100 years ago. The Roman Catholic church has a lot to do with preserving this cultural attitude.

That is surprising.  I am not a fan of the RCC.  I grew up in it but left it 37 years ago when I heard the gospel.  I have studied the RCC teachings quite a bit and read several books on it in order to be more knowledgeable on the subject, but I have never come across anything on the subject of wife beating.  Most of the dogmas are very unbiblical.   There were small groups of bible-believing christians in parts of Europe before the Reformation and during the middle ages.  These people were considered heretics and hunted down.  They were destroyed by Rome.  I don't think those people would have practiced wife beating.  But it could have been a frequent practice in the Holy Roman Empire which covered all of Europe but I am not sure.  I will see what I can find out about it.

[blackbird]

It is mainly the liberal left that is allowing the takeover of western civilization.

Edited March 11, 2017 by blackbird

[?Impact]

37 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It is mainly the liberal left that is allowing the takeover of western civilization.

It is the liberal left that created western civilization, the conservative right wing were dragged kicking and screaming every step of the way

[dialamah]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-domestic-abuse-civil-offence-1.3955317

In Russia, 75% of the population says they are Orthodox Christian.   Recently they changed their laws so that hitting your wife/kid was not a criminal act - it only becomes criminal if hospitalization is required.   Now, if the victim wants to bring charges, the abuser can be fined or maybe spend a few days in jail.  Of course, if your spouse is abusing you and the most he'll get is a "fine" for it, are you going to bring charges?   

When one looks a the wife-beating laws in the Quran or Sharia, it looks like the Russian law - beat her, but don't hurt her too badly.  Even  In Muslim countries where there are laws against wife-beating, this "it's ok to beat them a little bit" permeates society, so the Muslim woman faces the same dilemma as does the Russian woman - even if she complains, the penalties are minor (if any) and she'll still have to live with him later.    

If you research the countries with the highest rates of domestic violence and other forms of female oppression, you'll notice they include "Muslim" countries, "Christian" countries and "Hindu" countries.   It seems that poverty, lack of education and a strongly religious society all contribute to the problem of female oppression; it doesn't really matter which religion holds sway in that society.   As people become more educated and begin to move away from the superstitions and myths of religion, they also seem more able to leave behind the notion that women are property to be controlled by men.

 

[blackbird]

8 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

9 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

It is the liberal left that created western civilization, the conservative right wing were dragged kicking and screaming every step of the way

Does it matter who created western civilization?  Western civilization simply evolved from previous civilizations like the Roman Empire and then the Holy Roman Empire.  You seem to have a phobia about conservatives. 

 

[dialamah]

48 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It is mainly the liberal left that is allowing the takeover of western civilization.

Where exactly is Western civilization is being taken over and by what, exactly?    

 

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 As people become more educated and begin to move away from the superstitions and myths of religion, they also seem more able to leave behind the notion that women are property to be controlled by men.

You are free to believe that, but I would point out that the teachings of Jesus in the Bible would not support wife-beating at all.  The fact the people of any religion are doing it only proves they are not following the teachings of their professed religion if it is christianity or following a religion which condones wife beating.  Either way the bible would condemn it.

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

 

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You seem to have a phobia about conservatives. 

You're the one who made the hyperbolic statement about the 'takeover' of Western civilization, because of Liberals.  

[DogOnPorch]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Where exactly is Western civilization is being taken over and by what, exactly?    

 

 

Islam with dominate.