OCCUPY

[dre]

For example, there are 100,000 unfilled engineering jobs, and only a tiny trickle of people being educated to fill them.

No thats not the problem at all. The problem is theres a systemic lack of junior positions, and companies would rather hire temporary foreign workers with 5-10 years experience or offshore the jobs, than hire Canadian grads who lack both skill and experience.

The report also points to three challenges facing engineering employment. Primary among them is “the chronic and serious under-supply of junior engineer jobs,” the study states.

Coupling this shortage with industry’s strong preference for engineers with 5-10 of specialized experience, the profession faces a glut of engineering graduates who have difficulty gaining the experience needed for employment. Consequently, there are fewer qualified local or national candidates available.

This Catch-22, the report says, has lead to increased immigration of engineers under Canada’s Temporary Foreign Worker program. The analysis also suggests that “skill shortages are at least as important as cost factors, if not more important, in driving the increase in off-shoring.”

This according to Engineers Canada and Engineering recruitment firm, Randstad Engineering. They better expand that Temporary Foreign Workers program if they wanna fill all those positions, otherwise theyll move the jobs out.

Edited November 25, 2011 by dre

[CPCFTW]

No thats not the problem at all. The problem is theres a systemic lack of junior positions, and companies would rather hire temporary foreign workers with 5-10 years experience or offshore the jobs, than hire Canadian grads who lack both skill and experience.

This according to Engineers Canada and Engineering recruitment firm, Randstad Engineering. They better expand that Temporary Foreign Workers program if they wanna fill all those positions, otherwise theyll move the jobs out.

That's the problem with subsidizing degrees. High school grads would rather get a student loan and a subsidized degree than a job. Who wants to hire a 25 year old who has only read books his whole life?

Edited November 26, 2011 by CPCFTW

[jbg]

Yesterday my family was away for the Thanksgiving holiday. We were driving and saw an awning that said "(t)he Lawyer and the Baker". It happens I'm a lawyer and my son is into cooking.

I suggested that we go into the place, introduce ourselves, and promptly defacate on their floor, so as to "occupy" it.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Too many poli sci and sociology degrees.

They were all artsy hipsters at OCCUPY T.O. At least when I was there to see it.

[Shwa]

They were all artsy hipsters at OCCUPY T.O. At least when I was there to see it.

Come on now. Walk down Queen St. West on any Saturday and Sunday and all you see are artsy hipsters. Some of them quite aged. Howeve,r poli-sci and sociology students can dress artsy-hipster.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Come on now. Walk down Queen St. West on any Saturday and Sunday and all you see are artsy hipsters. Some of them quite aged. Howeve,r poli-sci and sociology students can dress artsy-hipster.

It was hilarious. All sitting around painting their slogans that don't make sense.

"Welcome to the land of opportunity" (bustling big city, small campground... yeah. about that.)

"You can't own anything because it was never yours to possess" Wait, what?

I still support their ability to protest, however.

Edited November 26, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Michael Hardner]

This according to Engineers Canada and Engineering recruitment firm, Randstad Engineering. They better expand that Temporary Foreign Workers program if they wanna fill all those positions, otherwise theyll move the jobs out.

Hi Dre... but I remember reading that in the past as well...

Could it be that Canada just doesn't want to train junior employs, and would rather have them pop out of university with 10 years' experience ? This strikes me as another example of corporations wanting government to solve their problems for them - in this case by forgoing the costs of giving experience to junior engineers, instead expecting government to import trained workers and their families paid for by the public.

[jacee]

Hi Dre... but I remember reading that in the past as well...

Could it be that Canada just doesn't want to train junior employs, and would rather have them pop out of university with 10 years' experience ? This strikes me as another example of corporations wanting government to solve their problems for them - in this case by forgoing the costs of giving experience to junior engineers, instead expecting government to import trained workers and their families paid for by the public.

You've nailed it.

Canada's public spending on education is high and productive. However private spending on job training is very low compared to other developed countries.

Employers complain and complain and avoid hiring inexperienced new grads, but they do NOTHING about providing them with the training and job experience necessary. Many university grads then take college courses with co-op, internship or other job opportunities to get specific skills and experience. It's an expensive way to do on-the-job training, but. Canadian employers refuse to do it themselves, and expect the taxpayers to do it.

Alberta is crying for trained, experienced workers, but has a very high high school dropout rate and low rate of going on to postsedondary: There are a lot of unemployed young Albertans but they won't get trained or hired.

This is a solution waiting to happen, if employers would team up with colleges, but it seems to me they'd rather complain than do anything constructive about it.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Hi Dre... but I remember reading that in the past as well...

Could it be that Canada just doesn't want to train junior employs, and would rather have them pop out of university with 10 years' experience ? This strikes me as another example of corporations wanting government to solve their problems for them - in this case by forgoing the costs of giving experience to junior engineers, instead expecting government to import trained workers and their families paid for by the public.

It also highlights why everyone sending their son/daughter to University or College should ensure they are in a co-op program to get some experience. From the parenting standpoint at least.

[Tilter]

all the druggies melted back into their old haunts------- their pushers breath a sigh of relief and business continues as usual.

Occupy

Real Big Deal

[dre]

Hi Dre... but I remember reading that in the past as well...

Could it be that Canada just doesn't want to train junior employs, and would rather have them pop out of university with 10 years' experience ? This strikes me as another example of corporations wanting government to solve their problems for them - in this case by forgoing the costs of giving experience to junior engineers, instead expecting government to import trained workers and their families paid for by the public.

I dont see the cost to the public really. We have to let in a boatload of immigrants every year anyways because canadians dont have sex enough without birth control. Engineers probably make pretty good immigrants and will be paying taxes in no time.

Anyhow... the invisible hand of the free market has spoken

Besides... if youre going to protect THESE workers from competition where are ya gonna stop?

[dre]

You've nailed it.

Canada's public spending on education is high and productive. However private spending on job training is very low compared to other developed countries.

Employers complain and complain and avoid hiring inexperienced new grads, but they do NOTHING about providing them with the training and job experience necessary. Many university grads then take college courses with co-op, internship or other job opportunities to get specific skills and experience. It's an expensive way to do on-the-job training, but. Canadian employers refuse to do it themselves, and expect the taxpayers to do it.

Alberta is crying for trained, experienced workers, but has a very high high school dropout rate and low rate of going on to postsedondary: There are a lot of unemployed young Albertans but they won't get trained or hired.

This is a solution waiting to happen, if employers would team up with colleges, but it seems to me they'd rather complain than do anything constructive about it.

They ARE doing something constructive about it. Theyre trying to staff their shops with experienced foreign engineers.

Alberta is crying for trained, experienced workers, but has a very high high school dropout rate and low rate of going on to postsedondary: There are a lot of unemployed young Albertans but they won't get trained or hired.

Expand the visa program! Flood the market with cheap foreign engineers! Thatll drive down prices for the Canadians as well. Then our corporations can start making some SERIOUS cash

Seriously didnt you get the memo?

Edited November 26, 2011 by dre

[SF/PF]

Alberta is crying for trained, experienced workers, but has a very high high school dropout rate and low rate of going on to postsedondary: There are a lot of unemployed young Albertans but they won't get trained or hired.

The problem, at least in the area of the skilled trades, is that employers don't want apprentices. They seem to expect that trained workers will just spring into existence. On large scale construction jobs, the apprentices that they do hire are usually left doing the same task for months (even years!) at a time so that they become really good and efficient at something that makes up but a small part of their trade.

Of course, employers love this because they get people that after a short time are doing journeyman level work (in that one area of the trade) for 50-80% of the journeyman rate. They don't seem to realize that in four years those apprentices will be journeyman and will be expected to be highly competent in things that they've never done before. And then the employers will complain about the lack of skills the journeymen have!

Frankly, I'm not sure its possible to save industry from itself.

Edited November 26, 2011 by SF/PF

[Wild Bill]

The problem, at least in the area of the skilled trades, is that employers don't want apprentices. They seem to expect that trained workers will just spring into existence. On large scale construction jobs, the apprentices that they do hire are usually left doing the same task for months (even years!) at a time so that they become really good and efficient at something that makes up but a small part of their trade.

Of course, employers love this because they get people that after a short time are doing journeyman level work (in that one area of the trade) for 50-80% of the journeyman rate. They don't seem to realize that in four years those apprentices will be journeyman and will be expected to be highly competent in things that they've never done before. And then the employers will complain about the lack of skills the journeymen have!

Frankly, I'm not sure its possible to save industry from itself.

You know, the last page or two in this thread actually started me laughing! It reminded me of the old saying that if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it to be true.

I graduated from grade 13 in the class of 70/71. That very fall was the first opening of Mohawk College and the start of the community colleges program.

There had been all kinds of talk about this new venture. One thing that was stressed was that the students would be taught by teachers fresh from industry! They were implying that many teachers tended to get behind the times, especially when we were entering the era of rapid change and technological advancement.

Over a decade later I was working in an industrial electronics store on the order desk and used to cringe when we got a call from some of Mohawk's electronics profs, especially the head of the department! Here we were selling bucketloads of the new computer "chips" to manufacturers, while some Mohawk prof was asking for parts that had been obsolete for at least 10 years, like incandescent pilot lamps when the whole world was using LEDs.

I guess that they may have been fresh when they were hired but once they were in the school they seemed to get progressively staler.

That's not the main point, however. In all the media for the adults and from all the guidance counselors in our high schools we had been constantly told that these community colleges would eliminate the need for industry to spend so much time and money training young new hires! The promise was that the school would "pre-train" them. They could be hired and with a minimum of orientation go straight to productive work!

By the 90's as an outside salesman I began to hear a different story. 'Personnel' had evolved from a small department that tracked the paperwork for employees, making sure they got their holidays and the correct amount of pension when they retired into a much larger department that had taken over most of the hiring process, leaving the department heads and supervisors that would receive these new employees out of the hiring loop.

Mostly we saw a clerical worker making the decision as to who to hire. Naturally, it had become a much more bureaucratic process. A clerk checked off a list of little boxes as to what certificates and diplomas you had accumulated. If enough boxes were checked you were in!

Of course, to a hands-on manager you may not have shown nearly as much aptitude as he would have liked. There is such a thing as talent and adaptibility which can make one candidate be a much better choice than another. To a clerk all faces are the same but many managers began to grumble, loudly!

We now have people lambasting companies for expecting too much of school graduates, when the whole affair started off with the schools convincing businesses of that very thing!

Who woulda thunk it!

[SF/PF]

Here we were selling bucketloads of the new computer "chips" to manufacturers, while some Mohawk prof was asking for parts that had been obsolete for at least 10 years, like incandescent pilot lamps when the whole world was using LEDs.

That may have had less to do with out-dated profs and more to do with out-dated equipment in the schools. Admittedly, both are large problems in technical schools. I suppose in the case of electronics, they could have taken this as a teaching oppurtunity on the use of transformers and resistors to make the old power sources work with the new equipment.

That's not the main point, however. In all the media for the adults and from all the guidance counselors in our high schools we had been constantly told that these community colleges would eliminate the need for industry to spend so much time and money training young new hires! The promise was that the school would "pre-train" them. They could be hired and with a minimum of orientation go straight to productive work!

That was the goal, although it was never going to happen. People tend to underestimate the breadth of skills and abilities required within a single trade or discipline. Compound this with the reality that different shops have often radically different processes to do the same thing, and it should have been obvious to anyone in the know that it was a fool's errand from the start.

We often get apprentices from provinces where they are able to write off one or two years of apprenticeship by attending a full time course for a year or so. The problem is that they have virtually no exposure to a lot of stuff that is done in the field. And you can't really blame the schools for the most part; the equipment and materials involved are cost prohibitive.

By the 90's as an outside salesman I began to hear a different story. 'Personnel' had evolved from a small department that tracked the paperwork for employees, making sure they got their holidays and the correct amount of pension when they retired into a much larger department that had taken over most of the hiring process, leaving the department heads and supervisors that would receive these new employees out of the hiring loop.

Yep. I think its a larger problem than the personnel department, though. It seems that more and more, decisions are being made by bean counters and MBAs that don't have the slightest understanding of the actual processes at work. I work in industrial construction, and I can tell you that you can very accurately predict the success of a project based on the backgrounds of the brass and the letters that follow their names.

We now have people lambasting companies for expecting too much of school graduates, when the whole affair started off with the schools convincing businesses of that very thing!

The companies wanted to push the cost of training on to the tax payers as much as the schools wanted to expand their enrollment. In many cases, they lobbied the government to foot the bill for training their workers.

[William Ashley]

It was hilarious. All sitting around painting their slogans that don't make sense.

"Welcome to the land of opportunity" (bustling big city, small campground... yeah. about that.)

"You can't own anything because it was never yours to possess" Wait, what?

I still support their ability to protest, however.

What can't you understand about the fact that ownership is a social concept that doesn't really exist. It is only by encultured concepts of ownership and social system that greed and possesiveness exist. While you can argue ownwership is a useful thing, you cannot argue it is static finite or neccesary.

It really doesn't exist. Laws are made to delegate ownership. But even the state delegates what can be owned or not, and reserves the right to take anything.

Ownership though for those freed from the confines of state recognize that use of material is delegated by needs of insuring the universal rights of humanity, not to acquire capital or due to claimation for which much of Canada and the US were claimed under unilateral proclaimation by a monarch or congress, it occupied and colonized land but that did not actuakly happen outside of fixed confines of statism, It is free and for all as all things are, guided only by judgement of what is reasonably required to provide for the needs of humanity.

These states do not recognize the universal rights of mankind and thus are criminal states.

Oppressprs and tyrants of the free - miltants resorting to forced enslavement of those who are free and non possessor.

They will burn in hell in time though the godless corrupted and unfaithful scum.

forcing their will on others for their own selfish greed.

Edited November 27, 2011 by William Ashley

[Tilter]

What can't you understand about the fact that ownership is a social concept that doesn't really exist. It is only by encultured concepts of ownership and social system that greed and possesiveness exist. While you can argue ownwership is a useful thing, you cannot argue it is static finite or neccesary.

It really doesn't exist. Laws are made to delegate ownership. But even the state delegates what can be owned or not, and reserves the right to take anything.

Ownership though for those freed from the confines of state recognize that use of material is delegated by needs of insuring the universal rights of humanity, not to acquire capital or due to claimation for which much of Canada and the US were claimed under unilateral proclaimation by a monarch or congress, it occupied and colonized land but that did not actuakly happen outside of fixed confines of statism, It is free and for all as all things are, guided only by judgement of what is reasonably required to provide for the needs of humanity.

These states do not recognize the universal rights of mankind and thus are criminal states.

Oppressprs and tyrants of the free - miltants resorting to forced enslavement of those who are free and non possessor.

They will burn in hell in time though the godless corrupted and unfaithful scum.

forcing their will on others for their own selfish greed.

The next time you want to exercise the concept of non-ownership, jump into a police car that the cop has left running & take off. I think you'll get a pretty quick lesson on ownership, theft of owned stuff & the inconvenience of a lack of ownership of a cell key.

I guess you could use the "stewardship" concept as an argument before the judge and, seeing how insane most Canadian judges are, you might get away with "Grand Theft Police Auto" :lol:

[jacee]

Occupy Toronto General Assembly:

AMAZING GRACE

Yesterday we witnessed yet again another accomplishment of this miraculous movement. The relationship that protestors and police built allowed both to realize an extraordinary result: a peaceful solution that cared for all people involved, and those bearing witness.

Yet again the movement embodied a new way of being together, a new way of meeting challenges, transcending threats and trusting other solutions to arise for the well being of all.

The police also co-created this miracle: their open hands and hearts, humour and humility, were seeds planted and cultivated to yield a far more constructive result. One police sergeant offered that many police officers shared the concerns raised by protestors. And while they had to execute orders, a creative solution was discovered, inspired by lessons learned from G20, but also initiating dialogue with protestors and others committed to peace to determine how to bring this profoundly complex issue to an honourable closure.

It is also true that politicians were equally remarkable. They chose a road less travelled. While other, far more constructive solutions to solve various challenges were available weeks ago they nonetheless chose to relate to the protestors in a way that created a remarkable result: peaceful resolution. A“middle way.” Commitment to the greater good trumped political expediency.

Remarkably, we remembered our shared humanity. Compassion, generosity and kindness flowed from that “re- membering.” A stunning accomplishment of this movement. Grace in action. Amazing grace.

Wow, incredibly generous message.

And an awesome accomplishment, a peaceful and respectful transition ... in the land of Mr.-Mayor-flips-the-bird-at-anyone, Rob Ford ... and the land of G20-police-who-respect-no-one.

A welcome change of outlook by politicians and police.

A great accomplishment by OCCUPY protesters, who are now holding a daily General Assembly in Nathan Philips Square (City Hall), and looking for indoor meeting and working space.

Edited November 27, 2011 by jacee

[cybercoma]

The next time you want to exercise the concept of non-ownership, jump into a police car that the cop has left running & take off. I think you'll get a pretty quick lesson on ownership, theft of owned stuff & the inconvenience of a lack of ownership of a cell key.

I guess you could use the "stewardship" concept as an argument before the judge and, seeing how insane most Canadian judges are, you might get away with "Grand Theft Police Auto" :lol:

You completely missed the point WA was making. He didn't say there's no such thing as ownership here and now. He's arguing that ownership is socially constructed, thus varying from time and place.

[cybercoma]

Occupy Toronto General Assembly:

AMAZING GRACE

Yesterday we witnessed yet again another accomplishment of this miraculous movement. The relationship that protestors and police built allowed both to realize an extraordinary result: a peaceful solution that cared for all people involved, and those bearing witness.

Yet again the movement embodied a new way of being together, a new way of meeting challenges, transcending threats and trusting other solutions to arise for the well being of all.

The police also co-created this miracle: their open hands and hearts, humour and humility, were seeds planted and cultivated to yield a far more constructive result. One police sergeant offered that many police officers shared the concerns raised by protestors. And while they had to execute orders, a creative solution was discovered, inspired by lessons learned from G20, but also initiating dialogue with protestors and others committed to peace to determine how to bring this profoundly complex issue to an honourable closure.

It is also true that politicians were equally remarkable. They chose a road less travelled. While other, far more constructive solutions to solve various challenges were available weeks ago they nonetheless chose to relate to the protestors in a way that created a remarkable result: peaceful resolution. A“middle way.” Commitment to the greater good trumped political expediency.

Remarkably, we remembered our shared humanity. Compassion, generosity and kindness flowed from that “re- membering.” A stunning accomplishment of this movement. Grace in action. Amazing grace.

Wow, incredibly generous message.

And an awesome accomplishment, a peaceful and respectful transition ... in the land of Mr.-Mayor-flips-the-bird-at-anyone, Rob Ford ... and the land of G20-police-who-respect-no-one.

A welcome change of outlook by politicians and police.

A great accomplishment by OCCUPY protesters.

You make no reference to what this resolution was, nor did you provide a link for the piece that you're quoting. Excuse me while I go punch that into Google to try and find out more about it.

[cybercoma]

Here it is: http://occupyto.org/2011/11/amazing-grace/

Evidently you just copied their entire statement, which doesn't actually tell us anything other than the fact that some sort of working relationship was reached between OccupyTO, the police and politicians.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

What can't you understand about the fact that ownership is a social concept that doesn't really exist. It is only by encultured concepts of ownership and social system that greed and possesiveness exist. While you can argue ownwership is a useful thing, you cannot argue it is static finite or neccesary.

That isn't even true. Animals demonstrate acts of ownership, forcing other animals away from their territory/food source. It's a natural phenomenon to protect one's interest in natural evolution. Except it was based on whoever was biggest/fastest/etc could lay claim, not whoever has the most money or purchased rights.

Those who speak out against ownership, are really just saying that everyone should be able to take any one elses possessions without reprimand.

Has society transformed the idea of ownership? Of course. Some of it is good, some of it is bad. I like that I can own my home and legally keep out drifters, for instance.

Edited November 27, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Bonam]

No thats not the problem at all. The problem is theres a systemic lack of junior positions, and companies would rather hire temporary foreign workers with 5-10 years experience or offshore the jobs, than hire Canadian grads who lack both skill and experience.move the jobs out.

Engineers can gain up to 2 years of experience via internships while completing their degrees. The smart ones take that opportunity, as it gives them a much stronger resume and also builds connections in industry before they're even out of school. All major university engineering programs in Canada offer co-op/internship opportunities in industry. Jobs that say they want 5 years of experience will often be quite happy to get someone with just 1-2 years, if they have the relevant skills.

Anyway, of course employers aren't gonna hire someone with no experience for a high salary when if can get someone just as useful for a fraction of the cost via an internship program. Frankly, as an engineer, you learn more in a month on the job than you do in 4 years of university classes. Part of getting an education for a job, including an engineering job, is making sure you have marketable skills.

Again, people need to not just go and blindly get degrees with the expectation that a job will get handed to them. They need to look at the opportunities offered in their department, such as co-op programs, and take advantage of them.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Bonam