Army Guy Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 I've spent 33 years serving this great country, and have developed a great loyality to it, to it's people and its history...Over a dinner with serveral guest we had this very conversation, an i must admit initially i was the same as everyone posting was not very accepting of the idea.....I was lucky enough to have some of my US born and raised cousins at the table from Maine...We discussed both topics of merging totally and becoming one country, or just becoming one union like the EU. until near the end of the conversation i was asked to define "what makes us Canadian" and "what do you fear lossing or gaining". I was caught with my pants down, one would think after 33 years of service i would be able to list many just Canadian attributes, but what i thought we strictly Canadian were also shared by our neibours down south. To which we share more in common than other nations that we pride ourselfs in having cultural ties with for example the UK. And those things that are Canadian we won't lose them, i'm sure the US won't be passing any laws to strickly abolish poutine for example or any of our slang we use such as double double and i'm sure our past history will not change as it is recorded ... What about our health care, Ya our health care is a good system, while not perfect it's better than the US model. but change is in the wind down there as well....Like some have mentioned here that perhaps the Canadians will have an impact on future US direction such as health care. Yes i agree it would be massive undertaking and would take years of work by everyone involved, but really is any of it insurmountable that we simply say it's to hard , not worth it....Both countries were not built with that attitude, We have pretty much laided out every problem , dislike or like there is for this iisue, but is there any that can not be changed or overcome.... I myself am warming up to the idea, and have not crossed it off as impossable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 the US would not be part of anything they would want it all, especially the natural resources and the water, which will probably be worth more than oil, if the oil sand continue. Under this government we have more changes to harmonize with the US than any time before. Yes, it takes time and they are working on it but I for one, am happy being a Canadian, were I don't have to worry if someone from the Middle-East is going to kill me. The US has too much debt, too much baggage and too many enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 It's not going to happen. As similar as the two countries are, there are still too many things that separate us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 ....The US has too much debt, too much baggage and too many enemies. Sounds like the U.S. also has too many enemies in Canada. One of them tried to blow up LAX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 It's not going to happen. As similar as the two countries are, there are still too many things that separate us. Never say never, mergers have already happened ,East Germany with west,NFLD with the rest of Canada,so there are examples out there, and it can be done. I don't see anything that could not be over come. I personally think the good out wieghs the bad in the long run. the US would not be part of anything they would want it all, especially the natural resources and the water, which will probably be worth more than oil, if the oil sand continue. Under this government we have more changes to harmonize with the US than any time before. Yes, it takes time and they are working on it but I for one, am happy being a Canadian, were I don't have to worry if someone from the Middle-East is going to kill me. The US has too much debt, too much baggage and too many enemies. You don't think there would be give and take for both sides. Your looking at loosing our natural resources, and yet we are selling or leasing those same resources to whom right now....Nobody says you have to stop being Canadian, shit the US is split by many sub cultures the North and the South, take a look at Texas or californa, so why not Canadian. what is it that your afraid of loosing ? As for someone from the middle east trying to kill you, your chances of that happening are as about as great as getting hit by lightning.....To Much US debt, today the debt figures are high, but do you really think that someone is not going to take action on that...Canada has it's share of debt to. To much baggage and to many enemies that is what happens when you carry the biggest stick in the house, you'll get over it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Never say never, mergers have already happened ,East Germany with west,NFLD with the rest of Canada,so there are examples out there, and it can be done. I don't see anything that could not be over come. I personally think the good out wieghs the bad in the long run. I don't think it's completely impossible either, eventually. But what are the good aspects that would outweigh the bad? Personally, I don't see anything about living in the US that would be fundamentally bad...but I can't quite see how it would be any great improvement, either. So what, in your opinion, would be the improvements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 But what are the good aspects that would outweigh the bad? Personally, I don't see anything about living in the US that would be fundamentally bad...but I can't quite see how it would be any great improvement, either. So what, in your opinion, would be the improvements? I'll jump in here: perhaps lowering costs by sharing services. This has already started to happen with perimeter security, and we've already been sharing other services (for example, power) for years. Perhaps instead of outright merger, we'll see aspects of our countries merging such as security or even healthcare. If it made sense for Ontario to charge US states to accept patient sign-ups, then we might start to see a merger of services. The thing to keep in mind when considering these things is that it was only a few centuries ago when borders were actually quite fuzzy. There was no way for a central authority (ie royalty) to control the culture of its frontier so you would have language customs and the like as more of a continuum from country to country. Printing helped to standardize language, and created a central source of official information... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Cheaper consumer goods for one such as food,fuel,construction materials, automotive the list goes on Cheaper services such as cell phone, home phone,internet etc, less personal taxes, things that hit us in our wallets, for the most part is cheaper. meaning thousand of dollars saved in each household... For the majority of Canadians we live fairly close to the US border, freedom of movement would be opened up. no borders , no customs, trade would move as it does now within Canada...which would bring down the cost of consumer goods. not to mention bring travel costs down for tourism more savings. Some have said the US is after our resources, like i've said it will be some give and take, but the US has the funding to properly extract them, creating JOBS, thousands of them. Canada's military complex is to small, with this new territory to protect, the US would expand upon our existing military bases, once again creating more Jobs, creating more industry to support these new adventures "more jobs". I think this aspect alone would create more jobs than Canada could fill. How many people does Canada lose to the US job market a year, because they offer more pay or more incentives, this would or should level out the playing field alittle. keeping doctors etc inhouse. I'm not a money expert but with our two nations join how could that not strenghting both dollars value... with the EU currency lossing value NA dollar would soon be the top dog, i mean most of the world trades in US dollars how could that not boast our economy to positive numbers. Bottom line is jobs are going to be created, maybe not as postive as i'd hope but jobs none the less, the way i see it is more canadians will flee south than americans will flee north....jobs mean dollars, dollars mean growth...how could that be bad.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Sure, I understand the financial argument. But, first of all, I've never before talked to self-described Canadian patriots who think money is the only issue, or that it trumps everything else. So I find that mildly surprising. Second, such a mega-merger, if it were all about the almighty dollar and everything else be damned, would need financial guarantees to go with it....or else it'd be a pointless exercise. And I don't see how any absolute guarantee would be truly possible. If the powers-that-be are going to say: "your country is effectively over," it's going to be hard sell without some hardcore promises...to the point where there has to be some sort of prescription, some remedy, if the promises fall flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Some have said the US is after our resources, like i've said it will be some give and take, but the US has the funding to properly extract them, creating JOBS, thousands of them. Well, here's the thing. We allow foreign ownership, and they own "our" resources now. Foreign capital can come in and make something out of nothing. Furthermore, it makes no sense to have either nation govern the environment of common areas such as the Great Lakes. As it is today, the flag waving option gives companies the option to shop on both sides of the border but not people. So saying "the US wants ... " this or that isn't exactly accurate. What do the PEOPLE of Canada, the US and the world want ? I think we want the American dream, except we want to have it wherever we live. As I see it, national boundries today are more an idea that keeps people in place but not companies and their money. And not monied people either - they seem to be able to live wherever they want, and often do so to avoid taxes or regulations, such as Rupert Murdoch who became American in 1985 so that he could legally acquire US media assets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 ...As I see it, national boundries today are more an idea that keeps people in place but not companies and their money. And not monied people either - they seem to be able to live wherever they want, and often do so to avoid taxes or regulations, such as Rupert Murdoch who became American in 1985 so that he could legally acquire US media assets. Another reason why there will be no such "merger"....the time for such things has passed. Capital and labour have gone global, moving freely to where the action and advantages are located. Britain started to abandon its Canadian colonies for short term geo-political gains long ago, regardless of resource riches (turns out that beaver hats went out of style anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Sure, I understand the financial argument. But, first of all, I've never before talked to self-described Canadian patriots who think money is the only issue, or that it trumps everything else. So I find that mildly surprising. Second, such a mega-merger, if it were all about the almighty dollar and everything else be damned, would need financial guarantees to go with it....or else it'd be a pointless exercise. And I don't see how any absolute guarantee would be truly possible. If the powers-that-be are going to say: "your country is effectively over," it's going to be hard sell without some hardcore promises...to the point where there has to be some sort of prescription, some remedy, if the promises fall flat. The average Canadian is all about the financial aspect, in my opinon it is what drives Canadians for the most part, and while it is not the only issue nor does it trump all the other issues, hard to explain in a couple of paras so that is what i concentrated on it. As for the self discribed patriot, at the end of the day regardless of what happens i will be Canadian, my history will be Canadian, my heritage will be Canadian,nothing will ever change that,just like nothing has changed for the orginal immigrants that arrived here on day one. and over time we will all learn to be patriots of another flag and country. That is the problem is it not,like you said how could anyone guarantee anything,like when the Germanies merged, the bean counters had predicted massive debt problems due to the east conditions,Gemans squirled away tonnes of gold for this, and yet it was not as bad as they had predicted. in fact now Germany is one of the leading nations within the EU. I'm not trying to sell it, as i'm still warming up to the idea myself, but i can't see any problem that can not be overcome. I aslo don't see all the minor problems qouted on other post becoming a major issue, such as crime, guns , terrorists. what i can envision is one large and one meduim industrial nations becoming a power house. I also see our standard of living improving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 As for the self discribed patriot, at the end of the day regardless of what happens i will be Canadian, my history will be Canadian, my heritage will be Canadian,nothing will ever change that,just like nothing has changed for the orginal immigrants that arrived here on day one. and over time we will all learn to be patriots of another flag and country. I always suspected that most self-described "patriots" had a rather...promiscuous view of to whom they would doff their caps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 The U.S. has already "merged" with Canada.....we call it..... "Alaska". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 Never say never, mergers have already happened ,East Germany with west,NFLD with the rest of Canada,so there are examples out there, and it can be done. I don't see anything that could not be over come. I personally think the good out wieghs the bad in the long run. . Language issues would be a problem. Quebec vs. anywhere (no thanks we don't need that problem). Albertanese vs. Montanian. BC's v. Washington's and Idaho's language. People from North Dakota and Saskatchewan can't understand each other. The list goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 What do the PEOPLE of Canada, the US and the world want ? Speaking for myself, I'd like a whole lot less government on my back. What government there is following that should be localized to the greatest extent possible, that way it'll be closer in case I need to get on it's back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 I always suspected that most self-described "patriots" had a rather...promiscuous view of to whom they would doff their caps. I think you have the wrong impression of Patriots, and what they would be willing to doff their caps to. the difference between the US and Canada is mininmal, we share most of the same values, morals, well once it is all laid out their is not a whole lot of difference between the two people. What were you expecting, that our armed forces would rally behind our flag and fight until the last man. Rather than become part of something that we are already 99 % of anyways...This might be the case if the US would use force to take what they want. But it is not. It is a issue brought up in a forum, a what if issue. a Playful exericise so to speak. I've served this nation,in combat risking my life and those of my troops many times over , not for money, I think my bank account will prove that, but for the chance to serve this nation, and if this nation decides to merge then i'm all for it. not because of the money but rather for what is best for the nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 I think you have the wrong impression of Patriots, and what they would be willing to doff their caps to. the difference between the US and Canada is mininmal, we share most of the same values, morals, well once it is all laid out their is not a whole lot of difference between the two people. What were you expecting, that our armed forces would rally behind our flag and fight until the last man. Rather than become part of something that we are already 99 % of anyways...This might be the case if the US would use force to take what they want. But it is not. It is a issue brought up in a forum, a what if issue. a Playful exericise so to speak. I've served this nation,in combat risking my life and those of my troops many times over , not for money, I think my bank account will prove that, but for the chance to serve this nation, and if this nation decides to merge then i'm all for it. not because of the money but rather for what is best for the nation. So far, money is the one and single only reason on offer. And not even all that much money....simply moving from comfortable to comfortable, because of cheaper cars and oranges. At any rate, I see you've gone from warming up to the idea all the way to fully embracing it. Which is cool...except that, were it to occur, it would take a very long time, and you and I will probably be gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 So far, money is the one and single only reason on offer. And even the financial benefits of a merger are dubious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 And even the financial benefits of a merger are dubious. Yeah, another point I made which to my knowledge has remained unaddressed. We simply can't predict with real accuracy the financial effects of such a massive merger....not to mention that the panaceas of low taxes and low consumer prices (which are not totally without issue in and of themselves, just by the way!), aren't irrefutably going to be the status quo in the future United States of AmeriCanada anyway. I should think that a....well, conservative...approach would be extreme caution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 Yeah, another point I made which to my knowledge has remained unaddressed. We simply can't predict with real accuracy the financial effects of such a massive merger....not to mention that the panaceas of low taxes and low consumer prices (which are not totally without issue in and of themselves, just by the way!), aren't irrefutably going to be the status quo in the future United States of AmeriCanada anyway. I should think that a....well, conservative...approach would be extreme caution. I personally think common sense suggests it would be a really bad financial move for Canada in the long term. Picture two 100 acre parcels.... on one parcel lives a single family. On the other parcel lives 10 families. Both parcels are rich in resources (forests, minerals, soil, water) only the single family parcel is a little richer. A plan is devised to merge the two parcels and just share it all. The essental result of this arrangement is that the single family that lived on parcel A goes from controlling 100 acres to controlling 18. As long as there was a friendly relationship between parcel A, and parcel B, they would have been MUCH better off keeping their parcel and gradually selling goods and resources to the greater population on parcel B at ever increasing prices as resources on parcel B became depleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 Speaking for myself, I'd like a whole lot less government on my back. What government there is following that should be localized to the greatest extent possible, that way it'll be closer in case I need to get on it's back. But with Global standards, right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 But with Global standards, right ? Where democratic nations can agree on them... yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickturpin Posted November 9, 2013 Report Share Posted November 9, 2013 Not possible. Are you kidding? I heard that 3 out of 4 Americans don't even have a passport. Is that an accurate statistic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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