Thorn Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) There are two aspects of the moderation here I'd like to address. Both of which, I believe, stand in the way of this forum attaining real success, by which I mean broader exposure and more membership. The first is derived from the English expression from the last century which says that "Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done." No one would think of telling people they have no right to know if someone was convicted of a crime, or what their punishment was. The community needs to see what is being done so it can judge whether the punishment fits the crime, whether justice is done, in other words. In MapleLeaf what passes for justice is done secretly. The community does not know who has been punished or why, or what the punishment is. Thus the community has no means of determining whether justice is being done, or whether it's one-sided and unfair to one or another group or person. The second aspect of the moderation here which I find problematic is the wide divergence between the rules, as written, and the behaviour, as evidenced through daily reading of the postings here. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you probably can't find any political topic on this forum that doesn't have a dozen violations of the written rules. To use a hockey analogy, everyone knows what the rules are of hockey. They're written in plain black and white. But those aren't the 'real' rules. The real rules are whatever the referee chooses to call in a given game. Sometimes the rules are strictly enforced. Sometimes, the ref puts away his whistle and ignores virtually everything. That's okay, though. The players can adapt to either. What the players really, REALLY hate, though, is a ref who lets everything go, and then inexplicably decides to call something late in the game that he's ignored a dozen times already. And not just call it, but throw the player out of the game. Not only can this be seen as injustice but the rest of the community learns nothing from it. The rest of the community has no means of learning from that example, or of gleaning what the 'real' rules are, and so amend their own behaviour. Edited August 23, 2011 by Thorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Anthony Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 In MapleLeaf what passes for justice is done secretly. The community does not know who has been punished or why, or what the punishment is. Correct. That is the way things are done here. Always was and there are no plans to change that. The second aspect of the moderation here which I find problematic is the wide divergence between the rules, as written, and the behaviour, as evidenced through daily reading of the postings here. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you probably can't find any political topic on this forum that doesn't have a dozen violations of the written rules. Such is life. Just focus on following the forum rules and guidelines yourself. Ignore those who do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorn Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) Correct. That is the way things are done here. Always was and there are no plans to change that. Just for argument's sake, and after all, isn't that why we're all here? Because we like to argue about things? What would be the drawbacks of making punishments, and the violation of the rules which caused them, publicly known? I can think of immediate benefits. Just focus on following the forum rules and guidelines yourself. Ignore those who do not. That's extremely difficult given the daily provocation by people who do not, and who seem to get away with it. It's like telling a hockey player who keeps getting tripped, slashed and elbowed to not retaliate, even though everyone else is doing it and the referee has his whistle in his pocket. So far the only solution I've found is to put the worst of those who habitually sneer, mock and insult into my ignore file, but given the regular behavior here I have a feeling that eventually there'll be almost no point in bothering to read this forum as EVERYONE will be in my ignore file. Edited August 23, 2011 by Thorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Just for argument's sake, and after all, isn't that why we're all here? Because we like to argue about things? ... I can think of immediate benefits. I have been on boards like this, and it's a descent into hell. The board ends up with many threads debating the merits of each case - which is not what the mods want the board to be. That's extremely difficult given the daily provocation by people who do not, and who seem to get away with it. It's like telling a hockey player who keeps getting tripped, slashed and elbowed to not retaliate, even though everyone else is doing it and the referee has his whistle in his pocket. So far the only solution I've found is to put the worst of those who habitually sneer, mock and insult into my ignore file, but given the regular behavior here I have a feeling that eventually there'll be almost no point in bothering to read this forum as EVERYONE will be in my ignore file. Yes, you should ignore them - or report the post. If everyone is in your ignore file, then ... well ... what do you think would be the root cause of that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 While Thorn and I disagree on some things, I agree with him here. members should know when someone has broken the rules such that they are banned, because it reminds us that this place is being monitored somehow. If you think it results in a debate about the merits of said banning, just make the thread so it can't be responded to. IE lock it. We should not ignore those who break the forum rules, we should report them. Recently I reported a problem and never heard back. It would be better if I got a response that the report was received and is being reviews, else I wonder if it matters to make a report at all, maybe no one's listening and reporting is a waste of time? Not that I want to shut down debate by being too heavy-handed, but the habitual abusers who offer nothing else do get a bit tiresome. Just my two centavos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum Admin Greg Posted August 23, 2011 Forum Admin Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 There are two aspects of the moderation here I'd like to address. Both of which, I believe, stand in the way of this forum attaining real success, by which I mean broader exposure and more membership. The measure of success is different for everyone and personally, I never wanted the forums at Mapleleafweb to be the most popular or have the largest membership. A successful forum, in my opinion, is one that is full of diverse opinions and individuals who treat each other with respect. No one would think of telling people they have no right to know if someone was convicted of a crime, or what their punishment was. The community needs to see what is being done so it can judge whether the punishment fits the crime, whether justice is done, in other words. In MapleLeaf what passes for justice is done secretly. The community does not know who has been punished or why, or what the punishment is. Thus the community has no means of determining whether justice is being done, or whether it's one-sided and unfair to one or another group or person. Charles and I never do anything in secret, we just don't respond to individual complaints or reports in public -- there is a big difference. If you request a explanation for an action (or perceived inaction), Charles and I will always respond to your request personally. We will not however, discuss any specific moderation action publicly. The second aspect of the moderation here which I find problematic is the wide divergence between the rules, as written, and the behaviour, as evidenced through daily reading of the postings here. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you probably can't find any political topic on this forum that doesn't have a dozen violations of the written rules. Plenty of reports are made everyday, and every single one of them is reviewed and an action (if deemed necessary) is taken. Not all reports result in a banning or suspension (very few, actually), but we do stay on top of all the reports that are made. What would be the drawbacks of making punishments, and the violation of the rules which caused them, publicly known? As Micheal points out above - constant and unending groveling and belly-aching over every single moderator action. members should know when someone has broken the rules such that they are banned, because it reminds us that this place is being monitored somehow. If you think it results in a debate about the merits of said banning, just make the thread so it can't be responded to. IE lock it. Anyone who is banned has their membership group changed to Banned. You can see this by viewing their profile. Recently I reported a problem and never heard back. It would be better if I got a response that the report was received and is being reviews, else I wonder if it matters to make a report at all, maybe no one's listening and reporting is a waste of time? In my opinion, the proof is in the pudding... The fact that the forums is still operating and producing a high level of debate is the true measure of success. As volunteers, you have to understand that our time is valuable and SHORT. Moderation time is better spent reviewing and acting upon the reports and reviewing the existing forum threads and postings, not necessarily responding to every submitter of those reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I would humbly like to ask why M.Dancer was banned. He's just a "mocker"...some newbs have problems with this sort of forum animal (heh...I should know...both Dancer and I have done time in the Mapleleaf cooler together). Anyways...he has friends here who'd like to know. Can you explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) Anyone who's spent any time on this board can see that people aren't banned on a whim - not by a long shot; they are clearly warned - repeatedly from my observation (ie: posts/comments those involved have made) - and they then can choose to act accordingly or to continue along the same line that got them into trouble. It's a matter of personal responsibility, not an arbitrary decision, from what I can see. As for not announcing the reason for a ban, I understand that people are going to feel differently about it, but I believe it should remain a private matter - between the admin. and the person who was banned - first and foremost because the person banned is no longer able to post, and therefore should not be subjected to being discussed - and secondly, because admin. shouldn't be expected to have to explain the history to us. As already stated, they are volunteers, and their time is limited. Edited August 23, 2011 by American Woman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I would humbly like to ask why M.Dancer was banned. He's just a "mocker"...some newbs have problems with this sort of forum animal (heh...I should know...both Dancer and I have done time in the Mapleleaf cooler together). Anyways...he has friends here who'd like to know. Can you explain? I would humbly like to ask, why are you NOT banned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Dancer was banned, ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorn Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Anyone who's spent any time on this board can see that people aren't banned on a whim How is it possible for you to know that when you don't know who was banned or why? I mean, honestly! - not by a long shot; they are clearly warned - repeatedly And again, how can you possibly know they ever got even one single warning before being suspended or banned? The moderators have made no such claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorn Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I have been on boards like this, and it's a descent into hell. The board ends up with many threads debating the merits of each case - which is not what the mods want the board to be. As has already been pointed out that's very easy to remedy. You don't get to argue with your newspaper about sentences at court, though people can discuss it, and I don't find that a 'descent into hell'. There's no requirement that anyone answer or justify what they've done, merely make the notice so that people can read it and see that doing this action results in that punishment, etc. If everyone is in your ignore file, then ... well ... what do you think would be the root cause of that ? Poor moderation policy, which results in everyone hurling insults on a constant basis -- which is pretty much what exists here. There are a few regulars who do this the most, but then they provoke others to respond in kind and the tone of the board plunges so that it becomes general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 How is it possible for you to know that when you don't know who was banned or why? I mean, honestly! Of course I know who was banned - it says "banned" instead of "member" on their profile. Honestly. And again, how can you possibly know they ever got even one single warning before being suspended or banned? I noticed you cut short my quote - the part of the quote that explains how I know. The moderators have made no such claim. Here's a sampling of posts that have been made by the administrator ...... As a general rule, I do not discuss the reasons for disciplinary actions publicly in the forums. However, Charles and I give all members the benefit of the doubt when it comes to any type of disciplinary actions. Fair warning is always given. I want to clarify the rules on insults. Lately a few forum members have resorted to calling other forum members "racists" and or "bigots" in response to certain opinions. Use of either of these terms in relation to another forum member will be considered an insult and a warning will be issued. [...] [...] Read the rules and guidelines, if you break one of those rules repeatedly and you ignore the warnings, you will be banned. No one, besides spammers or the extremely belligerent, are banned or suspended without warning. If you find yourself suspended or banned, its your own fault. I don't want to do it, actually, I hate do it - but i often have no choice. The rules that you agreed to upon registration also state: People who have a history of antagonistic behaviour will be treated more harshly than those who do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I don't find that a 'descent into hell'. Maybe you haven't been on a forum where such discussions take up a large percentage of the posts. Anyway, the point is moot - as Greg stated the policies will either produce a better forum or they won't. I think that they do in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I asked on my status update why M.Dancer was banned because I thought whatever he said/did was posted on the forum. But it seems like it isn't, so i accept that since whatever offense happened out of the public eye of the forum posts and then it's not really our business to know, that's between M.Dancer and the admins now i guess. Yes there would be a benefit of people knowing because it would he would be made an example of what not to do, but we all know he was banned anyways so that in itself sends the message that the admins are still on top of things. As AW said, its doubtful he was banned on a whim because we all get away with A LOT around here in terms of rude/disrespectful posts. And we all saw how Lictor was given a long leash before he said bye-bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) M.Dancer has been banned? Say it ain't so, Joe...he was like a brother mocker to me, keeping me at the top of my game. Oh what shall I do? At least DOP is still around, and a few other souls that mock in the finest tradition of Voltaire. For our new rookie pup who wishes to just waltz right in here and change how the forum is moderated in the darkest of secrecy, I will volunteer my own wrist slap of one week's suspension for graphically comparing Heather Mallick to a pile of dog dookey. Well worth the punishment I must say! I guess to show my support for Dancer there is but one thing to do.....resign as a member of this fine establishment. Yea...that's what I shall do. PSYCHE! Edited August 23, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorn Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Yes there would be a benefit of people knowing because it would he would be made an example of what not to do, but we all know he was banned anyways so that in itself sends the message that the admins are still on top of things. As AW said, its doubtful he was banned on a whim because we all get away with A LOT around here in terms of rude/disrespectful posts. And we all saw how Lictor was given a long leash before he said bye-bye. The guy had 21,000 posts, and yes, got away with a lot. We all get away with a lot which is against the rules. So what gets you suspended or banned? Is it that you do something, get a slap on the wrist, and after a while they decide you've done it one too many times and ban you? How many times do you get to say a word or whatever before you get banned or suspended? What are the words? Again, as you say, people get away with a lot, constantly, every day. That, to me, doesn't say the admins are 'on top of things'. There are people on this site who have been 'getting away with a lot' for years, apparently. How much is too much? This is what I mean. You can't just go by what's written in the rules since obviously not everything is being enforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorn Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) Of course I know who was banned - it says "banned" instead of "member" on their profile. Honestly. And you do a run-through of all the members regularly to see which ones are banned? How would you even notice it says banned next to his post unless you're reading an old post and happen to notice that? Here's a sampling of posts that have been made by the administrator ...... Three and four year old posts? Is that it? That doesn't seem to indicate there are any regular interventions in things to warn what's being done wrong. The rules that you agreed to upon registration also state: People who have a history of antagonistic behaviour will be treated more harshly than those who do not. Doesn't seem to have affected a number of well-known posters here who pretty consistently insult, flame and troll people. Edited August 23, 2011 by Thorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I would humbly like to ask, why are you NOT banned Did you finish polishing my car yet? Chop, chop...busy tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 Did you finish polishing my car yet? Chop, chop...busy tonight. Yup, used a special polish. My own blend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 ....There are people on this site who have been 'getting away with a lot' for years, apparently. How much is too much? This is what I mean. You can't just go by what's written in the rules since obviously not everything is being enforced. Well how would you know after only 175 posts? Stick around for a while and find out before whining about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 For a minute I thought perhaps this must be someone who was once banned and is now sneaking back, still bitter at the mods. But that couldn't possibly be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 Yup, used a special polish. My own blend... Hmmmm...your hand. Plus, wrong car! Yah just can't hire good help these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 M.Dancer has been banned? Say it ain't so, Joe...he was like a brother mocker to me, keeping me at the top of my game. Oh what shall I do? At least DOP is still around, and a few other souls that mock in the finest tradition of Voltaire. I find it sad...Dancer was/is a wealth of information on various subjects. Hitting the report button is such a loser thing to do. The same folks probably make use of HRCs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 I find it sad...Dancer was/is a wealth of information on various subjects. Hitting the report button is such a loser thing to do. The same folks probably make use of HRCs... He was no dummy, but didn't know how to behave himself. Basically he had mental problems. He must have been a small man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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