NDP and Liberals merger?

[Topaz]

Since the death of Jack, that seems to be the media's center point and I can't see it happening and for the voters of Canada, I hope it doesn't happen. One only has to look that the USA and see they have only two parties and every four years it goes back and forth to these parties. This doesn't give the voting much choice when there are only two to pick from. I want 3 party choice but what are your thoughts?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

A third legitimate option would do the U.S. some good.

Even then, "grass roots" (don't really exist in the U.S. because of what follows) groups just get eaten by the bigger parties to prevent them from actually shaking up the political scene.

We need many ways for parties to form so that the bigger fish with more money don't take over and defile any Canadian grass roots movement.

Edited August 30, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Remiel]

I think the majority of Liberals have too much pride in their party to throw in the towel just yet.

Depending on how the Ontario election goes, it might be a much more likely scenario for the Liberals to try and absorb the Greens than merge with the NDP. That may be unlikely because the Greens too have pride in their international brand, but a compromise between Red and Green could pay dividends to real agendas of both parties: the Greens, the support of a much larger party to push environmentally friendly legislation, and the Liberals a forward looking policy area that they can " own " .

[Newfoundlander]

I'm not sure of all their views but I've read elsewhere that the most of the Liberals who are now left within caucus are more centrist, business friendly, blue grits.

While she's not an MP anymore Martha Hall Findlay has said she would not be a member of the "Liberal Democrats".

[jbg]

One only has to look that the USA and see they have only two parties and every four years it goes back and forth to these parties. This doesn't give the voting much choice when there are only two to pick from. I want 3 party choice but what are your thoughts?

In the U.S. (and in Canada to a lesser extent) voters don't like to "throw their votes away". This has limited N.D.P. support. Even the latest "Orange Crush" was largely the floundering of Quebec voters disaffected with the Bloc but not willing to take another "Belle Risque" with either of the federal parties that can actually win. The soft separatist vote cannot permanently reside with any national party. Most likely scenario would, rather than a merger, be the sliding of some English-speaking NDP'ers to the LPC, following in Rae's footsteps. I don't see a formal party merger. I see the N.D.P. as a renamed Bloc that runs candidates in non-Quebec ridings.

I'm not sure of all their views but I've read elsewhere that the most of the Liberals who are now left within caucus are more centrist, business friendly, blue grits.

While she's not an MP anymore Martha Hall Findlay has said she would not be a member of the "Liberal Democrats".

Where are the blue grits going to go then? To the CPC?

[Newfoundlander]

In the U.S. (and in Canada to a lesser extent) voters don't like to "throw their votes away". This has limited N.D.P. support. Even the latest "Orange Crush" was largely the floundering of Quebec voters disaffected with the Bloc but not willing to take another "Belle Risque" with either of the federal parties that can actually win. The soft separatist vote cannot permanently reside with any national party. Most likely scenario would, rather than a merger, be the sliding of some English-speaking NDP'ers to the LPC, following in Rae's footsteps. I don't see a formal party merger. I see the N.D.P. as a renamed Bloc that runs candidates in non-Quebec ridings.

Where are the blue grits going to go then? To the CPC?

They may, or they may leave politics.

[Remiel]

Liberals who would not want to be part of the " Liberal Democrats " might not necessarily be able to stomach the Conservatives. Dropping out of party politics is always an option...

[cybercoma]

It was Preston Manning's goal to polarize politics in this country, so that there were only two options. Uniting the Right has made it all but impossible for any other party to win. The Left has to unite. There is no other choice or they'll relegate themselves to fighting over opposition status until the Conservatives fall apart, which may be never.

[bush_cheney2004]

Does this mean that the Conservatives are now the "natural ruling party of Canada"? My how things have changed.

[jbg]

It was Preston Manning's goal to polarize politics in this country, so that there were only two options. Uniting the Right has made it all but impossible for any other party to win. The Left has to unite. There is no other choice or they'll relegate themselves to fighting over opposition status until the Conservatives fall apart, which may be never.

Does this mean that the Conservatives are now the "natural ruling party of Canada"? My how things have changed.

I htink Cybercoma pretty much has it right. I think the NDP will morph into a Bloc-lite and many of their English-speaking MP's and leaders will drift to the LPC.

[Smallc]

I htink Cybercoma pretty much has it right. I think the NDP will morph into a Bloc-lite and many of their English-speaking MP's and leaders will drift to the LPC.

I don't see that happening. The NDP is a federalist social democrat party. They aren't about to start advocating for separatism, which is really the only think that makes the Bloc unique.

[cybercoma]

I htink Cybercoma pretty much has it right. I think the NDP will morph into a Bloc-lite and many of their English-speaking MP's and leaders will drift to the LPC.

The NDP is anything but Bloc-lite. A party dominating Quebec does not make it a separatist party. Quebec has failed in both of its sovereignty referenda. The province itself isn't even separatist; it just contains separatist elements.

It's almost insulting to Quebec voters to tell them that no matter what party they vote for, they're separatists that deserve to be ignored by the rest of Canada. That sort of criticism is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Moonlight Graham]

Funny how less than a decade ago the Canadian Alliance and PC party were splitting the conservative vote vs the Liberals and then merged, and now the 2 major leftwing parties think they're splitting the vote vs the CPC and there is talk of a merge.

The NDP would be foolish to do such a thing now given their momentum. If i were an NDP'er i'd give it another federal election, or at least much later in the CPC's term (which has hardly really even begun). they could see more gains in popular support in the polls if they do ok as the Opposition. Obviously makes one wonder how far they'd have gone with Jack still alive and leading.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Moonlight Graham

[Newfoundlander]

The NDP have been around 50 years and the Liberals had no problem forming the government during the majority of that time. The Progressive Conservatives and the Canadian Alliance were one party that separated for a decade and then got back together, a different situation then the Liberals and NDP. As well I do think the NDP has the potential of becoming a Quebec Party. It's not easy representing Quebeckers and the rest of Canada, just ask Liberals and Mulroney.

If the Liberals would go back to being a more centrist party they would have the opportunity over the next few years to take support away from both the NDP and CPC.

[Black Dog]

I don't see a formal party merger. I see the N.D.P. as a renamed Bloc that runs candidates in non-Quebec ridings.

So, nothing at all like the Bloc, then. Alrighty.

[jbg]

I don't see that happening. The NDP is a federalist social democrat party. They aren't about to start advocating for separatism, which is really the only think that makes the Bloc unique.

So, nothing at all like the Bloc, then. Alrighty.

But most Quebec NDP ridings are former Bloc ridings, and many if not most of the NDP MP's lack a political history. While it is true that Quebec voted "non" by a narrow margin in 1995, that was largely due to immigrants and English-speaking Quebeckers. I suspect strongly that most NDP support migrated from the Bloc and they will have their hands full trying to accomodate both separatist elements in Quebec and federalist elements elsewhere. Just ask Mulroney, Trudeau and Chretien.

[Smallc]

But most Quebec NDP ridings are former Bloc ridings,

So? Most Bloc ridings are former PC ridings. Most PC ridings were former Liberal ridings. I don't really care what you suspect anyway. Anglophones and Allophones don't make up 50% of the population (and a clear question never would have been that close - people are stupid, no matter which language they speak), so there has to be some Francophone Quebecers that are attached enough to Canada to vote non.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Smallc

[Black Dog]

But most Quebec NDP ridings are former Bloc ridings, and many if not most of the NDP MP's lack a political history.

So what does that factoid have to do with the NDP's direction?

While it is true that Quebec voted "non" by a narrow margin in 1995, that was largely due to immigrants and English-speaking Quebeckers.

The term is "money and the ethnic vote". In any case, 1995 was a long time ago: support for sovereignty has pretty much flatlined.

I suspect strongly that most NDP support migrated from the Bloc and they will have their hands full trying to accomodate both separatist elements in Quebec and federalist elements elsewhere. Just ask Mulroney, Trudeau and Chretien.

Have you considered the possibility that Bloc voters who went NDP may have supported the former for reasons other than the issue of separatism?

[jbg]

So? Most Bloc ridings are former PC ridings. Most PC ridings were former Liberal ridings. I don't really care what you suspect anyway. Anglophones and Allophones don't make up 50% of the population (and a clear question never would have been that close - people are stupid, no matter which language they speak), so there has to be some Francophone Quebecers that are attached enough to Canada to vote non.

I'm quite sure there were plenty of Francophone "non" voters. Those with substantial business interests at stake, for example.

[jbg]

Have you considered the possibility that Bloc voters who went NDP may have supported the former for reasons other than the issue of separatism?

Voting with a party with no chance of forming a government and a very slim chance of being part of one would be rank stupidity otherwise.

[Black Dog]

Voting with a party with no chance of forming a government and a very slim chance of being part of one would be rank stupidity otherwise.

So a failure of imagination on your part, then.

[jbg]

So a failure of imagination on your part, then.

Do you remember what happened when the Bloc was to be even an ex officio part of the December 2008 coalition?

[Black Dog]

Do you remember what happened when the Bloc was to be even an ex officio part of the December 2008 coalition?

Yes. And?

[jbg]

Do you remember what happened when the Bloc was to be even an ex officio part of the December 2008 coalition?

Yes. And?

The point is that it would take a rather vivid imagination to see the Bloc anywhere near government.

[PIK]

IMO It would be foolish for the NDP to even think of a merger, because over time the big red machine would just swallow up the NDP and if they called themselves liberal democrats, IMO the democract part of the name would simply disappear.