Meaning of Christmas becoming redundant?

[Sleipnir]

http://www.telegraph...laims-Pope.html

Pope benedict admits, from the bible, that Jesus was not born on December 25th or in Nazareth. He went on to say that Jesus was not born in a manger surrounded by angels or cattle.

It was proposed that the Dec 25th was chosen to coincided with the pagan holiday of Yule, with no other significant meaning. Some scholar placed Jesus's birth date in March 25th or even May 30th.

As a quote from an article:

http://people.howstu.../christmas4.htm

But by the early fourth century, Church leaders decided they needed a Christian alternative to rival popular solstice celebrations. They chose December 25th as the date of Christ's birth and held the first recorded Feast of the Nativity in Rome in A.D. 336. Whether they did so intentionally or not, Church leaders directly challenged a fellow up-start religion by placing the nativity on December 25th. The Cult of Mithras celebrated the birth of their infant god of light on the very same day.

So my thought is, why do we still celebrate something that never happened on December 25th? It's almost like a phantom holiday. December 25th, as it seems more appropriate, should be a celebration of the original meaning - paganism.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Sleipnir

[dre]

http://www.telegraph...laims-Pope.html

Pope benedict admits, from the bible, that Jesus was not born on December 25th. He went on to say that Jesus wasn't born in a manger surrounded by angels or cattle. He also said that Jesus was not born in Nazareth.

It was proposed that the Dec 25th was chosen to coincided with the pagan holiday of Yule, with no other significant meaning. Some scholar placed Jesus's birth date in March 25th or even May 30th.

As a quote from an article:

http://people.howstu.../christmas4.htm

But by the early fourth century, Church leaders decided they needed a Christian alternative to rival popular solstice celebrations. They chose December 25th as the date of Christ's birth and held the first recorded Feast of the Nativity in Rome in A.D. 336. Whether they did so intentionally or not, Church leaders directly challenged a fellow up-start religion by placing the nativity on December 25th. The Cult of Mithras celebrated the birth of their infant god of light on the very same day.

So my thought is, why do we still celebrate something that never happened on December 25th? It's almost like a phantom holiday. December 25th, as it seems more appropriate, should be a celebration of the original meaning - paganism.

Its true... The real meaning has been lost.

Origionally December 25 was celebrated as the birthday of the Sun-God Mithras. Then at some point the Roman government hunted down and killed most of the pagans and forced Romans to convert to this new religion they cooked up around this Jesus dude... he was actually born late in the summer but since Romans were already accustomed to celebrating on December 25, they just basically stole the Sun Gods birthday, and pretended thats when Jesus was born.

More recently it appears to have morphed into some kind of human version of the "running of the bulls" where people die stampeding into Walmart, and housewives pepper spray each other over the last X-Box 360, and threaten to stab each other.

[bush_cheney2004]

[Bonam]

At this point it's just a tradition that people follow. Many who follow it are not even Christians. Many atheist, Jewish, etc, families give gifts on Christmas and have Christmas trees, just part of the holiday fun.

[kimmy]

I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, or the virgin birth, or any of the other supernatural ideas that have been attached to the story. I still love Christmas.

I don't believe in ghosts and spirits, but I love Halloween.

One needn't believe in the original underpinnings to enjoy a good party.

I bet most Britons don't really care much about Guy Fawkes, but they still love the fireworks.

I feel the same way about Grinches who file lawsuits about nativity scenes that I would feel if somebody tried to ban jack o'lanterns on October 31.

-k

{And yes, remember the reason for the season! If you're celebrating the Yuletide without the Yulfuor, you've just got ... tide.}

Edited November 28, 2012 by kimmy

[Sleipnir]

I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, or the virgin birth, or any of the other supernatural ideas that have been attached to the story. I still love Christmas.

I don't believe in ghosts and spirits, but I love Halloween.

One needn't believe in the original underpinnings to enjoy a good party.

I bet most Britons don't really care much about Guy Fawkes, but they still love the fireworks...

-k

I feel the same way (except the Fawkes thingy, I don't know anything about that).

However, I find it curious that people who still celebrate Christmas as the birth of someone who wasn't born on that day.

[dre]

I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, or the virgin birth, or any of the other supernatural ideas that have been attached to the story. I still love Christmas.

I don't believe in ghosts and spirits, but I love Halloween.

One needn't believe in the original underpinnings to enjoy a good party.

I know what you mean! I hate work, but I still love labor day!

[wyly]

Its true... The real meaning has been lost.

Origionally December 25 was celebrated as the birthday of the Sun-God Mithras. Then at some point the Roman government hunted down and killed most of the pagans and forced Romans to convert to this new religion they cooked up around this Jesus dude... he was actually born late in the summer but since Romans were already accustomed to celebrating on December 25, they just basically stole the Sun Gods birthday, and pretended thats when Jesus was born.

More recently it appears to have morphed into some kind of human version of the "running of the bulls" where people die stampeding into Walmart, and housewives pepper spray each other over the last X-Box 360, and threaten to stab each other.

telling people how, who or what they could worship was just as dangerous back then as it is now... the romans were quite practical they incorporated chistianity alongside their traditional beliefs, they never replaced their old beliefs they just made some minor adjustments and renamed their old gods....the two melded into one over time...

the winter solstice is a common celebration signalling the return of the light/sun a life giving event in cold climes early christian missionaries loved keeping their heads attached to their shoulders so telling pagan sun worshipers their favourite party was to be cancelled was not a good idea..., better to move jesus birthday to the time of the solstice celebration and avoid conflict....

Edited November 28, 2012 by wyly

[GostHacked]

Christmas is not what it should be. The true meaning of it has been replaced by insane consumerism driven by companies that want you to buy their products. I was at the mall the other day to pick up a couple items and everything is buy buy buy, sale sale sale, spend money, give give give. It's nothing more than an economic driver and has little to no meaning or value anymore.

Spend time with your family and friends. Share some laughs and love. We have a Christmas that is driven by materialism instead of spiritualism.

Redundant is the wrong term. Christmas and the true meanings have changed, because of how people see Christmas.

Edited November 28, 2012 by GostHacked

[Boges]

It always cracks me up when people think a Christmas Tree is something to be celebrated alongside the Nativity.

A Christmas Tree has to be the most Pagan thing ever. Same with celebrating a bunny that lays eggs during Easter.

People celebrate what they want to celebrate. Even if Jesus wasn't born December 25th, at least Christmas Eve is a time when people who don't go to church regularly attend, so it's a time to celebrate that at least.

[Mighty AC]

"Hey, since when was Christmas just about the presents? Aren't we forgetting the true meaning of this day? The birth of Santa?"

— Bart Simpson

[jacee]

More recently it appears to have morphed into some kind of human version of the "running of the bulls" where people die stampeding into Walmart, and housewives pepper spray each other over the last X-Box 360, and threaten to stab each other.

I agree the Christmas shopathon is disgusting.

BOYCOTT CHRISTMAS GIFTS!!!

Except for kids, of course ... in moderation.

Adults can buy their own damn stuff.

What someone else buys for you is seldom what you'd buy for yourself anyway.

[bleeding heart]

Even if Jesus wasn't born December 25th, at least Christmas Eve is a time when people who don't go to church regularly attend, so it's a time to celebrate that at least.

Why should I "celebrate" that people go to church?

[Boges]

Why should I "celebrate" that people go to church?

I don't expect you to. But people that do go to church would though. I think most church's see Christmas Eve as an Open House were they can appeal to new members even though Christmas' roots have nothing to do with Jesus.

[bleeding heart]

I don't expect you to. But people that do go to church would though. I think most church's see Christmas Eve as an Open House were they can appeal to new members even though Christmas' roots have nothing to do with Jesus.

Sorry, Boges. I actually thought I had deleted my post, as I wasn't even sure what it's point was.

Now that you've responded, I might as well leave it up.

[wyly]

I don't expect you to. But people that do go to church would though. I think most church's see Christmas Eve as an Open House were they can appeal to new members even though Christmas' roots have nothing to do with Jesus.

it's a cultural celebration I know an atheist that attends church at xmas, and I've a number of atheist family members that got married in a church...

[bush_cheney2004]

It always cracks me up when people think a Christmas Tree is something to be celebrated alongside the Nativity.

A Christmas Tree has to be the most Pagan thing ever. Same with celebrating a bunny that lays eggs during Easter.

Pagans rule...damn if I'm going to let a bunch of Atheists or Christians ruin my Christmas !

[Shady]

I don't know many people that think a Christmas tree is tantamount to a nativity scene.

[Guest]

I hate Christmas. I can't wait for it to be over. It's just an exercise in stress trying to spend money I don't have to buy presents that nobody wants just so some business owner or some stockholder can get a little richer.

Christians should light a candle and the rest of us should just go to work. The Christians can come to work after they've lit the candle.

[Mighty AC]

I'm a minimalist living with a maximalist and kids. I get your hatred of stuff... For 4 straight years, I have asked for absolutely no presents from family; instead I've given a list of charities I'd like them to support on my behalf. Not a single family member has honoured my request. Though a few have at least stopped buying me cards and have given experience type gifts like ebooks or tickets to concerts and sporting events. I'm an atheist and I tell my Christian family members that Jesus would have been happier with my plan for his fake, mistimed birthday celebration than theirs. C'est la vie, I suppose.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Mighty AC

[msj]

I think many people (regardless of religious belief) are similar to this:

I am more like Ricky Gervais when asked "How do you plan on celebrating Christmas?:"

Eating and drinking too much with friends and family. Celebrating life and remembering those that did, but can no longer.

They are not looking down on me but they live in my mind and heart more than they ever did probably. Some, I was lucky enough to bump into on this planet of six billion people. Others shared much of my genetic material. One selflessly did her best for me all my life. That’s what mums do though. They do it for no other reason than love. Not for reward. Not for recognition. They create you. From nothing. Miracle? They do those every day. No big deal. They are not worshiped. They would give their life without the promise of heaven. They teach you everything they know yet they are not declared prophets. And you only have one.

I am crying as I write this.

It usually gets me this time of year. That’s what’s special about Christmas. It’s when you visit or reminisce about the ones you love. And reflect on how lucky you are. How they helped shape you....

That's worth celebrating no matter what it's called and no matter what silly belief system one chooses to justify such an occasion.

[Mighty AC]

Outstanding post and quote!

[Sleipnir]

"Yule was midwinter festival, celebrated by the Norse people as the day of merrymaking. It was commemorated with the Yule cake and giving out gifts."

"On the night of Yule, children usually placed socks filled with hay outside their doors to feed Sleipnir."

"The Christians has adopted many of the pagan customs of Yule in the day of Christmas (December 25), such as giving out gifts to children, the decoration of the fir trees. Saint Nicholas, or Santa Claus as he was popularly known today, and his reindeers replaced Odin and Sleipnir of the Wild Hunt."

http://www.timelessm.../norse/way.html

I'm so gonna celebrate Yule this year as a change of scenery!

Edited November 29, 2012 by Sleipnir

[Mighty AC]

I suggest Festivus...a celebration for the rest of us!

[Sleipnir]

I suggest Festivus...a celebration for the rest of us!

Not much of a holiday decoration

*image from wikipeida - festivus*

Edited November 29, 2012 by Sleipnir