Should Marijuana Be Legal?

[Hal 9000]

No, the point is even being charged with that offence can have long reaching affects for such things as employment and travelling outside Canada, especially the US. Anyway, I suspect whichever party replaces Harper's will get that off the books in short order.

Holy Fuck, it's not 59,000 being charged. It's 59,000 "INCIDENTS" - Do you know what the word incident means?

Tom Stamatakis, president of the Canadian Police Association, can't remember ever charging someone with pot possession or showing up at court for a possession charge.

"Before police would charge someone (with possession), there would have to be some other aggravating factor," he said.

Stamatakis said, in most cases, possession charges are often the result of more serious charges being downgraded through plea bargaining.

"For a (marijuana possession charge) to make its way to a full-blown trial is fairly rare."

[The_Squid]

Why are police wasting their time on 59,000 "incidents" when they could be catching actual criminals?

[Hal 9000]

In this day and age - even under the Harper government, you have to be a first rate fuck-up to get charged, convicted and end up with a criminal record for possession.

If you do the simple math of how many people smoke pot in Canada and how many people end up with records for possession, common sense will tell smart people (maybe not you), that the police, politicians and courts don't really care about weed possesion as much as the hysteria would indicate.

As for you question about why it's still on the books, you can look no further than the above quote from president of the CPA.

[cybercoma]

Did you forget that Harper tried to push through mandatory minimums for pot possession?

[Smallc]

In this day and age - even under the Harper government, you have to be a first rate fuck-up to get charged, convicted and end up with a criminal record for possession.

So again, why not formalize it? Legalize, regulate it, and tax it. Take the money out of the hands of the Hells Angels and give it to small business and government.

If you do the simple math of how many people smoke pot in Canada and how many people end up with records for possession, common sense will tell smart people (maybe not you), that the police, politicians and courts don't really care about weed possesion as much as the hysteria would indicate.

And yet there's always that chance.

As for you question about why it's still on the books, you can look no further than the above quote from president of the CPA.

So change the law, and make it official. The RCMP is still willing to lay charges, even if other police forces aren't. Harper's position on this matter is indefensible.

[Hal 9000]

Why are police wasting their time on 59,000 "incidents" when they could be catching actual criminals?

Example - Cops show up at a skate park and kids are smoking weed in front of small children - they confiscate the weed. That equals one incident per kid that they confiscate weed from - It's a reportable incident(s) - cop writes in his notebook, mentions it in his daily log and thats that - No names, no charges, no big deal. Just like when they see that same group with a couple beer - dump it out and write it in their little book - "incident".

If it's just a single joint, chances are that the cops will throw it down and grind it into the pavement.

Guys, our cops don't really care the way you think they do.

Seriously, I couldn't give a shit one way or another - mainly because I know for a fact that our quality of life will not change one way or another.

[Hal 9000]

Did you forget that Harper tried to push through mandatory minimums for pot possession?

2013 - "The Prime Minister also pledged to “look carefully” at the position of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police (CACP) that officers should have the option to ticket, rather than arrest, people nabbed for simple possession under 30 grams. Mr. Harper’s statement, too, is groundbreaking."

[On Guard for Thee]

Holy Fuck, it's not 59,000 being charged. It's 59,000 "INCIDENTS" - Do you know what the word incident means?

Tom Stamatakis, president of the Canadian Police Association, can't remember ever charging someone with pot possession or showing up at court for a possession charge.

"Before police would charge someone (with possession), there would have to be some other aggravating factor," he said.

Stamatakis said, in most cases, possession charges are often the result of more serious charges being downgraded through plea bargaining.

"For a (marijuana possession charge) to make its way to a full-blown trial is fairly rare."

No, that's arrests.

[cybercoma]

Where are you people getting this 59,000 figure from? I can't find the post with the reference and I want to suss out what "incidents" means.

[Hal 9000]

So again, why not formalize it? Legalize, regulate it, and tax it. Take the money out of the hands of the Hells Angels and give it to small business and government.

And yet there's always that chance.

So change the law, and make it official. The RCMP is still willing to lay charges, even if other police forces aren't. Harper's position on this matter is indefensible.

If a guy is selling to kids and you can't prove he is selling, you might be able to at least charge that dude with possession. That's what the president of the CPA is saying.

I have said i'm all for decriminalization and even possible legalization - all i'm arguing is that it's not the epidemic or crisis that you people are making it out to be. You're being manipulated by politicians throwing out a wedge issue - plain and simple.

[Hal 9000]

No, that's arrests.

Trudeau was quoted Aug. 23 saying the government's pot prohibition policy had "left 475,000 people with criminal records since the Conservatives took office in 2006."

Statistics Canada reports the number of all criminal incidents reported by police for possession, production, trafficking and/or distribution of marijuana at just under 480,000 since 2006.

A reported incident does not mean an arrest has been made, a charge laid or a conviction earned.

Trudeau's press secretary initially described his errors as a "slip of the tongue."

Tuesday, Trudeau appeared to double down on his figures, attributing that 475,000 as the number of pot-related arrests.

Statistics Canada does not keep records of the number of arrests, and Trudeau gave no indication where he got his statistic.

So, let's say 48,000 Incidents per year. If we also agree that 70% of those are for possession - that gives us 35,000 "incidents". Given that the very large majority of those are never even officially recorded brings that number of arrests way way down. Given what the president of the CPA says about marijuana charges going to trial are very rare, it stands to reason that it's a very minuscule amount of people who end up with a record - and as he said it's usually a plea bargain down from a more serious charge.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Hal 9000

[On Guard for Thee]

Trudeau was quoted Aug. 23 saying the government's pot prohibition policy had "left 475,000 people with criminal records since the Conservatives took office in 2006."

Statistics Canada reports the number of all criminal incidents reported by police for possession, production, trafficking and/or distribution of marijuana at just under 480,000 since 2006.

A reported incident does not mean an arrest has been made, a charge laid or a conviction earned.

Trudeau's press secretary initially described his errors as a "slip of the tongue."

Tuesday, Trudeau appeared to double down on his figures, attributing that 475,000 as the number of pot-related arrests.

Statistics Canada does not keep records of the number of arrests, and Trudeau gave no indication where he got his statistic.

58,965 ARRESTS for MJ possession in Canada in 2013. Of course they keep records, why do you think they call it Stats Canada.

http://www.ccsa.ca/Resource%20Library/CCSA-Canadian-Drug-Summary-Cannabis-2015-en.pdf

[cybercoma]

58,965 ARRESTS for MJ possession in Canada in 2013. Of course they keep records, why do you think they call it Stats Canada.

http://www.ccsa.ca/Resource%20Library/CCSA-Canadian-Drug-Summary-Cannabis-2015-en.pdf

Finally a link. Thank you.

[cybercoma]

58,965 ARRESTS for MJ possession in Canada in 2013. Of course they keep records, why do you think they call it Stats Canada.

http://www.ccsa.ca/Resource%20Library/CCSA-Canadian-Drug-Summary-Cannabis-2015-en.pdf

So the 59,000 figure is criminal code violations and doesn't account for examples like HAL gave, nor violations that were made under local bylaws or provincial codes. These are specific possession of cannabis violations.

[cybercoma]

IT should also be noted that only the most serious offences in an incident are included. So if someone was possessing weed, but they were also trafficking, running a grow operation, and had a gun on them, the possession charge likely wouldn't show up in the UCR, but could have resulted in charges and convictions.

Despite this, that 59,000 figure is an increase of 28% over the rate (per 100,000 people) in 2003. Clearly, more people are getting in trouble for possession of pot under Harper's legislation.

Edited September 8, 2015 by cybercoma

[On Guard for Thee]

Here is a similar look at it.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/blog/more-stats-on-pot-use

And I reckon now under C-10 you have a higher chance of actually doing ail time.

[bush_cheney2004]

So if they brought a law in outlawing alcohol, you would apply the same logic? The law is nonsense on both sides of the border. Some people, mainly poorer people, are getting criminal records for an activity that is ubiquitous. In BC, the law has broken down, is widely ignored by the police and Harper is doing nothing about that because he knows he would lose votes if he does.

Yes I would...if it meant that I would be prohibited from doing the things that I wanted to do. Rich people....poor people....doesn't matter, especially when they start trafficking, even in small amounts. Obviously several states have done far more to "legalize" dope than any law enforcement games in British Columbia, but at the U.S. border one has to live by U.S. federal rules & laws, and that includes arrest records. Pick dope... or entry.

By any health measure, marijuana is safer than alcohol and causes far fewer social problems. Continuing with these laws makes no sense to reasonable people on either side of the border. The majority of Canadians want decriminalization at least.

That's all well and good, but there is still a border, and each nation can deny entry regardless of arrest records for dope.

[Hal 9000]

IT should also be noted that only the most serious offences in an incident are included. So if someone was possessing weed, but they were also trafficking, running a grow operation, and had a gun on them, the possession charge likely wouldn't show up in the UCR, but could have resulted in charges and convictions.

Despite this, that 59,000 figure is an increase of 28% over the rate (per 100,000 people) in 2003. Clearly, more people are getting in trouble for possession of pot under Harper's legislation.

You obviously read the Statscan site, did you make it this far?

Most drug-related offences solved by police; departmental discretion more common for cannabis possession

Of all police-reported drug-related offences in 2013, more than three-quarters (78%) were cleared, or solved, by police. In contrast, 41% of Criminal Code incidents (excluding traffic) reported to police in 2013 were solved. The comparatively high clearance rate was driven by possession offences, as 85% of such offences were solved by police. Possession offences typically involve the presence of drugs on a person and as such are more likely to be cleared than other types of offences. In contrast, 67% of trafficking offences, 50% of offences involving import or export, and 36% of production offences were solved by police. When looking at the type of drug, offences involving methamphetamines (83%) or heroin (83%) were most likely to be solved by police, while those involving other controlled drugs and substances (70%) or cocaine (73%) had the lowest clearance rates.

The Incident-based Uniform Crime Reporting Survey also allows for more detailed information on the clearance status of police-reported offences. In general, drug-related offences are more likely than crime in general to be cleared through departmental discretion (26% compared to 8%). More than four in ten (41%) of all cleared cannabis offences were cleared through departmental discretion, while 17% of all other cleared drug offences were cleared by discretion. When looking at possession offences, 45% of cannabis and 24% of other drug types were cleared through departmental discretion. British Columbia, which reported the highest rate of drug-related offences in 2013, also reported the highest proportion of offences cleared by departmental discretion (i.e., by giving a warning, caution, or referral to a community-based program rather than laying a charge). Almost half (47%) of drug-relatedincidents in British Columbia were cleared through these means, of which the large majority (94%) were related to possession.

Now, Ive got nothing against weed - legalize...don't legalize - I couldn't give a shit and I've got nothing against Trudeau, in fact, if it looks like it's between him and Mulcair, I have no qualms voting Liberal.

But, what we're seeing here is not a crisis or epidemic, we don't live in a police state and "the man" isn't coming to jail all dope smokers. If you went to jail or got a record for weed possession, chance are, like the CPA president said, you did something much worse (impaired, dealing, assault etc) than possession, but the police couldn't make the other charge stick.

The Liberals got shit kicked last time out and know they need to grab a definite demographic if they are going to compete, NDP has Unions and single moms, conservatives have those tough on crime and religious folk. The Liberals know the pot smokers are a big group and are simply manipulating that group with hyperbole and crisis talk to gain votes - isn't it obvious.

If someone wants to vote Liberal, good on 'em, but to do it based simply on a platform like legalizing marijuana truly stupid.

If Trudeau can prove (like he has stated) that a half million Canadians have been given criminal records for possession in the last 9 years, I'll apologize and take it all back.

[Hal 9000]

Just as a PS - after the 80% or so are cleared by police and the department. The ones that go to court get off about 55% of the time and of that 44% found guilty only about 16% ever see the inside of a jail - at an average of about 14 days, usually served over weekends or when a person can get off work.

[cybercoma]

And? Did you lose track of your earlier point?

[Hal 9000]

The point that I keep making is that legalizing marijuana is a wedge issue. Trudeau is taking small groups from both the NDP and Cons, but really needs to get the smokers mobilized if he is to win. Sure, he'll lie and skew the stats to ensure that pot smokers feel victimized enough to vote for him - that's the game.

[BC_chick]

somebody got put in jail in Canada for smoking pot?

When was that?

Really, who gives a shit in 2015?

We just wasted 45 pages and some brain cells on a non-topic.

The thread isn't "Should pot-smokers be jailed".

Just FYI.

[ReeferMadness]

Sure, he'll lie and skew the stats to ensure that pot smokers feel victimized enough to vote for him - that's the game.

You wouldn't just make this up, right? Please do give us a quote where he's lying and skewing stats.

[On Guard for Thee]

You wouldn't just make this up, right? Please do give us a quote where he's lying and skewing stats.

Apparently he can override stats can computers. And he's not even PM yet!

[Hal 9000]

You wouldn't just make this up, right? Please do give us a quote where he's lying and skewing stats.

Well, I've given Trudeau's quote and I've also (with the help of OGFT) provided Statscan info and they don't match, you can draw your own conclusions.

Maybe he's not lying, maybe he's just not good at math and stuff. I'd say he knows what he's saying, but also knows that the truth won't matter to victims of the police state Harper government.

"What matters now, Trudeau said, is ending a marijuana prohibition policy that he says costs law enforcement $500 million a year and has left 475,000 people with criminal records since the Conservatives took office in 2006."

Edited September 8, 2015 by Hal 9000