This week in Islam

[Goddess]

Just now, dialamah said:

   I agree reform is in order but don't agree that calling people names like 'rat Muslims' is going to lead to reform.

 

 

I don't believe most people think name-calling leads to reform.  

It's nothing more than a way for small-minded people to vent frustration.  

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, Goddess said:

In the book I'm reading right now, (see my above comment to Hal) Nawaz estimates that 25% of Muslims worldwide agree with violent jihad and that we shouldn't expect much help from "conservative Muslims", since they do not agree with the violent jihad, but will fully support and fight against any gender equality, etc.

Could be his figures are more accurate than the ones I was able to source re violent extremism.   

Gender equality etc. is kind of a continuuim, imo.   Canada lags behind some European countries, the US lags behind Canada, Russia lags the US and most Middle Eastern and African countries are barely on the radar.

For me, demonstrating  tolerance, equality and acceptance through accepting immigrants and refugees from those places is a powerful method of combatting that inequality.    It is the governments who condone such through their laws that should be held responsible and guilty, not the people who want to leave.

[DogOnPorch]

 

24 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

We know the answer...will dialamah have to lie? Or simply evade?

Let's watch n' see...

Evasion.

If you picked 'evade'...come and get your prize!

[?Impact]

36 minutes ago, Argus said:

I've often asked for which of the 57 odd Muslim countries believe in equal rights for men and women, for Muslims and non-Muslims, and don't have religious violence. I get no answers.

Are we talking about countries, or people. Please do try and keep your points clear.

[dialamah]

30 minutes ago, Argus said:

I've often asked for which of the 57 odd Muslim countries believe in equal rights for men and women, for Muslims and non-Muslims, and don't have religious 

This might be a valid question if it didn't come along with the lack of acknowledgement that Christan majority countries in the region have many of the same practices and laws as do the Muslim majority countries and to benefit Christians where applicable.    Even oppressive secular govs tend to lack human rights and gender equality and squash dissent harshly.   These issues are not exclusively due to Islamic beliefs, despite the desperate attempts of some to make it seem so.  Patriarchal religions can very effectively be used to support inequality, whether in a Muslim majority country or a Christian majority.  

I would not want to be female or gay in many countries of the world, including but not limited to Islamic countries.

 

[Hal 9000]

53 minutes ago, dialamah said:

This might be a valid question if it didn't come along with the lack of acknowledgement that Christan majority countries in the region have many of the same practices and laws as do the Muslim majority countries and to benefit Christians where applicable.    Even oppressive secular govs tend to lack human rights and gender equality and squash dissent harshly.   These issues are not exclusively due to Islamic beliefs, despite the desperate attempts of some to make it seem so.  Patriarchal religions can very effectively be used to support inequality, whether in a Muslim majority country or a Christian majority.  

I would not want to be female or gay in many countries of the world, including but not limited to Islamic countries.

 

So...not all equal rights hating countries are muslim, but all muslim countries hate equal rights?

[Hal 9000]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

I don't believe most people think name-calling leads to reform.  

It's nothing more than a way for small-minded people to vent frustration.  

I think it was me that referred to them as "rats", which I've already been admonished for.

Anyway, It doesn't matter if name-calling will lead to reform or not, do you really think Islam is going to reform?  C'mon...do you?  All evidence shows is that their belief system is spreading.  Look at how the governments of Germany and Sweden (France, Belgium etc etc ) cover up for the rapes and sexual abuse.  They all preach how we should be tolerant to their belief system and teach them "how to NOT rape women".  Why when muslims come to a western country is it up to us to show them understanding and tolerance when there is no way in hell they'd do the same for westerners.  Look around and see what's happening in Europe, muslims are not reforming - we are.

[dialamah]

26 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

So...not all equal rights hating countries are muslim, but all muslim countries hate equal rights?

As of 2016 Tunisia has been rated as free by Freedom House, the only Arab country to gain that rating.   They still have considerable work to do however.

Many Muslims want freedom and equal rights; authoritarian governments rarely want to give their citizens more rights.  Islam helps governments maintain their power and control, but it is not due to Islam that these types of governments exist.

[Goddess]

Just now, Hal 9000 said:

do you really think Islam is going to reform?  C'mon...do you?  All evidence shows is that their belief system is spreading.  Look at how the governments of Germany and Sweden (France, Belgium etc etc ) cover up for the rapes and sexual abuse.  They all preach how we should be tolerant to their belief system and teach them "how to NOT rape women".  Why when muslims come to a western country is it up to us to show them understanding and tolerance when there is no way in hell they'd do the same for westerners.  Look around and see what's happening in Europe, muslims are not reforming - we are.

I HOPE it will reform the more violent and misogynist views it has......I will admit that I am doubtful it will happen.  Not in my lifetime, for sure.  The reason being - the violent and misogynistic beliefs are working for them and anyone who disagrees with them is a "racist" and an Islamophobe, why would they change their views?

[Hal 9000]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I HOPE it will reform the more violent and misogynist views it has......I will admit that I am doubtful it will happen.  Not in my lifetime, for sure.  The reason being - the violent and misogynistic beliefs are working for them and anyone who disagrees with them is a "racist" and an Islamophobe, why would they change their views?

No, it's not going to change - and why should it, as you said, It's working extremely well for them.  Fact is; it's only gonna get worse in Europe as their numbers increase.

When we have westerners and politicians walking around with signs saying "I am Muslim" and feminists are displaying pictures of a woman in a "stars and stripes" hijab as the new feminist, well, it's pretty hard to suggest that Muslims are reforming to a more liberal view.

[Goddess]

Just an interesting sidenote:  This guy who dialogues with Sam Harris in the book, Maajid Nawaz, founded this group called Quilliam:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quilliam_(think_tank)

Quote

Quilliam is a London-based think tank that focuses on counter-extremism, specifically against Islamism, which it argues represents a desire to impose any given interpretation of Islam on society. Founded as The Quilliam Foundation, it lobbies government and public institutions for more nuanced policies regarding Islam and on the need for greater democracy in the Muslim world whilst empowering moderate Muslim voices.

I think he's onto something.

[dialamah]

13 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Just an interesting sidenote:  This guy who dialogues with Sam Harris in the book, Maajid Nawaz, founded this group called Quilliam:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quilliam_(think_tank)

I think he's onto something.

I think this is the same guy who was an extremist and spent some time in an Egyptian jail.  Not sure of all the details.

I wonder what is meant by 'nuanced' policies?

 

[Goddess]

35 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I think this is the same guy who was an extremist and spent some time in an Egyptian jail.  Not sure of all the details.

I wonder what is meant by 'nuanced' policies?

 

Yes, that's the guy.

I'm reading about that in the book - what policies he wants to see impemented in Western societies to curb radicalization.  So far, I understand what he's getting at and the reasons for it. 

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

Yes, that's the guy.

I'm reading about that in the book - what policies he wants to see impemented in Western societies to curb radicalization.  So far, I understand what he's getting at and the reasons for it. 

 

Both he and Hirsi Ali are detested by many who claim to be standing-up for women's rights...Linda Sarsour and friends...for example.

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

As of 2016 Tunisia has been rated as free by Freedom House, the only Arab country to gain that rating.   They still have considerable work to do however.

Many Muslims want freedom and equal rights; authoritarian governments rarely want to give their citizens more rights.  Islam helps governments maintain their power and control, but it is not due to Islam that these types of governments exist.

 

Ah yes...comparatively a paradise: only perhaps half a dozen huge massacres including Sousse.

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes, that's the guy.

I'm reading about that in the book - what policies he wants to see impemented in Western societies to curb radicalization.  So far, I understand what he's getting at and the reasons for it. 

I'm all for curbing radicalization and I imagine what works for Islam will work for any group.  

Things may change but I think White Nationalism is a bigger threat to personal safety than Muslim extremists in Canada.   I'm not their target group but anyone of that mindset who sees me as standing up for or defending minorities or immigrants has included me in their attacks.   Not much fun having a 6' 200 lb white guy screaming insults at you cause you didn't agree that brown people should go back home.

 

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I'm all for curbing radicalization and I imagine what works for Islam will work for any group.  

Things may change but I think White Nationalism is a bigger threat to personal safety than Muslim extremists in Canada.   I'm not their target group but anyone of that mindset who sees me as standing up for or defending minorities or immigrants has included me in their attacks.   Not much fun having a 6' 200 lb white guy screaming insults at you cause you didn't agree that brown people should go back home.

 

 

Islam is a religion/cult. Not a skin colour.

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Ah yes...comparatively a paradise: only perhaps half a dozen huge massacres including Sousse.

As I clearly stated, they still have considerable work to do.  And yeah, a shitty history.  

But if you are holding their history against them in order to discount their efforts today, then I expect you'll do the same for Canada, the States, Great Britain and Christians.   Or any other group throughout history.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

As I clearly stated, they still have considerable work to do.  And yeah, a shitty history.  

But if you are holding their history against them in order to discount their efforts today, then I expect you'll do the same for Canada, the States, Great Britain and Christians.   Or any other group throughout history.

 

Oh dear...what 'group' am I not taking to task?

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Islam is a religion/cult. Not a skin colour.

I'm talking about a white guy screaming insults at me for not supporting his hatred against non-white people.  In this particular case the non-white person was from South America, and would presumably be Catholic, if he was anything.

Perhaps in your ire at my failing to join your hatefest, you've stopped being able to comprehend what I write.

 

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

I'm talking about a white guy screaming insults at me for not supporting his hatred against non-white people.  In this particular case the non-white person was from South America, and would presumably be Catholic, if he was anything.

Perhaps in your ire at my failing to join your hatefest, you've stopped being able to comprehend what I write.

 

Spaniards...Latinos...are Europeans, too. Spain is just south of France on my maps...

Re: hate fest...so which country can I look to in order to see Islam as Allah meant it to be...properly...that is??

Surly there's ONE.

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

.so which country can I look to in order to see Islam as Allah meant it to be...properly...that is??

Surly there's ONE.

Since I hold no belief in Allah or any god, I can't even identify an intent of a mythical being, never mind a country that reflects it.

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Since I hold no belief in Allah or any god, I can't even identify an intent of a mythical being, never mind a country that reflects it.

 

Sure thing...defender of the faith.

 

[DogOnPorch]

In other words: you can't find one...because there ISN'T one.

No worries...I couldn't, either...all Islamic countries suck just like the religion.

[Goddess]

One point from the book I found interesting:

Quote

Finally, some remarks on the term "moderate" Muslim.  After the Islamic State, even Al-Quaeda appears "moderate".  The term is now so relative - juxtaposed against increasingly worse atrocities - that it has become meaningless.  It doesn't tell us what values the person in question holds.  This is why I prefer using terms that denote values, such as "Islamist", "liberal" or "conservative" Muslim.