Will Stephen Harper resign over the Senate scandal?

[cybercoma]

Nobody has defended Duffy, Wallin, and Brazeau. It's surprising that even PIK is ignoring Mac Harb in this too.

[scribblet]

Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter whether or not the PM is as innocent of the proceedings. Those who hate Harper will believe what they wish to and nothing will change that. People seem to believe Duffy but a few weeks ago he was a common thief and scumbag. Not to mention that Duffy hasn’t named the PM at all.

If we look more objectively at the situation and not through prism of hate, it is still an overblown heap of rhetoric and hyperbole. As Wright said: “I did not advise the Prime Minister of the means by which Sen. Duffy's expenses were repaid, either before or after the fact." http://tinyurl.com/mvhczn9

Still little mention or any of Mac Harb, Kenney and ex Liberal MP Joe Fontana now having to stand trial on criminal charges from the time he was an MP. Also wait for the auditor's report, there maybe more.

Meanwhile, this is likely one of the most important pieces of economic legislation in years, yet where does the CBC put it – on a sub page http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/summary-of-canada-eu-free-trade-deal-tabled-1.2286695

have fun...

Edited October 30, 2013 by scribblet

[bleeding heart]

Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter whether or not the PM is as innocent of the proceedings. Those who hate Harper will believe what they wish to and nothing will change that. People seem to believe Duffy but a few weeks ago he was a common thief and scumbag.

And Conservatives seemed to believe a few weeks ago that Nigel Wright was a man of honour and integrity...because Harper said so. Now that Harper seems to be changing his tune...he will be blindly supported in his different opinion. And you know this is true.

And the partisanship is not the biggest issue here...hell, Harper's supporters are not exactly famous for their objective lack of partisanship, now, are they?

It doesn't matter, scribblet. Hopefully the truth will come out, and then we'll all know. Why you care that people who hate Harper will, predictably, continue to hate him no matter what...you haven't explained.

[scribblet]

.......

It doesn't matter, scribblet. Hopefully the truth will come out, and then we'll all know. Why you care that people who hate Harper will, predictably, continue to hate him no matter what...you haven't explained.

Why does it matter why I care, why do you care about the subject. Liberal/NDP supporters aren't exactly famous for their objective lack of partisanship, now, are they, it cuts both ways.

I too hope it all comes out eventually, but I doubt no matter how it plays it out, it will satisfy the opposition.

Edited to show quote

Edited October 30, 2013 by scribblet

[Shady]

I'm sure he won't resign. But I wonder how many scandals he needs to have on his plate before his supporters sit up and take notice. How about "contempt of parliament"? First and only PM and he could be headed there again depending on how the speaker rules on a point of order that was brought the first day of the current session.

I'm still waiting for an actual scandal.

[carepov]

2015 is a long way away.

IMO, if the unemployment rate remains low, and especially lower than the US rate, I predict that the CPC, led by Harper, will win another majority. (Much to my chagrin.)

1. As seen in the latest federal and provincial election, in relatively god economic times, Canadians do not want change - they like the status quo.

2. Harper and his entourage have lied and deceived Canadians. "Big deal". This is standard operating procedures since at least 500 years as per Niccolò Machiavelli.

3. On this scandal, Harper and the PMO are guilty of crisis mismanagement. What about all the other crisis’ he managed so well and/or prevented? His "save percentage" is still probably over 90%.

[waldo]

Not to mention that Duffy hasn’t named the PM at all.

have fun...

stunning accusations from Duffy! Accusations that include not only Harper's Chief of Staff Wright and Harper's PMO... but Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper himself... Harper, who Duffy directly accused of overseeing a “scheme” to pay back Duffy’s housing claims.

So I was back home in P.E.I., after the prime minister had decided we were going to do this nefarious scheme, and Nigel was working the phones, coaxing me to go along with this terrible plan. He even said he would pay the $90,000. All I had to do was to go along and do as I was told.

[Keepitsimple]

Harper has done his best to protect Nigel's reputation but in the face of all the personal accusations being thrown at him, he has been forced to stop being a nice guy and put the blame more forcefully where it belongs. Too bad for Nigel - who probably tried to do what he thought was right....but it spun out of control - badly.

I'm waiting for the RCMP to clear Nigel Wright of any criminal wrongdoing so that he can sit down with Peter Mansbridge and tell all Canadians the complete story. Mansbridge is one of the very few at CBC who have any integrity left.

Assuming that Mr. Wright backs up Harper's story that up until the story broke, he made it his personal mission to keep Harper in the dark - Harper can then make some moves to "clean up" the PMO and that would be the end of his crucifiction. Ironically - especially with some favourable Supreme Court rulings - he can then go on the complete offensive to reform or eliminate the Senate - with the feverish backing of a large majority of Canadians.

In the end, this whole saga could expose the cruel vindictiveness of the media (especially the CBC) and the opposition parties and give Harper an incredible boost heading into an election. So - all the Harper-haters - be careful what you wish for.

It all hinges on Nigel Wright's personal story. Fun times.

[Jimmy Wilson]

Harper has done his best to protect Nigel's reputation but in the face of all the personal accusations being thrown at him, he has been forced to stop being a nice guy and put the blame more forcefully where it belongs. Too bad for Nigel - who probably tried to do what he thought was right....but it spun out of control - badly.

I'm waiting for the RCMP to clear Nigel Wright of any criminal wrongdoing so that he can sit down with Peter Mansbridge and tell all Canadians the complete story. Mansbridge is one of the very few at CBC who have any integrity left.

Assuming that Mr. Wright backs up Harper's story that up until the story broke, he made it his personal mission to keep Harper in the dark - Harper can then make some moves to "clean up" the PMO and that would be the end of his crucifiction. Ironically - especially with some favourable Supreme Court rulings - he can then go on the complete offensive to reform or eliminate the Senate - with the feverish backing of a large majority of Canadians.

In the end, this whole saga could expose the cruel vindictiveness of the media (especially the CBC) and the opposition parties and give Harper an incredible boost heading into an election. So - all the Harper-haters - be careful what you wish for.

It all hinges on Nigel Wright's personal story. Fun times.

Erm...It was Bob Fife at CTV that broke the story and continues to break new items...

Do you want to shut down all media that isn't friendly to The Harper Government ?

I do agree that it is Mr. Wright who now is the lynch pin to the whole affair...

[jacee]

To my ear, Harper's increasingly shrill tone is evidence that he fears losing his base and more particularly his caucus:

Agreed. He's scrambling ... on the run ... desperation in his voice now.

Harper/PMO has tried to bully, bribe, threaten, punish Duffy for displaying PMO/CPC dirty deeds publicly. None of it shut Duffy's mouth for long. Harper doesn't have any other tricks, no finesse, no diplomacy, and certainly no ability to acknowledge his own errors. He just gets increasingly shrill, demanding, accusatory, blamingblamingblaming.

Harper could have 'finessed' Duffy from the get-go. He could have said "residency for Senate appointment isn't as stringent as 'principal residence' for housing expenses, but perhaps we weren't as clear as we should have been about that. In fact, the current rules aren't that clear either, and we have to acknowledge now that the taxpayers won't accept paying expenses on the house in Ottawa that you've had for years. So ... we'll try to make it as painless as possible and deduct a bit from your pay to pay back the expenses. You're very valuable to the Party as a fundraising Senator, and I'll propose to the Party that they bump up your honorarium for fundraisers to make up the difference."

But Harper's confrontational, accusatory, petulant, demanding, stuck on himself and his power and throwing his weight around, and now locked into a public battle with Duffy-who-has-no-qualms-about-doing-battle-via-the-media.

Why didn't Harper anticipate that Duffy would go public?

Bad judgement.

Why didn't Harper realize that if he booted Duffy from CPC caucus, he lost his ability to control/silence Duffy?

Bad judgement. Poor damage control.

Now he thinks he can silence Duffy by booting him from the Senate?

... not! (Wait for Duffy's book skewering Harper and the CPC!)

Harper created the mess ... with his arrogant incompetence in dealing with a sticky situation. The hammer isn't always the appropriate place to begin. He has created formidable opponents in Duffy and Wallin, when he coulda/shoulda cemented them to the CPC with a bit of openness, shouldering some blame himself, and finessing a publicly acceptable solution.

Harper's 'base', like Rob Ford's, contains a substantial element of 'stick-it-to-them'.

Duffy's much more capable of appealing to that element than Harper. The only remaining question is ... which party will Duffy and Wallin be schilling for in the future?

Because Harper has made it certain that they will continue to use their still considerable weight to oppose him, try to destroy him.

Harper created that problem for himself, and his incompetence-through-arrogance-and-temper won't escape notice of the CPC.

[GostHacked]

Many posters on this forum hate Stephen Harper - including apparently you Jimmy Wilson. But Jimmy, you have a point. Stephen Harper apparently may have played too dirty to clean up government.

But even you had pointed out that this is not looking good for Harper. It's not hate. It's trying to hold these 'elected' officials accountable. And when the populous tries to hold them accountable, the HDS line comes out. His actions have been louder than his words.

[waldo]

... very few at CBC who have any integrity left.

In the end, this whole saga could expose the cruel vindictiveness of the media (especially the CBC)

a 2-fer... the "crazed media" and "the evil" CBC! As for the CBC, I do believe I'm reading just as much coverage within the NP, Star and G&M... perhaps the NP is giving the Harper scandal the most coverage.

[GostHacked]

I just hope people see the irony (I guess) that these people could be in real trouble over essentially petty cash. The government wastes millions, and they are on each other like dogs for a couple hundred thousand dollars?

What is really going on with these people?

[waldo]

Assuming that Mr. Wright backs up Harper's story that up until the story broke, he made it his personal mission to keep Harper in the dark - Harper can then make some moves to "clean up" the PMO and that would be the end of his crucifiction. Ironically - especially with some favourable Supreme Court rulings - he can then go on the complete offensive to reform or eliminate the Senate - with the feverish backing of a large majority of Canadians.

whaaa! "The Harper crucifixion"! Oh my, Simple... oh my!

but yes, that is the other angle being played out now. Certainly, the master strategist can't be seen to be so stumbling & bumbling... why, the latest talking point has it that all along, this has been planned out by Harper and the short-pants PMO kids to position for Senate Reform! Damn, that Harper is good!

[Boges]

I just hope people see the irony (I guess) that these people could be in real trouble over essentially petty cash. The government wastes millions, and they are on each other like dogs for a couple hundred thousand dollars?What is really going on with these people?

That is the ultimate irony the Canadian government probably goes through the amount of money we're talking about in a matter of minutes.

The Ontario Government has 3 separate scandals where billions was wasted and largely the response is "meh".

[GostHacked]

That is the ultimate irony the Canadian government probably goes through the amount of money we're talking about in a matter of minutes.

The Ontario Government has 3 separate scandals where billions was wasted and largely the response is "meh".

And as pointed out, most people can relate to a couple hundred thousand. The millions/billions they waste, we really have no clue of and no concept of. But we do know collectively it is taxpayer money. We trust them to do the right thing with the money. And then we see the PMOs office paying for lawyers fees and claim they knew about the money, and then claim Duffy swindled them. All of this is bull. Someone pissed off someone else and now they are getting outed. I agree they should be outed and removed from parliament and from the payroll. I would also suspend the PMOs office while investigation is underway.

[Argus]

I have to say I never really cared much about this so-called 'scandal'. It's small-time fudging of expense accounts by grubby little people. It reflects badly on Harper in my eyes only that it continues a habit we've seen of him appointing incompetents and weasels. Whoever oversees and recommends such appointments ought to be drawn and quartered.

But I'm not really sure what the feeding frenzy is all about here. The allegation is that Harper wanted to make this go away, so told Duffy to pay back the damn money. When Duffy wouldn't, either Harper arranged or acquiesed in getting the money to him so he'd pay it back and this would go away. Personally, I doubt he had anything personally to do with it. Why? Because I trust his word? Hell, no. He's a politician. I don't trust anything they say. But he's never been known to be dumb. And here he's not only been saying he knew nothing, but is now saying he fired Wright over it. If Wright resigned to take a bullet for his boss it's not too smart to pay him back this way. The guy might change his mind, after all. So I actually do doubt Harper is that dumb.

So really, all this is about is a political party trying to make some bad news go away. Big deal. I could hardly care less. They didn't use government money for it. They didn't, as one apt comparison, spend 1.2 BILLION dollars of public money to make bad publicity about gas plants go away as the Ontario Liberals did last election.

And btw, I bet most of those yelling about this will happily support the Ontario Liberals next election.

As for Duffy, I hope he enjoys a long stay in prison.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Argus

[GostHacked]

I have to say I never really cared much about this so-called 'scandal'. It's small-time fudging of expense accounts by grubby little people.

If they do this for expenses, where else are they stealing public funds?

But I'm not really sure what the feeding frenzy is all about here. The allegation is that Harper wanted to make this go away, so told Duffy to pay back the damn money.

Meaning he knew about it. But got the party to pay for his judicial fees.

So really, all this is about is a political party trying to make some bad news go away. Big deal. I could hardly care less.

And this attitude is exactly the response they want. They want you to not give a damn. And if you don't care about this small amount of cash, then you won't mind if they take a little more of it each time.

They didn't use government money for it. They didn't, as one apt comparison, spend 1.2 BILLION dollars of public money to make bad publicity about gas plants go away as the Ontario Liberals did last election.

The lawyer fees were paid for by the Con party. Since that money can come by donations, it may not be all taxpayer money. Expenses however are paid for by government (aka taxpayer money). I think that is how it works.

[bleeding heart]

I too hope it all comes out eventually, but I doubt no matter how it plays it out, it will satisfy the opposition.

Oppositional politics (ie democracy) are, well, oppositional. Do you suppose that this has all suddenly been invented by the official Opposition to the Conservatives?

That in the old days, the Opposition Parties would say, "Hey, let's give the Government credit, stop bugging them, and don't worry about future elections"?

[BubberMiley]

Why does it matter why I care, why do you care about the subject.

I'm not sure what this means. It would be nice if this forum had coherent debates that were understandable, unplagiarized, and didn't resort to accusations of hatred for lack of a reasoned rebuttal.

[Topaz]

As far as the group of people that supposedly knew about it and didn't tell Harper....didn't they realize they would probably lose their jobs over this, knowing what Harper views are?? Didn't Wright know that the PMO doesn't control the senate but Wright did or tried too? Would any of you were making 180,000 +, would you risk your job , knowing it was wrong??

[PIK]

Nobody has defended Duffy, Wallin, and Brazeau. It's surprising that even PIK is ignoring Mac Harb in this too.

Harb's day is coming, and it will be a lot worse. but at least he resigned. I guess that is why the libs have been fairly quiet on this. And the people are getting tired of the senate and tom's constant whinning. Harper will come out of this OK, people realize the difference between this crap and outright stealing the former liberals and provincial liberal governments have done.

Edited October 30, 2013 by PIK

[PIK]

As far as the group of people that supposedly knew about it and didn't tell Harper....didn't they realize they would probably lose their jobs over this, knowing what Harper views are?? Didn't Wright know that the PMO doesn't control the senate but Wright did or tried too? Would any of you were making 180,000 +, would you risk your job , knowing it was wrong??

It is a tough thankless job. Has anyone seen the gatekeepers show with all the living american chiefs of staff. Very interesting show.

[PIK]

The people who HateHarper™ would have burned him on a cross ages ago. That's not the question now.

The question is what ordinary Tory voters, particularly those in the West, think of this scandal. (More particularly, it is what Tory MPs in general think of this scandal.) And for such questions, I doubt people who HateHarper™ have much insight to offer.

My reading is that this scandal is grave. To many Tory voters, Harper has become another Liberal politician. In fact, he's worse. With a Liberal, you know what you're getting.

I suspect Harper's shrillness is due to him trying to play a piano when all the notes are in the wrong places. He can't play the base anymore. People aren't listening.

At this point, the only Tory voters supporting Harper are those who live in cities or in the East, among Leftists, Liberals and the NDP. They support Harper simply because, for them, the alternative is far worse.

----

As I always say, Canada's federal politics are regional, not ideological.

Do you actually think his base especially in the west will leave him and park their vote with tom or justin?? What are you smoking. My god man it is ok to dream but this is plain silly. And to say he is no better then a liberal, do the math buddy.

Edited October 30, 2013 by PIK

[waldo]

Do you actually think his base especially in the west will leave him and park their vote with tom or justin??

do you actually think it was the Conservative base that provided the last election result?