This week in Islam

[eyeball]

34 minutes ago, Argus said:

If you want to blame something other than religion you'll have to come up with a reasonable theory on why so many widely varying nations have the same sorts of violent, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-Jewish policies and behaviour.

Well, as they say, the easiest explanation is usually the correct one.

 

The reason why so many widely varying nations have the same sorts of violent, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-Jewish policies and behaviour is overt conservatism - made all the more evident by the near complete absence of progressivism. Religion is bad enough on its own but conservatives really seem to go out of their way to make it as godawful as possible.

[?Impact]

36 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The reason why so many widely varying nations have the same sorts of violent, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-Jewish policies and behaviour is overt conservatism - made all the more evident by the near complete absence of progressivism. Religion is bad enough on its own but conservatives really seem to go out of their way to make it as godawful as possible.

Well said. The only qualifier I would add that it is social conservatism specifically. There are nations with differing economic policies that still practice social conservatism.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Omni said:

I assume then you are supporting Kellie Leitch for leader of the CPC.

No. I'm not a one issue voter. Aside from her values stand there isn't much I like about her and I don't think she could get elected, not because of the values thing but because she lacks charisma and does not project much warmth. So far I'm hoping for O'Toole, but I could be convinced to go elsewhere.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

Well said. The only qualifier I would add that it is social conservatism specifically. There are nations with differing economic policies that still practice social conservatism.

Social conservatism largely originates with religion. Therefore, the more extreme the religion, the more severe the social conservatism.

 

[?Impact]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

Social conservatism largely originates with religion.

Certainly there are countries with these social conservative policies went through a period of state atheism (Soviet Union, China) have emerged today with different perspectives on both religion and social issues. In Russia the largest religions are Abrahamic, mostly Orthodox Christian but also a significant number of Islam. In China eastern religions are more significant, mostly Taoism and Buddhism. Both countries have (close) majority non-religious populations. Russia however is extremely socially conservative as it relates to LGBT community, where China has been much more progressive for the past couple of decades. While there were significant gains in womens equality under law in both countries, probably more so in China than Russia, there is still significant social conservative views about women, more so in Russia than China.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, dialamah said:

And if they believes they were sinning, would they still be Catholic?   I'm a little confused by your original statement.

Doesn't the Church always believe you are Catholic, even if you've lapsed, unless they actively excommunicate you?

They would still be Catholic for as long as they want to be.  I'm sure the church believes I'm Catholic, even though I'm an Atheist now.  I was baptised, so I guess I am.  None of my decisions/actions etc., are influenced by that though.

Edited December 14, 2016 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Blaise Pascal

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

If we admit that religion has something to do with it then what?

 

Can we stop blaming religion alone for these events ?  Do we have a compromise there in how such things are discussed?

Religion alone, no.  Certain proponents, sure.  Reason why they do it:  Their religion. 

Their conservatism is irrelevant.  It's just another way of saying their religion.

Edited December 14, 2016 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Blaise Pascal

[Omni]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

No. I'm not a one issue voter. Aside from her values stand there isn't much I like about her and I don't think she could get elected, not because of the values thing but because she lacks charisma and does not project much warmth. So far I'm hoping for O'Toole, but I could be convinced to go elsewhere.

But you do support her silly little values questionnaire thingy I see.

[dialamah]

On 11/30/2016 at 7:14 AM, betsy said:

As for the beatings of women.....

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/28/after-the-beating-moroccan-tv-airs-makeup-tips-for-hiding-domestic-violence/?utm_term=.e064dba6088e

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ifBvFE3s5w

 

This is the norm we're bringing in to Canada.

I entirely agree that this is a terrible, terrible message to send to women.  And Moroccan people agreed, to the extent that the station had to issue an apology and backtrack.  But didn't suit your agenda to mention that part, did it?  

This is the norm of what we're bringing to Canada, you said.   Let's look at that - how 'normal' is wife-beating in Morocco?   Well, the statistics tell us that 62.8% of women in Morocco have been victims of spousal abuse.  That's damn high!    Canada is much better right? Well, we are better - but not by much:  only half of Canadian women have experienced spousal violence - a difference of just 12%.  That means 50% of women in Canada need to hide bruises on any given day.   In Canada, a woman is killed by her intimate partner every week.  In Canada, almost 3500 women and 2700 kids sleep in shelters, because it's not safe at home.

Do you know where Canada really shines over Morocco?  In having laws against spousal abuse, and a much higher reporting rate because, after 50+ years of effort, we are finally beginning to make progress against the cultural habit of smacking around our women.   We have shelters, and we have a semi-effective judicial system to help these women.  You'd deny that to Moroccan women, though, because as far as you are concerned, they are so much more evil than we are and if their husbands beat them up, well I guess they just deserve it.  No way should we allow them the opportunity to escape that or show them a different way.

Such a good Christian you are, Betsy, following God's law against helping those less fortunate to the letter.   Still, I like the Christian woman I know offline much better; she actually offered her home to those evil Islamic Syrian refugees.   Even though she attends Church every week, she didn't let God's law stop her from offering help.  

Oh wait, withholding help from the less fortunate isn't one of God's rules, is it?  It's just the way you have interpreted it and want to live it.   Thank goodness not all Christians are the same as you, Betsy.

[betsy]

25 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I entirely agree that this is a terrible, terrible message to send to women.  And Moroccan people agreed, to the extent that the station had to issue an apology and backtrack.  But didn't suit your agenda to mention that part, did it?  

This is the norm of what we're bringing to Canada, you said.   Let's look at that - how 'normal' is wife-beating in Morocco?   Well, the statistics tell us that 62.8% of women in Morocco have been victims of spousal abuse.  That's damn high!    Canada is much better right? Well, we are better - but not by much:  only half of Canadian women have experienced spousal violence - a difference of just 12%.  That means 50% of women in Canada need to hide bruises on any given day.   In Canada, a woman is killed by her intimate partner every week.  In Canada, almost 3500 women and 2700 kids sleep in shelters, because it's not safe at home.

Do you know where Canada really shines over Morocco?  In having laws against spousal abuse, and a much higher reporting rate because, after 50+ years of effort, we are finally beginning to make progress against the cultural habit of smacking around our women.   We have shelters, and we have a semi-effective judicial system to help these women.  You'd deny that to Moroccan women, though, because as far as you are concerned, they are so much more evil than we are and if their husbands beat them up, well I guess they just deserve it.  No way should we allow them the opportunity to escape that or show them a different way.

Such a good Christian you are, Betsy, following God's law against helping those less fortunate to the letter.   Still, I like the Christian woman I know offline much better; she actually offered her home to those evil Islamic Syrian refugees.   Even though she attends Church every week, she didn't let God's law stop her from offering help.  

Oh wait, withholding help from the less fortunate isn't one of God's rules, is it?  It's just the way you have interpreted it and want to live it.   Thank goodness not all Christians are the same as you, Betsy.

 

It's well-documented that wife-beating is considered the norm among Muslims.   Don't tell me we don't look the other way when it comes to the treatment of Muslim women.  We tolerate and allow  a double standard when it comes to the treatment of Muslim women!

All these talks about abuse of women sound so hypocritical when we even allow Sharia Law to be practiced in some Canadian communities! 

 

Never mind trying to "shame" me as a Christian.  It doesn't wash. 

On the other hand, if you're a woman - you ought to be ashamed of yourself for trying to detract from my message!  You're a perfect example of the hypocrisy I'm talking about.

Stick to the issue.

Edited December 14, 2016 by betsy

[betsy]

21 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

If we admit that religion has something to do with it then what?

 

Can we stop blaming religion alone for these events ?  Do we have a compromise there in how such things are discussed?

 

They're Allah-Akbarring it all over the world as they blow up people!

 

If that's not religion- I wonder what else it is.

[dialamah]

16 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

On the other hand, if you're a woman - you ought to be ashamed of yourself for trying to detract from my message!  You're a perfect example of the hypocrisy I'm talking about.

Stick to the issue.

Yup.  I would like to help these women escape a country that doesn't have laws to protect them; you want to leave them there to rot.

If 50% of women in Canada are beaten, wouldn't that make it the 'norm' here too?

In what communities is Sharia law practiced?  What version of Sharia law?  Is the Sharia law allowed to take precedence over Canadian Criminal law?  Give me some links, Betsy, because every time I've run into this claim in the past, its turned out to be nothing like advertised.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

  That means 50% of women in Canada need to hide bruises on any given day.  

This I don't believe.  And here's the thing with statistics and links and things.  Even if you provided them, I still wouldn't believe it.

Edited December 14, 2016 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Blaise Pascal

[DogOnPorch]

15 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

This I don't believe.  And here's the thing with statistics and links and things.  Even if you provided them, I still wouldn't believe it.

 

It's the "Just Like Us" argument...you know...just like Canadian men are always dying in suicide attacks on Christian churches. Why pick on Islam if Canada as a country is just as vile?

[betsy]

28 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Yup.  I would like to help these women escape a country that doesn't have laws to protect them; you want to leave them there to rot.

If 50% of women in Canada are beaten, wouldn't that make it the 'norm' here too?

In what communities is Sharia law practiced?  What version of Sharia law?  Is the Sharia law allowed to take precedence over Canadian Criminal law?  Give me some links, Betsy, because every time I've run into this claim in the past, its turned out to be nothing like advertised.

Let's be realisitic, shall we?  We're not taking in only women!  We're importing even the men!

 

If 50% of women in Canada are beaten, wouldn't that make it the 'norm' here too?    It would be........we'd easily reach more than just  50% if we're taking in people who believe that wife-beating is the norm, especially so when we allow them to practice their culture here!

 

Here, read this.

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/canada-sharia-law.html

Edited December 14, 2016 by betsy

[kimmy]

48 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Well, we are better - but not by much:  only half of Canadian women have experienced spousal violence - a difference of just 12%.  That means 50% of women in Canada need to hide bruises on any given day.  

So first off it says "have experienced spousal violence", but does not claim that half of women are experiencing spousal violence on an ongoing basis.  As well, the page you've linked to says "Half of all women in Canada have experienced at least one incident of physical or sexual violence since the age of 16" but does not specify spousal violence.

As well, I strongly suspect that Canada has a broader standard as to what qualifies as spousal violence than Morocco. And I strongly suspect that Canada has much higher reportage and enforcement than Morocco. As with many statistics, this sort of thing needs qualification.  I just heard on the news that Kim City has twice as many drunk driving incidents per capita as Vancouver. Does that mean that Kim City residents are drunken scofflaws? or does it mean that Kim City police are much better at catching drunk drivers than Vancouver police, on account of we only have one street?  While crime statistics overall are on the decline, statistics for sexual violence have not mirrored the trend. Does that mean that these crimes are increasing in frequency, or does it mean that these crimes are being reported and enforced more vigorously?

I think what's profoundly disturbing is that spousal violence in Morocco is apparently so normalized that a TV station seemed to think that covering facial bruises is the kind of lifestyle advice that women would find useful.

 -k

[dialamah]

18 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

This I don't believe.  And here's the thing with statistics and links and things.  Even if you provided them, I still wouldn't believe it.

Ah yes.  The head-in-the-sand approach to reality: if I don't like it, its not true no matter what.

In my birth family, four out of four women have been physically assaulted by our intimate partner, whether husband or boyfriend.  We all found new relationships, because we could and so while we fit into the 50% stat, we're not part of the almost 100,000 current victims.  But the men who assaulted us got no more than a warning.  

So hey, you can pretend its not true because its never happened to you and you wouldn't do it, but that doesn't mean all the woman who've been slapped, punched, shoved, strangled and worse don't exist.

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, kimmy said:

 

I think what's profoundly disturbing is that spousal violence in Morocco is apparently so normalized that a TV station seemed to think that covering facial bruises is the kind of lifestyle advice that women would find useful.

 -k

Yes it is disturbing, and thats why this whole "So lets not help them" bothers me so much.   How can anyone stand by and say "Oh look at those poor women, being beat up!   But don't involve us because we might also have to deal with their partners".   

We have no hope of helping them all anyway, but the Betsy's of this world would like to stop us from helping any of them.  

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Ah yes.  The head-in-the-sand approach to reality: if I don't like it, its not true no matter what.

In my birth family, four out of four women have been physically assaulted by our intimate partner, whether husband or boyfriend.  We all found new relationships, because we could and so while we fit into the 50% stat, we're not part of the almost 100,000 current victims.  But the men who assaulted us got no more than a warning.  

So hey, you can pretend its not true because its never happened to you and you wouldn't do it, but that doesn't mean all the woman who've been slapped, punched, shoved, strangled and worse don't exist.

Shoved?  I've been shoved.

Edited December 14, 2016 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Blaise Pascal

[dialamah]

K guys, I'm off to work and busy over the next while so won't be able to respond directly.

I do feel strongly about this demonizing of Islam.  Yes, its religion that drives the most horrendous human rights abuses, always has been.  In that regard, Islam is right up there, and has taken the top spot from Christianity.

What I object to is the constant focusing on the worst of Islam and ignoring and discounting the people within Islam who are working to change that and the people who object just as strongly to those who use Islam to justify barbarity.   

The one-sided view presented here by Argus, Betsy and DoP, echoed by others, is not all of Islam or Muslims.   Promoting the belief that they're all savages who want nothing more than to kill us (and gays and apostates), beat women and rape kids will not help those who also abhor such practices, who are working to change their culture or at least leave.  Presenting only this one-sided view promotes fear and hatred.  Its the same tactic extreme Islamists use to drum up hatred and fear of Westerners, and if we really are so much better than them, we shouldn't be doing it.

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, dialamah said:

K guys, I'm off to work and busy over the next while so won't be able to respond directly.

I do feel strongly about this demonizing of Islam.  Yes, its religion that drives the most horrendous human rights abuses, always has been.  In that regard, Islam is right up there, and has taken the top spot from Christianity.

What I object to is the constant focusing on the worst of Islam and ignoring and discounting the people within Islam who are working to change that and the people who object just as strongly to those who use Islam to justify barbarity.   

The one-sided view presented here by Argus, Betsy and DoP, echoed by others, is not all of Islam or Muslims.   Promoting the belief that they're all savages who want nothing more than to kill us (and gays and apostates), beat women and rape kids will not help those who also abhor such practices, who are working to change their culture or at least leave.  Presenting only this one-sided view promotes fear and hatred.  Its the same tactic extreme Islamists use to drum up hatred and fear of Westerners, and if we really are so much better than them, we shouldn't be doing it.

 

Good news is never reported like bad, regardless of the subject.  Go through this thread.  You will find a few items where I have posted about the good.  It's just not as newsworthy as the bad.

Edited December 14, 2016 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Blaise Pascal

[Argus]

14 hours ago, Omni said:

But you do support her silly little values questionnaire thingy I see.

You think it's silly to care about bringing in tens of thousands of people every year with bigoted, misogynistic social values?

I have a feeling if we were instead bringing in tens of thousands of white baptists from the southern US you'd be horrified.

[Omni]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

You think it's silly to care about bringing in tens of thousands of people every year with bigoted, misogynistic social values?

I have a feeling if we were instead bringing in tens of thousands of white baptists from the southern US you'd be horrified.

I think Leitch's concept is as silly as Harper's "snitch line" idea was. And you are aware Canada does screen the refugees before they are allowed to come to Canada.

[The_Squid]

4 hours ago, betsy said:

...when we even allow Sharia Law to be practiced in some Canadian communities! 

where?

[betsy]

1 hour ago, The_Squid said:

where?

Scroll back up to my reposes to Dialamah.