waldo Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 this thread is intended to host a federal government/national emphasis as attached to a potential Quebec PQ victory and presumed resultant referendum... the other provincial forum, 'Quebec General Election 2014' thread has become a mismash/catchall. I'm as much bemused by the seeming lack of any real Harper Conservative governing response to some of the latest comments from the PQ leader Pauline Marois... comments timed to the forceful sovereignty "coming out" of "star candidate" Pierre Peladeau. Comments like, 'expecting to use the Canadian dollar/passport, sitting at the Bank of Canada'; like, 'no borders or tolls'; like, 'welcoming Canadian tourists to Quebec', etc.. Is this Marois/the PQ being crazy, like a fox? Clearly a big part of a Quebec populace referendum response is one measured by how the rest of Canada (ROC) responds along the way... is Marois making outrageous comments simply to engage/enrage (some) within the ROC and have that emphasized back internally to the Quebec populace? is the effective Harper Conservative 'no comment' policy the right one at this point? Would responding to Marois... at this point/stage... give her/the PQ more legitimacy than warranted? IMHO I'd like to see the governing Harper Conservatives begin to properly frame just what the consequences of separation truly mean... let the Quebec populace begin to realize the real consequences, not the ones the PQ tailor for a less than engaged/knowledgeable populace. Why so quiet Harper Conservatives? on the other hand, might the PQ just take care of themselves; i.e., the 'just crazy' part of the OP title reference? From the latest election polling, it seems there's been a somewhat almost immediate internal Quebec backlash with the provincial Liberals rising 6 points in the polls... and it seems Marois is taking some heat... most evident with her brutish "manhandling" of poor Peladeau today! Quote
Smallc Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 The no comment policy is perfect. Why even humour them? Quote
waldo Posted March 13, 2014 Author Report Posted March 13, 2014 The no comment policy is perfect. Why even humour them? much of the prevailing sentiment on the closeness of the last referendum was that the federal government failed to respond in a timely manner. Quote
The_Squid Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) I have no issue with the silence. It is probably better that he waits for an official referendum announcement before weighing in on the topic, if he does at all. It will probably be Quebec Conservative MPs that do the talking when they do speak up. Denis Lebel maybe (BQ MP from '93-'01)? haha Just kidding... he may flip sides! ...or have to answer uncomfortable questions about his time as a sovereigntist. I think Harper is so unpopular in Quebec that any defence he puts up may drive votes to the pro-sovereignty side. Kind of "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" situation. On your question of the PQ, I think they are extremely sloppy and incoherent... kind of mean... The demographics haven't turned in their favour since the last referendum, so how they could think that another referendum will be good politics I don't know. But I think this happens when one feels so passionately about something... the brain turns off and the heart leads.... They are such fervent Quebec nationalists that they just can't use some common sense and have some humility about the topic of Quebec independence. Edited March 13, 2014 by The_Squid Quote
Queenmandy85 Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Many Quebecers disliked Chretien so much that his participation in the last referendum did more damage than good. Harper is in the same situation. The best strategy is to let Quebecers decide for themselves and make the best of whatever happens. Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
Michael Hardner Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 is the effective Harper Conservative 'no comment' policy the right one at this point? Would responding to Marois... at this point/stage... give her/the PQ more legitimacy than warranted? IMHO I'd like to see the governing Harper Conservatives begin to properly frame just what the consequences of separation truly mean... let the Quebec populace begin to realize the real consequences, not the ones the PQ tailor for a less than engaged/knowledgeable populace. Why so quiet Harper Conservatives? Harper probably reads Bush_Cheney... and doesn't feed the trolls. most evident with her brutish "manhandling" of poor Peladeau today! That seems like evidence of some internal tension. When the prize is the first presidency of New France, tensions are bound to mount royally... Montreally... Not really... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 ...and it strikes me that we may finally have an issue where we can all enjoy each others' comments by the fireside with absolute minimally of sniping. I guess the PQ does give the RoC something after all. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
The_Squid Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 ...and it strikes me that we may finally have an issue where we can all enjoy each others' comments by the fireside with absolute minimally of sniping. I guess the PQ does give the RoC something after all. Sniping is bad... but it would be kind of fun to have the opposite viewpoint on this topic. I'm sure most of us don't get to hear opinions from Quebec sovereigntists first hand, and not just from media reports. Quote
Accountability Now Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 Wow....I can't believe the next words out of my mouth....I actually agree with waldo. I would like to see the truth of what will actually happen if Quebec decides to split. I have heard some comments about not all of Quebec could split (ie the native territories) and even of the areas that do split, there are some that might split from the New Quebec to stay in Canada. If the ROC via the Federal Government actually started to lay down some expectations then perhaps some of the pawns involved would back off and the idea of a referendum wouldn't be so popular. Or perhaps it would spark the fire....don't know. Quote
Queenmandy85 Posted March 13, 2014 Report Posted March 13, 2014 It's not a foregone conclusion that there will even be a referendum. First, the PQ would have to win a majority. Nothing is certain in a campaign. Then, if they do, they have to have the "winning conditions." Then, finally, they would have to win a referendum…not likely under present circumstances. Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
Big Guy Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 It is an interesting question as to what is the smallest unit that may "split" or separate from the larger unit. If a province can split from a country can a municipality then split from a province? Can the city of Montreal split from an independent Quebec? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
The_Squid Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 It is an interesting question as to what is the smallest unit that may "split" or separate from the larger unit. If a province can split from a country can a municipality then split from a province? Can the city of Montreal split from an independent Quebec? Well, we know a Province can. It would probably take the Supreme Court to help figure out the question of regions and municipalities. I'm all for separation of my region! http://cascadianow.org/cascadian-independence/ Quote
August1991 Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 Norway separated from Sweden in a referendum in 1905. Today, Norway has its own currency but it's a member of NATO. Norway is not a member of the EU. Sweden is a member the EU but not NATO. Swedes and Norwegians cross their border without problem. They share an airline! Norwegians and Swedes are Lutherans. ===== The question is whether Quebec and the ROC have the maturity/stupidity/practicality to manage such a relationship, or even whether they would want to. Quote
August1991 Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) .. and it seems Marois is taking some heat... most evident with her brutish "manhandling" of poor Peladeau today! Waldo, this clip is making the rounds in Quebec. There are several interpretations but ultimately, they amount to "solidarity" and "power - rapport de force". Link There are another three weeks to go. In Quebec, French Canada, you will find both Celine Dion and Pierre Trudeau. There's even three billionaires: Desmarais, Peladeau and Laliberte. Whadda country! Edited March 14, 2014 by August1991 Quote
TimG Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) The question is whether Quebec and the ROC have the maturity/stupidity/practicality to manage such a relationship, or even whether they would want to.The point you seem to be missing is separatists have no understanding of what the self interest of Canada would be in an such negotiations. They seem to think that Canada would quickly agree to whatever the separatists want because 'its good business' but it is not that simple. For example, Canada cannot afford to have 25% of its citizens be resident in another country (the liability for future healthcare is too high). For this reason, it would have revoke the citizenship of all Canadians who choose to reside in Quebec. This is cold hard business logic - not emotion. Yet such a position would likely create chaos in Quebec because many Quebequers would be forced to choose what citizenship they want to keep. At best you would see a mass exodus - at worst it would lead to even more strident demands that Quebec be carved up into pieces. Edited March 14, 2014 by TimG Quote
August1991 Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) The point you seem to be missing is separatists have no understanding of what the self interest of Canada would be in an such negotiations. Norway was once a colony of Sweden but after a referendum, Norway became an independent country. They get along very well now even if they don't share the same currency. Edited March 14, 2014 by August1991 Quote
TimG Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Norway was once a colony of Sweden but after a referendum, Norway became an independent country. Now, they get along very well.So? I am sure if Quebec agrees to terms that Canada thinks are fair that two countries would get a long very well. But that is not likely to happen given the huge gap between the claims of separatists and the pragmatic interests of Canada in a post referendum scenario. The citizenship issue is a big issue. Partition will be another. If Quebequers in Montreal decided to accept the result the Canada would not likely push it - but if there is a strong demand from parts of Quebec to stay with Canada, Canada cannot really ignore them. Edited March 14, 2014 by TimG Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 In Quebec, French Canada, you will find both Celine Dion and Pierre Trudeau. ? One is visiting from her home in Vegas, and the other is in a box underground. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Army Guy Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 I think Waldo has hit the nail right on the head, we need our federal government to lay out what it is willing to give up to Quebec before the vote....for serveral reasons, to let Quebecors know exactly what they are getting into. I think most of them think this is going to be cast a vote and things will continue as per normal..... I think the ROC are sick and tired of Quebec holding us hostage....it's time for the Hostages to speak... There has to be a thousand papers and documentaries out there discussing the topic,one side sees doom and gloom for both sides the other the PQ thinks it is all going to be roses..... the PQ thinks they will get everything they want, that includes there present borders, meaning that the Atlantic provinces will be cut off from everything..they want to use our dollar plus have a seat on the bank of Canada to ensure there interwests are looked after, they want NLFD electrical power,the list goes on and on....what needs to be announced is what we are will to give up and what comprosmises Quebec is going to have to make. So the voters in Quebec are playing on a level palying field before casting their votes only to find out later that is not the case.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
TimG Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) we need our federal government to lay out what it is willing to give up to Quebec before the vote....for serveral reasons, to let Quebecors know exactly what they are getting into.True. But there is no referendum scheduled at this time and even if the PQ wins they may not even try to hold one. The worst thing federal politicians could do is get involved at this time because it gives the PQ a villain to fight with. Pundits and commentators are getting the message out there and that is good enough for now. Edited March 14, 2014 by TimG Quote
PIK Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) I think the libs will make a comeback and either win a minority or jold the PQ to another minority. As to do with harper I would also agree with him just laying out what really will happen if quebec separates. Just lay it out what a disaster it would be for both, with quebec getting the worse of it. And if they voted today to leave, would any us us be alive to see it actually happen? Edited March 14, 2014 by PIK Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
waldo Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Posted March 14, 2014 on the other hand, might the PQ just take care of themselves; i.e., the 'just crazy' part of the OP title reference? From the latest election polling, it seems there's been a somewhat almost immediate internal Quebec backlash with the provincial Liberals rising 6 points in the polls... and it seems Marois is taking some heat... most evident with her brutish "manhandling" of poor Peladeau today! Waldo, this clip is making the rounds in Quebec. There are several interpretations but ultimately, they amount to "solidarity" and "power - rapport de force". but it is that very relationship that makes no sense. The grand coming out of Peladeau is touted as giving the PQ "instant fiscal credibility"! But can anyone truly imagine any real commonality between the PQ policy/platform and the small 'c' Peladeau (particularly with the baggage of his more prolific Quebec bashing SunNews media conglomerate in tow)? Are we to believe that Peladeau didn't sign off on the Quebec bashing... that it was just business? Is Peladeau for real? Is this new, openly separatist, clenched fist Peladeau, calling out for a new country that his children will be proud of, for real? Or is this just a new outlet for a bored billionaire to toy with? and what of that other relationship, the one describing Harper and Peladeau as "close friends"? Is Peladeau really just Harper's undercover 'agent provocateur', working to undercut "the enemy" from within? The campaign is short... just weeks left! Will the current muted Harper Conservatives eventually raise the required timely voice against separation... perhaps through the contents of another conveniently placed Maxime Bernier briefcase? Surely Harper Conservatives can't remain quiet... can't remain on the sidelines... for the duration of the campaign! Quote
PIK Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 IMO Peladeau is just a rich white guy that no matter how bad it gets in a separate quebec he will still live like a king and end up be called President Peladeau of the country of quebec. This is all about him or waldo nailed it as a sercret agent. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
g_bambino Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 Norway was once a colony of Sweden... Not, it was not. It was an almost totally independent country in a form of personal union with Sweden. In comparison to Quebec, it had many more of its own powers; only Norwegian foreign relations were conducted by the king in his Swedish council. Quote
Wilber Posted March 14, 2014 Report Posted March 14, 2014 I agree, the feds should stay out of all provincial elections, not just Quebec's. A referendum is another matter entirely. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
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