Should Marijuana Be Legal?

[cybercoma]

Ok, I will concede the point that a person can be inadmissible to enter the U.S. I've never had a problem and I'm one of those people. Hmmm...

it's still not a criminal record.

Tell them at the border that you've never been arrested for a drug offence and you'll find out quickly that it's a record.

[cybercoma]

You need to rethink your analysis. I don't think that "cleared" in this context means the charges were dropped. It means the crime itself was "cleared". From Wikipedia

Oh right. I never thought that HAL might not be understanding the term "cleared."

[cybercoma]

For more information on how "clearance" is being used in terms of Canadian UCR, you can check out this report, particularly pp. 3-6 and 13-15. It explains what an incident looks like and how the incident gets cleared.

Edited September 9, 2015 by cybercoma

[ReeferMadness]

Oh right. I never thought that HAL might not be understanding the term "cleared."

For more information on how "clearance" is being used in terms of Canadian UCR, you can check out this report, particularly pp. 3-6 and 13-15. It explains what an incident looks like and how the incident gets cleared.

Thank you. HAL was subtracting the "total cleared" from the "total incidents" and assuming that was the number of people that were charged; then multiplying that by a percentage to get convictions. In fact, the number he thought was the total people charged is actually the number of incidents that didn't get cleared.

That figure is actually available and labeled as such from CANSIM; you just didn't select it.

[Hal 9000]

OK, lets go over it a little slower. I've seen cyber's site about calculating "clearance", but what you're missing is the reasons why an incident is cleared. Below, i've given the official term of "clearance" and what reasons there could be for clearance. The important thing to read (in both sections) is the term "departmental discretion", what it entails and how often it's used. Do the math from there. Text box 1

What is a clearance rate?

The clearance rate represents the proportion of criminal incidents solved by the police. Police can clear an incident by charge or by means other than the laying of a charge.

The most common reasons for clearing an incident by other means include: departmental discretion, the complainant declines to press charges, referral to a diversion program or departmental policy. For example, several of the provisions of the Youth Criminal Justice Act (YCJA) encourage police to consider alternatives to charging youth, such as issuing warnings, cautions or referrals to community programs or extrajudicial sanctions programs.

Less common reasons for clearing an incident by other means include: death of the accused, complainant or witness, committal of the accused to a mental hospital, the accused has diplomatic immunity or is in a foreign country and cannot be returned, the accused is less than 12 years of age, the accused is involved in other incidents or was already sentenced for another offence, the incident was cleared by a lesser statute or by another municipal, provincial or federal agency.

Most drug-related offences solved by police; departmental discretion more common for cannabis possession

Of all police-reported drug-related offences in 2013, more than three-quarters (78%) were cleared, or solved, by police. In contrast, 41% of Criminal Code incidents (excluding traffic) reported to police in 2013 were solved. The comparatively high clearance rate was driven by possession offences, as 85% of such offences were solved by police. Possession offences typically involve the presence of drugs on a person and as such are more likely to be cleared than other types of offences. In contrast, 67% of trafficking offences, 50% of offences involving import or export, and 36% of production offences were solved by police. When looking at the type of drug, offences involving methamphetamines (83%) or heroin (83%) were most likely to be solved by police, while those involving other controlled drugs and substances (70%) or cocaine (73%) had the lowest clearance rates.

The Incident-based Uniform Crime Reporting Survey also allows for more detailed information on the clearance status of police-reported offences. In general, drug-related offences are more likely than crime in general to be cleared through departmental discretion (26% compared to 8%). More than four in ten (41%) of all cleared cannabis offences were cleared through departmental discretion, while 17% of all other cleared drug offences were cleared by discretion. When looking at possession offences, 45% of cannabis and 24% of other drug types were cleared through departmental discretion. British Columbia, which reported the highest rate of drug-related offences in 2013, also reported the highest proportion of offences cleared by departmental discretion (i.e., by giving a warning, caution, or referral to a community-based program rather than laying a charge). Almost half (47%) of drug-relatedincidents in British Columbia were cleared through these means, of which the large majority (94%) were related to possession.

[eyeball]

Almost half (47%) of drug-relatedincidents in British Columbia were cleared through these means, of which the large majority (94%) were related to possession.

And voters should just say meh in face of the sheer amount of time money and resources being wasted on dragging hundreds of thousands of Canadians through this shit year after year and decade after decade.

That's a little sociopathic to say the least.

[cybercoma]

That figure is actually available and labeled as such from CANSIM; you just didn't select it.

Sure, let's post that too then.

So there's been over 300,000 charges laid in cannabis-related incidents since Harper took office. Sometimes charges aren't laid because the accused dies before they can lay charges or something else happens which prevents them from laying charges (a witness refuses to testify, not enough evidence, a procedural error in the arrest, the prosecution doesn't want to take the case, etc.). The arrest still goes on the person's record.

Edited September 9, 2015 by cybercoma

[Hal 9000]

And voters should just say meh in face of the sheer amount of time money and resources being wasted on dragging hundreds of thousands of Canadians through this shit year after year and decade after decade.

That's a little sociopathic to say the least.

I don't know about hundreds of thousands, but anyway...Looking at the stats and the amount of warnings or thrown out cases etc, it would seem that the primary function of this law is simply to charge a drug dealer with something/anything when trafficking charges just won't stick.

[ReeferMadness]

Edited September 9, 2015 by ReeferMadness

[eyeball]

I don't know about hundreds of thousands, but anyway...Looking at the stats and the amount of warnings or thrown out cases etc, it would seem that the primary function of this law is simply to charge a drug dealer with something/anything when trafficking charges just won't stick.

I care about what it is not what it seems.

Even if the state was only jumping on the backs of a handful of people, the blase pointless nature of how and why it does so is so offensive that I imagine hundreds of thousands of people if not a few million will find it to be reason enough to not vote for anything or anyone who would maintain doing so. That said I'm just as certain there are a few million or more who will unquestioningly vote for the only party who does.

This is by no means a small little wedge issue at all. It's a big wedge issue that's been a big thorn in our side for decades.

[Hal 9000]

I care about what it is not what it seems.

Even if the state was only jumping on the backs of a handful of people, the blase pointless nature of how and why it does so is so offensive that I imagine hundreds of thousands of people if not a few million will find it to be reason enough to not vote for anything or anyone who would maintain doing so. That said I'm just as certain there are a few million or more who will unquestioningly vote for the only party who does.

This is by no means a small little wedge issue at all. It's a big wedge issue that's been a big thorn in our side for decades.

Really, 0.01% (cut that in half for minors) of people (mainly drug dealers) getting a record and spending a couple weeks in jail is a huge issue, a thorn in our side for decades - wow, there's some hyperbole.

As I said before, if someone votes Liberal for economic reason, fair enough, but if ones sole purpose is to vote Liberal based on marijuana laws - they are truly a nitwit.

[BubberMiley]

Really, 0.01% (cut that in half for minors) of people (mainly drug dealers) getting a record and spending a couple weeks in jail is a huge issue, a thorn in our side for decades - wow, there's some hyperbole.

As I said before, if someone votes Liberal for economic reason, fair enough, but if ones sole purpose is to vote Liberal based on marijuana laws - they are truly a nitwit.

Not as stupid as voting for the CPC for their economic record.

[ReeferMadness]

OK, lets go over it a little slower. I've seen cyber's site about calculating "clearance", but what you're missing is the reasons why an incident is cleared. Below, i've given the official term of "clearance" and what reasons there could be for clearance. The important thing to read (in both sections) is the term "departmental discretion", what it entails and how often it's used. Do the math from there.

Text box 1

What is a clearance rate?

The clearance rate represents the proportion of criminal incidents solved by the police. Police can clear an incident by charge or by means other than the laying of a charge.

The most common reasons for clearing an incident by other means include: departmental discretion, the complainant declines to press charges, referral to a diversion program or departmental policy. For example, several of the provisions of the Youth Criminal Justice Act (YCJA) encourage police to consider alternatives to charging youth, such as issuing warnings, cautions or referrals to community programs or extrajudicial sanctions programs.

Less common reasons for clearing an incident by other means include: death of the accused, complainant or witness, committal of the accused to a mental hospital, the accused has diplomatic immunity or is in a foreign country and cannot be returned, the accused is less than 12 years of age, the accused is involved in other incidents or was already sentenced for another offence, the incident was cleared by a lesser statute or by another municipal, provincial or federal agency.

Most drug-related offences solved by police; departmental discretion more common for cannabis possession

Of all police-reported drug-related offences in 2013, more than three-quarters (78%) were cleared, or solved, by police. In contrast, 41% of Criminal Code incidents (excluding traffic) reported to police in 2013 were solved. The comparatively high clearance rate was driven by possession offences, as 85% of such offences were solved by police. Possession offences typically involve the presence of drugs on a person and as such are more likely to be cleared than other types of offences. In contrast, 67% of trafficking offences, 50% of offences involving import or export, and 36% of production offences were solved by police. When looking at the type of drug, offences involving methamphetamines (83%) or heroin (83%) were most likely to be solved by police, while those involving other controlled drugs and substances (70%) or cocaine (73%) had the lowest clearance rates.

The Incident-based Uniform Crime Reporting Survey also allows for more detailed information on the clearance status of police-reported offences. In general, drug-related offences are more likely than crime in general to be cleared through departmental discretion (26% compared to 8%). More than four in ten (41%) of all cleared cannabis offences were cleared through departmental discretion, while 17% of all other cleared drug offences were cleared by discretion. When looking at possession offences, 45% of cannabis and 24% of other drug types were cleared through departmental discretion. British Columbia, which reported the highest rate of drug-related offences in 2013, also reported the highest proportion of offences cleared by departmental discretion (i.e., by giving a warning, caution, or referral to a community-based program rather than laying a charge). Almost half (47%) of drug-relatedincidents in British Columbia were cleared through these means, of which the large majority (94%) were related to possession.

Wow, you really have trouble admitting you're wrong. While all of this stuff is technically correct, it's also irrelevant. What is relevant is the number of people that are getting dragged through the system.

Look at the chart below. In 2014, there were 57,314 incidents involving possession of pot. Of those 22,223 were "cleared by charge", meaning charges were laid. In 2014, 24,542 people were criminally charged with possession of marijuana (ie some incidents resulted in more than one person being charged. Now, do you get it? I'm not sure I can make it much simpler.

If you sum the rows, you will find that over 220,000 people have been criminally charged with marijuana possession since 2006 and almost 92,000 more were charged with more serious offenses. That's over 310,000 people who have been dragged through the criminal system (please don't call it a justice system) for a substance that is less dangerous than either tobacco or alcohol.

It's a waste of time. It's a waste of money. It's a waste of peoples lives.

[Hal 9000]

OK, fair enough! 220,000! Subtract the minors who won't end up with a record anyway, subtract the thrown out cases (55%) and what were left with is about 50,000 guilty cases over that 10 years (5,000 per year) and I think about 16% actually see jail time. My numbers are pretty close and certainly closer than Trudeau's claim of 475,000 people with criminal records. And it would appear that the guilty cases had other elements or charges attached to them - meaning it's not just simple possession.

Anyway, once again, I have no issue with weed - legalize, don't legalize - who gives a shit. My issue is as has always been - wedge issue,! Not enough people affected to bother worrying about it - Meh!

Why don't you hassle Trudeau over his numbers?

[SpankyMcFarland]

Why should anybody be charged for possessing marijuana for personal use? One is too many.

[cybercoma]

OK, fair enough! 220,000!

My issue is as has always been - wedge issue,! Not enough people affected to bother worrying about it - Meh!

220,000 people is not enough?

That's over 1.5x the population of Prince Edward Island.

That's approximately every second person in Newfoundland and Labrador.

That's roughly 1 in 3 people in New Brunswick.

That's about 1 in 4 people in Nova Scotia.

That's near 1 in 6 people in Manitoba or Saskatchewan.

That's the entire population of Saskatoon or Burnaby or Kitchener.

*shrugs* No big deal. Just a handful of people getting criminal records for outdated prohibition laws.

[ReeferMadness]

220,000 people is not enough?

That's over 1.5x the population of Prince Edward Island.

That's approximately every second person in Newfoundland and Labrador.

That's roughly 1 in 3 people in New Brunswick.

That's about 1 in 4 people in Nova Scotia.

That's near 1 in 6 people in Manitoba or Saskatchewan.

That's the entire population of Saskatoon or Burnaby or Kitchener.

*shrugs* No big deal. Just a handful of people getting criminal records for outdated prohibition laws.

220,000 is just the number for simple possession. Another 91,000+ have been charged for other marijuana offenses. None of them would be charged if people had a legal, safe supplier.

[Hal 9000]

220,000 is just the number for simple possession. Another 91,000+ have been charged for other marijuana offenses. None of them would be charged if people had a legal, safe supplier.

220,000 people is not enough?

That's over 1.5x the population of Prince Edward Island.

That's approximately every second person in Newfoundland and Labrador.

That's roughly 1 in 3 people in New Brunswick.

That's about 1 in 4 people in Nova Scotia.

That's near 1 in 6 people in Manitoba or Saskatchewan.

That's the entire population of Saskatoon or Burnaby or Kitchener.

*shrugs* No big deal. Just a handful of people getting criminal records for outdated prohibition laws.

Only about a quarter of those are getting records - and so what, they're drug dealers and guys who've plead down from bigger charges.

Why not seek out the number of kids who'll go hungry tonight or get beaten by a parent, or the number of men killed every year at work, or the amount of people who went bankrupt last year. Sorry, a bunch of losers getting a record for marijuana possession means nothing....NOTHING to me.

[Hal 9000]

220,000 is just the number for simple possession. Another 91,000+ have been charged for other marijuana offenses. None of them would be charged if people had a legal, safe supplier.

So, you want to fight for the rights of drug dealers now too? Go right ahead, I couldn't care less.

[cybercoma]

Only about a quarter of those are getting records

You still have absolutely zero understanding of what the UCR tells us, even after all these pages and all these posters explaining it to you. I give up. You're more interested in pretending you know everything than actually understanding what people are saying to you.

[ReeferMadness]

So, you want to fight for the rights of drug dealers now too? Go right ahead, I couldn't care less.

I want to fight for good policy. Putting drug dealers out of business is much smarter than wasting time and money dragging them through the criminal system.

[Hal 9000]

You still have absolutely zero understanding of what the UCR tells us, even after all these pages and all these posters explaining it to you. I give up. You're more interested in pretending you know everything than actually understanding what people are saying to you.

How many are getting criminal records? I mean, that's the issue put forth by Trudeau - right?

[ReeferMadness]

Only about a quarter of those are getting records - and so what, they're drug dealers and guys who've plead down from bigger charges.

Will you PLEASE stop making up sh*t?

[Hal 9000]

I want to fight for good policy. Putting drug dealers out of business is much smarter than wasting time and money dragging them through the criminal system.

I'm not arguing against legalization though - never have!

[Hal 9000]

Will you PLEASE stop making up sh*t?

What am I making up?