Mass shooting

[August1991]

I haven't read through this entire thread.

Somebody like Adam Lanza (or Kimveer Gill or so on...) doesn't seem like the guy who'd be able to get a gun through illegal channels. These guys are basically losers. They don't have many real-world connections, let alone underworld connections.

I believe that some states have limits on magazine sizes. Some states have regulations requiring that a detachable magazine requires a tool to operate. Here in Canada, semi-automatic center-fire rifles are limited to 5-shot magazines. I have a hard time seeing a need for more. Maybe some gun expert will have an anecdote about how fast they can reload their weapon... but how many of these kids who have committed these rampages have actually had that kind of gun expertise? Anything that slows down the hail of lead should have a chance of saving lives.

edit to add: this has gotten pretty immature, guys.

-k

Yet, these two "weirdos" legally obtained these guns - in jurisdictions with very different gun-control laws. What do we do if a "weirdo" gets control of a nuclear weapon?

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We are now 7 billion in this world. Even if only 0.01% of the population is crazy, lunatic, that means 700,000 people. It makes no sense to give everyone "the right to bear arms".

[Guest Derek L]

I haven't read through this entire thread.

Yet, these two "weirdos" legally obtained these guns - in jurisdictions with very different gun-control laws. What do we do if a "weirdo" gets control of a nuclear weapon?

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We are now 7 billion in this world. Even if only 0.01% of the population is crazy, lunatic, that means 700,000 people. It makes no sense to give everyone "the right to bear arms".

But on the same day, in China a man went into a school and started stabbing children……….Or the man that attacked three random elderly women not too long ago here in Vancouver………The guy the cut a persons head off on the bus…….A few years ago the man that went into a daycare in Belgium with an axe and killed and injured over a dozen toddlers?

Are these attacks, sans firearms, acceptable to our society?

What clearly needs to happen is a discussion on mental health………

[bush_cheney2004]

Here in Canada, semi-automatic center-fire rifles are limited to 5-shot magazines. I have a hard time seeing a need for more.

How does the Canadian receiver know the magazine's capacity ? What prevents buying a higher capacity mag online ?

Maybe some gun expert will have an anecdote about how fast they can reload their weapon... but how many of these kids who have committed these rampages have actually had that kind of gun expertise?

We already know that he spent time on the range with Mom. The family that shoots together stays together ?

Anything that slows down the hail of lead should have a chance of saving lives.

In theory, but not in practice. The shooter usually has to be killed by himself or police, absent an armed bystander or security guard.

[kimmy]

But on the same day, in China a man went into a school and started stabbing children……….Or the man that attacked three random elderly women not too long ago here in Vancouver………The guy the cut a persons head off on the bus…….A few years ago the man that went into a daycare in Belgium with an axe and killed and injured over a dozen toddlers?

Are these attacks, sans firearms, acceptable to our society?

Nobody actually died in the China stabbing spree. So while it's not any more acceptable, at least it was a lot less deadly.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

….A few years ago the man that went into a daycare in Belgium with an axe and killed and injured over a dozen toddlers?

Seriously ? And we thought just Americans were nuts.

What clearly needs to happen is a discussion on mental health………

Yep...stop wasting time on hardware.....fix the software.

[cybercoma]

In many cases, the guns are tools of professional criminals who will have access to guns through illegal channels whatever the law says.

-k

This is a common argument and it understates the complexity of obtaining guns illegally. The problem with the current glut of guns is that they're easy to obtain, so they're dirt cheap and there's little risk related to having one on you in jurisdictions where it's allowed. While major crime gangs will always have illegal firearms, making them more difficult to get in the first place and more risky to carry, drives the black market price up on the weapons. It's for those reasons that the cost of buying a black market gun in Canada is significantly higher than buying one in the US. So, as Argus pointed out, your local pimp is less likely to be standing on the street corner with a gun in his boxers, even if major criminal organizations still have them. The problem in the US is that it's just way too easy for people to get guns when they are literally everywhere.

[cybercoma]

But on the same day, in China a man went into a school and started stabbing children……….Or the man that attacked three random elderly women not too long ago here in Vancouver………The guy the cut a persons head off on the bus…….A few years ago the man that went into a daycare in Belgium with an axe and killed and injured over a dozen toddlers?

Are these attacks, sans firearms, acceptable to our society?

What clearly needs to happen is a discussion on mental health………

It's baffling that you just don't see that the attack in China completely undermines your right to bear arms fanaticism. The majority of people attacked in China survived.

I'll agree with you on one thing though. Guns don't kill people. They just make people way more efficient killers.

[Guest Derek L]

Nobody actually died in the China stabbing spree. So while it's not any more acceptable, at least it was a lot less deadly.

-k

Sure, but shouldn’t we be asking why it is these people, regardless the weapons they use, are motivated to inflict harm on others? Shouldn’t that be the end game? People not hurting other people………

We all talk about the weapons that they have used, perhaps we should be talking about what type of medication they were on (If any)………Or what type psychiatric treatment they were receiving (If any)

Like I said early in this thread, what has changed between now and when old farts like me and BC were younger? We had guns and ammo…….We had violence in the media………But these type of acts didn’t seem as frequent ~40 years ago……..

What has changed? In my opinion, the laws and methods associated with the treatment of mental illness………. Now I don’t wish to come across as lumping people with mental illness into the same category, there is quite obviously various forms and various severities, but I’/m sure that we can agree, in these shootings, the gunman is disturbed.

Like I said above, how do we as a society fix the problem?

[Guest Derek L]

Seriously ? And we thought just Americans were nuts.

Yup

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2009/01/23/belgium-stabbing.html

Yep...stop wasting time on hardware.....fix the software.

Bingo.

[Guest Derek L]

It's baffling that you just don't see that the attack in China completely undermines your right to bear arms fanaticism. The majority of people attacked in China survived.

I'll agree with you on one thing though. Guns don't kill people. They just make people way more efficient killers.

But you feel satisfied with Children being stabbed as opposed to shot? That's your endgame?

[cybercoma]

But you feel satisfied with Children being stabbed as opposed to shot? That's your endgame?

Uh... yeah. I'm grateful they survive the attack. Aren't you? Or do "you feel satisfied with Children dying as opposed to surviving? That's your endgame?"

[bush_cheney2004]

..... The problem in the US is that it's just way too easy for people to get guns when they are literally everywhere.

Guns are legal products in the US, just like cigarettes, which kill a helluva lot more people. Ban those too...

[cybercoma]

Guns are legal products in the US, just like cigarettes, which kill a helluva lot more people. Ban those too...

King of the red-herring logic ladies and gentlemen. He's here 24/7. Try the veal.

[bush_cheney2004]

But you feel satisfied with Children being stabbed as opposed to shot? That's your endgame?

It is said that Ghengis Khan's horde killed 1,700,000 people in less than one hour using the blade. Glad he didn't have any guns !

[Guest Derek L]

How does the Canadian receiver know the magazine's capacity ? What prevents buying a higher capacity mag online ?

Or removing the pop rivet with a butter knife...........

In theory, but not in practice. The shooter usually has to be killed by himself or police, absent an armed bystander or security guard.

Exactly.......And how many of these shootings take place in gun shows?

[Guest Derek L]

Uh... yeah. I'm grateful they survive the attack. Aren't you? Or do "you feel satisfied with Children dying as opposed to surviving? That's your endgame?"

I'd rather they not be attacked at all...........Think big picture

[BC_chick]

But on the same day, in China a man went into a school and started stabbing children……….Or the man that attacked three random elderly women not too long ago here in Vancouver………The guy the cut a persons head off on the bus…….A few years ago the man that went into a daycare in Belgium with an axe and killed and injured over a dozen toddlers?

Are these attacks, sans firearms, acceptable to our society?

What clearly needs to happen is a discussion on mental health………

Of course, it's never 'acceptable', but you really don't see the difference if the guy in Vancouver or Belgium had a semi-automatic?

[Guest Derek L]

Of course, it's never 'acceptable', but you really don't see the difference if the guy in Vancouver or Belgium had a semi-automatic?

Certainly, but let’s play this thought experiment out, let’s say we ban guns and get every single one off the street, after we have incidents like in China, Vancouver, the Greyhound bus and Belgium, do we then ban Knives? Of course not, as such, said treatment is not solving the condition or those that wish to ban guns aren’t letting an emotionally charged incident go to waste in helping further their agenda…………

Why not treat the condition that is making these people, a very small percentage of the population, kill or injure their fellow citizens? Wouldn’t that be prudent?

And even going back to guns and gun control, I’ve asked this question earlier in this thread, what is the difference between the United States & Canada, in that why we as Canadians, on a proportional basis, don’t see a “Mass Shooting” for every ten the Americans have? We have guns, we can even buy the exact same gun, using the exact same 30 round magazines (Pinned to five rounds with a pop rivet) as the shooter had in the States…………The only difference is relatively more extensive licensing and safe storage laws…….

Our Children watch the exact same TV & Movies, waste time to the same degree on the internet & Facebooking, are exposed to the same kind of street drugs and are prescribed the exact same Pharmaceuticals…………There lies a small difference……..Americans and Canadians both have mentally ill and potentially violent individuals within our society, so why aren’t we addressing the actual problem?

[jacee]

Certainly, but let’s play this thought experiment out, let’s say we ban guns and get every single one off the street, after we have incidents like in China, Vancouver, the Greyhound bus and Belgium, do we then ban Knives? Of course not, as such, said treatment is not solving the condition or those that wish to ban guns aren’t letting an emotionally charged incident go to waste in helping further their agenda…………

Oh way to obfuscate reality, Derek, you really make a good case for your absolute right to own an arsenal of assault rifles for your kid to play with.

How many people died in the knife attacks? (A few)

How many died in the gun attacks? (A lot)

Do you see the difference yet?

Why not treat the condition that is making these people, a very small percentage of the population, kill or injure their fellow citizens? Wouldn’t that be prudent?

OMIGOD! Why didn't we think of that!

Tell you what, Derek ... YOU find 'em, we'll fix 'em, K?

Get right on that eh?

[-TSS-]

There seems to be the same pattern every time when a massacre happens. In the immediate aftermath there is a lot of talk about the need for more gun control. However, the more time passes by the whole issue seems to be almost like, if not forgotten, then at least put on a hold.

[Bryan]

People who do things like this can't be fixed. The biggest obstacle to coming to ANY solution is we have people on both sides of the spectrum insisting that these things continue to happen. The right wants those types of guns to still be available, and the left doesn't want the mentally ill locked up.

[Black Dog]

Certainly, but let’s play this thought experiment out, let’s say we ban guns and get every single one off the street, after we have incidents like in China, Vancouver, the Greyhound bus and Belgium, do we then ban Knives? Of course not, as such, said treatment is not solving the condition or those that wish to ban guns aren’t letting an emotionally charged incident go to waste in helping further their agenda…………

Why not treat the condition that is making these people, a very small percentage of the population, kill or injure their fellow citizens? Wouldn’t that be prudent?

There's no reason improved handling and treatment of mental illness can't be a priority. At the same time, while that is happening, you need to be sure the people who might be prone to violence aren't able to access tools to cause mass harm/death. Gun control and better mental health services are not mutually exclusive and only someone who doesn't actually give a crap about the issue except so far as it affects MUH GUNZ would pretend otherwise.

[eyeball]

The right wants those types of guns to still be available, and the left doesn't want the mentally ill locked up.

If these two stark choices are all there are, I'd say the cost of taking all the guns away will be less than locking up the 20 - 25% of the human race that will suffer a mental illness during their life.

How about if we just lock up all the lefties and righties? I'm convinced it's their inability to get along that's driving most of the world nuts.

[GostHacked]

Oh way to obfuscate reality, Derek, you really make a good case for your absolute right to own an arsenal of assault rifles for your kid to play with.

I am not defending the gun porn, but Derek L hints at what the real problem is. Most of these people who have committed these tragedies have been on medication for some mental health issues. Also it has been documented that a lot of these drugs do strange things to people. My sister was on Paxil for some time, and her demeanor was not what I know of my sister. Irritable, a bit suicidal, ......

The drugs and the mental health issues are where the focus needs to be. If you can help solve that, the problem with mass shootings like this will dramatically decrease. We have such a deplorable support system for mental health issues that many will slip through the cracks and end up doing this kind of thing.

Getting rid of the guns will not solve the problem.

[bush_cheney2004]

... The right wants those types of guns to still be available, and the left doesn't want the mentally ill locked up.

Yep...that about sums things up. In another circumstance, the right wants to put limits on abortions ("saving" millions of children), but the left will not entertain any limits to abortion rights, regardless of fetus viability. Another war of ideology, wherein any compromise is perceived as a slippery slope to total bans....for guns....or aborted babies.

I heard an interesting stat this morning on NPR....only 2% of gun fatalities are caused by "assault" style weapons in the United States, and some of those are hunting accidents. The gun ban crowd is going to have a very steep hill to climb.