CPCFTW Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I never said they were. Go back and have someone read my post to you. Maybe they can help you. Typical lefty, don't know what you're protesting or arguing. Just making noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 That's like saying if a person has an argument with their spouse, gets liquored up and drives, they get a free pass because they're going through a tough time. Give me a break. And it is precisely their fault. They could choose to do drugs and take the risk that comes with it or not. They chose poorly. Why should society have to subsidize poor choices? That pedestal ain't going anywhere. I know enough about humanity that it is folly to try and snell the snake oil of "it's okay to be lazy and poor, somebody else will take care of us." Ah yes ... the dichotomous black and white thinking ... Are you a hockey fan bb? I neglected to include another population vulnerable to addiction ... pro athletes ... especially, according to a cbc show today, those known as "enforcers". According to some of them, they don't like the job of fighting and it often leads to addictions. Do you have any understanding of mental illness bb - like the fact that it isn't something a person can control? That it affects their ability to think clearly and may result in bad 'choices' that they can't control, rather like the voices in their heads that they can't control either? Addictions and the factors that underlie them may not be something many of us have experienced, but it is still possible to understand it. It is still true that only the addict can choose to get clean, and it's a very difficult thing to do, harder work than most of us (including you) have ever done. It isn't as simple as good or bad, choices or otherwise. Life seldom is that simple and certainly people aren't. And it definitely isn't as simple as 'rich people are good and deserve everything they can take, and poor people are bad' and deserve nothing except to die in the streets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Ah yes ... the dichotomous black and white thinking ... Are you a hockey fan bb? I neglected to include another population vulnerable to addiction ... pro athletes ... especially, according to a cbc show today, those known as "enforcers". According to some of them, they don't like the job of fighting and it often leads to addictions. Do you have any understanding of mental illness bb - like the fact that it isn't something a person can control? That it affects their ability to think clearly and may result in bad 'choices' that they can't control, rather like the voices in their heads that they can't control either? Addictions and the factors that underlie them may not be something many of us have experienced, but it is still possible to understand it. It is still true that only the addict can choose to get clean, and it's a very difficult thing to do, harder work than most of us (including you) have ever done. It isn't as simple as good or bad, choices or otherwise. Life seldom is that simple and certainly people aren't. And it definitely isn't as simple as 'rich people are good and deserve everything they can take, and poor people are bad' and deserve nothing except to die in the streets. Keep digging, so now that people have mental illnesses, that gives them a free pass to do horrible things in society? Excuses excuses. If people quit making them and quit having scapegoats to have no problems on, things would be a lot better. What's next blaming a fat person's obesity because ere is a fast food joint near their house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grogy Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Ah yes ... the dichotomous black and white thinking ... Are you a hockey fan bb? I neglected to include another population vulnerable to addiction ... pro athletes ... especially, according to a cbc show today, those known as "enforcers". According to some of them, they don't like the job of fighting and it often leads to addictions. Do you have any understanding of mental illness bb - like the fact that it isn't something a person can control? That it affects their ability to think clearly and may result in bad 'choices' that they can't control, rather like the voices in their heads that they can't control either? Addictions and the factors that underlie them may not be something many of us have experienced, but it is still possible to understand it. It is still true that only the addict can choose to get clean, and it's a very difficult thing to do, harder work than most of us (including you) have ever done. It isn't as simple as good or bad, choices or otherwise. Life seldom is that simple and certainly people aren't. And it definitely isn't as simple as 'rich people are good and deserve everything they can take, and poor people are bad' and deserve nothing except to die in the streets. You obviously know so much about the issue, could you tell us the percentage of damaged people that turn into junkies vs the rest of the population? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Many people in this world have little or find little interest in the persuite of happiness because the opportunity to achieve is too dificult. WWWTT What's so difficult about it? What exactly should people be doing with their time besides "pursuing happiness" anyway? I don't know how one can be doing something besides pursuing happiness. If an activity isn't making you happy and/or isn't productive towards your longer term goals, why do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maple_leafs182 Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 People who support the Occupy protests, what do you think of the Tea Party? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 You obviously know so much about the issue, could you tell us the percentage of damaged people that turn into junkies vs the rest of the population? Depends what you're talking about ... The hockey enforcers had booze and sleeping pill parties to pass out, because they couldn't sleep otherwise. Injured players and other injured workers, car accident victims, etc etc, get prescribed and hooked on oxycontins (legal heroin) and some graduate to the street, and some are at the office or at home doing what druggies and drinkers do, maybe your neighbours. I wouldn't know how to define it. For every one that's identified there could be 5 or 105 more, dysfunctional but in nice houses and neighbourhoods so not identified except by their families/colleagues ... But ... "1 in 10 Canadians 15 years of age and over report symptoms consistent with alcohol or illicit drug dependence." http://www.camh.net/news_events/key_camh_facts_for_media/addictionmentalhealthstatistics.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted November 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Keep digging, so now that people have mental illnesses, that gives them a free pass to do horrible things in society? Excuses excuses. If people quit making them and quit having scapegoats to have no problems on, things would be a lot better. What's next blaming a fat person's obesity because ere is a fast food joint near their house? Oh ok heres another one along the same lines of your thinking. Why penalize drug dealers? Was it the drug dealers fault that these addicts OD'ed? I can't wait for your responce! Your right in saying that everyone must take responsibility for their actions,however there are other forces manipulating the environment that must be addresed or our society will never improve. And that is the goal here-to improve our society! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted November 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 What's so difficult about it? What exactly should people be doing with their time besides "pursuing happiness" anyway? I don't know how one can be doing something besides pursuing happiness. If an activity isn't making you happy and/or isn't productive towards your longer term goals, why do it? Why are you asking me this question? However what I am getting at is a "decent job",comfortable and affordable living conditions,etc,etc. Just because you and I have bein blessed to achieve these fundamentals does not mean everyone is. WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 You obviously know so much about the issue, could you tell us the percentage of damaged people that turn into junkies vs the rest of the population? The type of person you're arguing with comes packed with emotions, but no facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Keep digging, so now that people have mental illnesses, that gives them a free pass to do horrible things in society? Excuses excuses. If people quit making them and quit having scapegoats to have no problems on, things would be a lot better. What's next blaming a fat person's obesity because ere is a fast food joint near their house? Your stupid comment about the free pass is a strawnman. Nobody is advocating that criminals get a free pass. What is being suggested is that we ought to provide them with them with the proper support services so they don't end up criminals on the streets and addicted to drugs. We need to attack the problems, not the people. Moreover, there are instances where someone with a mental illness would be incapable of understanding the nature of their criminal behaviour, hence the insanity defense in the Criminal Code. It's like you've just slapped blinders on and all you can think about is how much punishment you can inflict on people without ever actually addressing the problems that lead these people to become criminals in the first place. Your band-aid solutions don't work and in fact have been shown to create more problems than they solve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 That's like saying if a person has an argument with their spouse, gets liquored up and drives, they get a free pass because they're going through a tough time. Give me a break. And it is precisely their fault. They could choose to do drugs and take the risk that comes with it or not. They chose poorly. Why should society have to subsidize poor choices? That pedestal ain't going anywhere. I know enough about humanity that it is folly to try and snell the snake oil of "it's okay to be lazy and poor, somebody else will take care of us." You obviously know so little about humanity that you must use a straw man fallacy argument to illustrate your point. Chronic abuses and mental illnesses are not episodal occurrences like in your straw man scenario. They are the rsult of years of dysfunctional relationships that the patient accepts as normal and acceptable. We could use you as an example. Your years spent listening to mom and pop slag other cultures, expressing their prejudices (and ignorance) has led you to believe that putting others down is normal and acceptable. Too bad you don;t even have a handle on your own reality..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 We could use you as an example. Your years spent listening to mom and pop slag other cultures, expressing their prejudices (and ignorance) has led you to believe that putting others down is normal and acceptable. Too bad you don;t even have a handle on your own reality..... I don't think you would know this about him, so trying to psychoanalyze a poster whom you don't know detracts from your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleClassCentrist Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) detracts from your argument. Sometimes, It's really not an argument. It is more just talking at someone who isn't listening. There is a clear difference. Edited November 13, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Oh ok heres another one along the same lines of your thinking. Why penalize drug dealers? Was it the drug dealers fault that these addicts OD'ed? I can't wait for your responce! Your right in saying that everyone must take responsibility for their actions,however there are other forces manipulating the environment that must be addresed or our society will never improve. And that is the goal here-to improve our society! WWWTT The drug dealers are penalized basically the same reason as anyone else. Possession. The dealers have more on them and hence bigger charges. The laws passed for trafficking are similar to putting the blame solely on fast food joints for enabling people to be fat. Unfortunately that does little to nothing unless you take care of the demand. No demand for drugs = no demand for dealers, much like no demand for fast food = Mickey d's goes bankrupt. At the end of the day there is one determinant of that demand and that's the junkie themselves. Boo hoo!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 It's like you've just slapped blinders on and all you can think about is how much punishment you can inflict on people without ever actually addressing the problems that lead these people to become criminals in the first place. Your band-aid solutions don't work and in fact have been shown to create more problems than they solve. CC, I would agree with you that most people have no choice about contracting mental illness, or receiving such bad luck and experiences as to beat them down to the point where they can no longer cope. However, I think we still have to factor in at least SOME sense of personal responsibility or we will never keep a lid on such problems, or truly help people to bear them and grow through them! We DO seem to be ultra-quick to excuse everyone for poor choices these days! Here in Hamilton a few years ago we had a highly placed civil serpent abuse the finances of his position to blow about a million dollars of taxpayer money on gambling at the casinos. He was caught eventually and fired. He then promptly sued the city, claiming that gambling addiction was an illness and the city as his employer was obligated to HELP him, not fire him! They settled out of court and he walked away with another couple of million! I've since met the man personally and if he was mentally ill he has recovered quite well. 'Course, nothing like all that money to take the stress off. We ARE responsible for our own actions and choices! This argument is not an all or nothing scenario but both sides here seem to be presenting their POV as such. One seems to say that no one should catch a break and the other one is saying that EVERYONE should be given a break! Life is just not that black and white. Both 'solutions' would do more harm than good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) You obviously know so little about humanity that you must use a straw man fallacy argument to illustrate your point. Chronic abuses and mental illnesses are not episodal occurrences like in your straw man scenario. They are the rsult of years of dysfunctional relationships that the patient accepts as normal and acceptable. We could use you as an example. Your years spent listening to mom and pop slag other cultures, expressing their prejudices (and ignorance) has led you to believe that putting others down is normal and acceptable. Too bad you don;t even have a handle on your own reality..... Boo hoo the free pass excuse. Keep making them. As for me, I don't slag any culture. I slag individuals for bad decisions. I think every culture is as good as the other one and blaming culture is ignorant. I slag others who make bad decisions because I live in a poor area of the country, and see some people lift themselves out of poverty by making good decisions and I see others wallow in property because they make bad decisions. Making excuses, having a pity party, and blaming others doesn't solve anything. Wow you've identified a problem and the cause, now people have the choice to either do something about it or wallow in misery. Edited November 13, 2011 by blueblood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Here in Hamilton a few years ago we had a highly placed civil serpent abuse the finances of his position to blow about a million dollars of taxpayer money on gambling at the casinos. He was caught eventually and fired. He then promptly sued the city, claiming that gambling addiction was an illness and the city as his employer was obligated to HELP him, not fire him! They settled out of court and he walked away with another couple of million! I've since met the man personally and if he was mentally ill he has recovered quite well. Here's an example of something that sounds like a fantasy. A guy steals a couple of million and gets a few million in a settlement without having to pay back the original money ? It'a also an example of something that needs a cite, at least from my point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Since you know this person personally, it should be easy to search his name for the news article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I don't think you would know this about him, so trying to psychoanalyze a poster whom you don't know detracts from your argument. Don't tell me YOU don't recognize a straw man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Don't tell me YOU don't recognize a straw man? Ok... you were purposefully using a straw man to illustrate the straw man argument ? That wasn't clear to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPCFTW Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) Oh ok heres another one along the same lines of your thinking. Why penalize drug dealers? Was it the drug dealers fault that these addicts OD'ed? I can't wait for your responce! Your right in saying that everyone must take responsibility for their actions,however there are other forces manipulating the environment that must be addresed or our society will never improve. And that is the goal here-to improve our society! WWWTT I'm sorry but what? That is exactly along the lines of thinking of Jacee, not Blueblood. Everyone is a victim of the 1% according to Jacee. If it weren't for the 1%, those drug dealers wouldn't need to deal drugs, but the 1% took all their rightful wealth!! Edited November 13, 2011 by CPCFTW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Here's an example of something that sounds like a fantasy. A guy steals a couple of million and gets a few million in a settlement without having to pay back the original money ? It'a also an example of something that needs a cite, at least from my point of view. No problem! A cite is usually better than my old memory! Here's one from 2003, when it all started: http://www.problemgambling.com/gambler_sues_casino_over_his_downfall.htm "A lawsuit says former Copps Coliseum boss Gabe Macaluso led a double life as a business executive on the one hand and a compulsive gambler at Casino Niagara, above, on the other. A high-profile Hamilton official who lost his job to a gambling addiction is suing the Ontario government and Casino Niagara for allegedly sending a limousine to take him back to the blackjack tables following a $500,000 loss" Another from The Toronto Star in 2007: http://www.thestar.com/News/article/243348 "Gabe Macaluso, the former head of Hamilton's Copps Coliseum, sued for $2 million, alleging he lost so much that he mused about suicide and was banned from Casino Niagara, only to be welcomed back two months later." A simple google will turn up lots more for you. I thought he had won a wrongful dismissal suit, thinking I had read it some years ago in the local paper but I went to the paper's website and a search turned up nothing. Either I'm mistaken or the paper doesn't keep records from 8 years ago. So I can't prove the suit against his employer, the City of Hamilton. However, the suit against the casino and the government for "letting him gamble" is documented. If you have the time and interest, you might want to also google the case of Dr. Jackman, late head of Hamilton's hospitals, who voluntarily quit and moved to another position in a different city yet collected almost a million dollars from Hamilton as severance pay! http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/house-proceedings/house_detail.do?locale=fr&Parl=37&Sess=1&Date=2000-10-05#P128_55366 "In Hamilton a few years ago, the former head of the Chedoke-McMaster Hospitals, Dr Jennifer Jackman, was offered $1.8 million in severance when she left that job. Public sector employees, when they voluntarily leave a job, are not entitled to severance. But with weasel words, with very clever lawyering, whether you leave on your own volition or are asked to leave, you get a hefty severance package when you're in this elite group. That amount of Dr Jackman's was eventually capped at $818,000 and payments have since been stopped, pending litigation. This litigation, by the way, is also paid for by taxpayers' dollars. It also left a very bitter taste in the mouths of taxpayers in the Hamilton region." But what else is new? It's just "situation normal". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Ah yes, the usual mumbo jumbo about everyone being a victim of circumstance, having no control, being ineffectual in the face of some cruel universe. What ever happened to people overcoming adversity and making something of themselves? Who said they have no control or are "ineffectual"? It is physics, it is cause and effect, it is statistics. Well-known Dr. Gabor Mate, psychiatrist at the Vancouver OnSite facility, said that every single addicted person he treated at the facility, without exception, was the victim of sexual/physical/severe physiological abuse growing up. It is simple statistics to know that if you are, say, molested as a kid, the odds of you running away (from your abusive parents or the shit-hole group homes you live in after being taken away from their parents by CAS) and living on the street, of not finishing high school, of being a drug addict, goes up dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 13, 2011 Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 Oh god... now we're going to have a bunch of responses that a completely ignore the fact that you're talking about probabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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