eyeball Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 O.K. I give up. What alternatives do you or anyone see? Just let Egypt become a failed Islamofascist state too? What do you mean let it? If/when Egypt goes the way of Iran it'll be further evidence that the West's support for dictatorships in the Muslim world is the surest way of creating Islamofascist states there. At what point does one give up pointing this out? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
GWiz Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 O.K. I give up. What alternatives do you or anyone see? Just let Egypt become a failed Islamofascist state too? qué se•rá, se•rá Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Jack Weber Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 What do you mean let it? If/when Egypt goes the way of Iran it'll be further evidence that the West's support for dictatorships in the Muslim world is the surest way of creating Islamofascist states there. At what point does one give up pointing this out? Sadly,you're right... This is "blowback" come to life... Ya' think these people would have learned after supporting a Fascist thug like Fulgencio Batista for years and getting a Communist Revolution for their troubles... It's like they never learn from being shortsighted in their foreign policy initiatives... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jonsa Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/02/02/game_over_the_chance_for_democracy_in_egypt_is_lost An interesting article... Sadly,one I agree with wholeheartedly... Considering that despite the optics, Egypt's strong men have all been military, military courts trump civil courts, the military top brass wallow in perks, and the bureaucrats have their jobs at the pleasure of the military. This niave notion that with the wave of a wand, the entire power status quo could be swept aside and replaced by "democracy" ignores realpolitik. The military will not allow the country to fall into chaos. The opposition is almost non-existent thanks to the repression of Mubarak et al. The idea that El Baradei could step into the power vacuum if Mubharak steps down is also pretty absurd. The guy screwed up his UN job and lets face it, the UN is where you go, not where you come from. And the army would NEVER let MB "seize" power like the Ayatollah did in Iran. The ONLY hope for democracy in Egypt is through transition supported of the military. Political opposition parties need time to form and clearly articulate their vision/platforms. Any number of pols and bureaucrats need to be "replaced" as do a bevy of judges and prosecutors. The wholesale trashing existing government is never a good idea. Iran is a great example and even in Iraq, firing all the baathists and disbanding the army was a GINORMOUS arrogant and ignorant mistake (hindsight is always 20/20). Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Considering that despite the optics, Egypt's strong men have all been military, military courts trump civil courts, the military top brass wallow in perks, and the bureaucrats have their jobs at the pleasure of the military. This niave notion that with the wave of a wand, the entire power status quo could be swept aside and replaced by "democracy" ignores realpolitik. The military will not allow the country to fall into chaos. The opposition is almost non-existent thanks to the repression of Mubarak et al. The idea that El Baradei could step into the power vacuum if Mubharak steps down is also pretty absurd. The guy screwed up his UN job and lets face it, the UN is where you go, not where you come from. And the army would NEVER let MB "seize" power like the Ayatollah did in Iran. The ONLY hope for democracy in Egypt is through transition supported of the military. Political opposition parties need time to form and clearly articulate their vision/platforms. Any number of pols and bureaucrats need to be "replaced" as do a bevy of judges and prosecutors. The wholesale trashing existing government is never a good idea. Iran is a great example and even in Iraq, firing all the baathists and disbanding the army was a GINORMOUS arrogant and ignorant mistake (hindsight is always 20/20). Spot on!!! I've been saying this for a while... There will be no democracy in Egypt (or Tunisia...or Yemen) because there is no frame work to allow democracy to flourish in any of those countries.There are two options in any and all of these cases. 1.Put a smiley face on essentially another propped up Fascist dictatorship and hope it keeps the barbarians at bay! 2.Have a real free and fair election and let the chips fall where they may.This cannot be allowed to happen for obvious reasons. And I agree with you about El Baradei completely...He's a little too convenient an option,don't ya' think? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GWiz Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Considering that despite the optics, Egypt's strong men have all been military, military courts trump civil courts, the military top brass wallow in perks, and the bureaucrats have their jobs at the pleasure of the military. This niave notion that with the wave of a wand, the entire power status quo could be swept aside and replaced by "democracy" ignores realpolitik. The military will not allow the country to fall into chaos. The opposition is almost non-existent thanks to the repression of Mubarak et al. The idea that El Baradei could step into the power vacuum if Mubharak steps down is also pretty absurd. The guy screwed up his UN job and lets face it, the UN is where you go, not where you come from. And the army would NEVER let MB "seize" power like the Ayatollah did in Iran. The ONLY hope for democracy in Egypt is through transition supported of the military. Political opposition parties need time to form and clearly articulate their vision/platforms. Any number of pols and bureaucrats need to be "replaced" as do a bevy of judges and prosecutors. The wholesale trashing existing government is never a good idea. Iran is a great example and even in Iraq, firing all the baathists and disbanding the army was a GINORMOUS arrogant and ignorant mistake (hindsight is always 20/20). Well put... This is certainly one of the better posts I've seen and corresponds quite nicely with my view about the matters at hand in Egypt as I've posted throughout this thread... Good post... As the Egyptian Military goes so does Egypt... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
eyeball Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Well put... This is certainly one of the better posts I've seen and corresponds quite nicely with my view about the matters at hand in Egypt as I've posted throughout this thread... Good post... As the Egyptian Military goes so does Egypt... ...and as the American taxpayer/borrower goes so goes the Egyptian military. It's been thousands of years since "Egyptians" have called their own shots without some distant puppet-master pulling the strings. A true pluralistic democracy and opposition will remain non-existent in Egypt until such time as it can evolve there on it's own. Until then it will continue to go where outsiders tell it to and for the foreseeable future those outsiders be Americans. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 ...and as the American taxpayer/borrower goes so goes the Egyptian military. It's been thousands of years since "Egyptians" have called their own shots without some distant puppet-master pulling the strings. A true pluralistic democracy and opposition will remain non-existent in Egypt until such time as it can evolve there on it's own. This is not true at all...in order to survive under Mubarak, Egyptians have already learned what it means to survive with several competing political interests....it is already "plural". It is not some backwater needing plastic UN monitored lock boxes at the polls. Democracy will "evolve" there soon, because it should have already happened years ago. Until then it will continue to go where outsiders tell it to and for the foreseeable future those outsiders be Americans. No, it will continue to go where the money is, just like Canada. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 This is not true at all...in order to survive under Mubarak, Egyptians have already learned what it means to survive with several competing political interests....it is already "plural". It is not some backwater needing plastic UN monitored lock boxes at the polls. Democracy will "evolve" there soon, because it should have already happened years ago. No, it will continue to go where the money is, just like Canada. You know my friend, I hate it when I have to AGREE with you... Stop that! Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
jbg Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 ...and as the American taxpayer/borrower goes so goes the Egyptian military. It's been thousands of years since "Egyptians" have called their own shots without some distant puppet-master pulling the strings. A true pluralistic democracy and opposition will remain non-existent in Egypt until such time as it can evolve there on it's own.Would one Pharaoh, or the invading Arab Muslim armies, count for your purposes as the "Egyptians....call(ing) their own shots"? Until then it will continue to go where outsiders tell it to and for the foreseeable future those outsiders be Americans. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Oleg Bach Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 OK...but that would include defense contractors like General Dynamics Canada (headquarters in Ottawa): http://www.gdcanada.com/content/detail.cfm?acronym=locations Sorry, but reality kinda sucks that way. The average Canadian does not really benefit from General Dynamics..war is a game for the sneaky privleded..for those that are so rich they are beyond rich...it's all about releaving boredom...and some kinky thrill from having people die because of your indirect actions...I can imagine some huge investment banker type..who secretly deals in "war supplies" - when the body counts come in from both sides these monsters are gleeful...I imagine what they must think - "I killed a bunch of towel heads with out lifting a finger...they were toxic waste anyway - and besides they are no use to me because they are non-compliant and defiant to my will" ----------THAT just about sums up the mentality of all war lords...west and east. It just pisses me off when I see the stupid mobs with their strained expressions being played like violins by evil emotionless men in high dark places...You would think that the average person would figure out that violence only benefits a tiny few...and the rest of us are made dupe. Quote
eyeball Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Would one Pharaoh, or the invading Arab Muslim armies, count for your purposes as the "Egyptians....call(ing) their own shots"? I suppose a Pharaoh would but I doubt there was anything pluralistic about their rule. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Oleg Bach Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 I suppose a Pharaoh would but I doubt there was anything pluralistic about their rule. The reason that Egypt as an empire lasted for 7000 years is because of the concept of Mhate'(not sure of the spelling) - It was about universal benevolence...where a parent would love the child with all their heart and the child would love the parent with the same dedication and loyality as a parent would...It was truely the begining of Christianity....When the father of Jesus lived in Egypt he surely picked up this code of maintining a civilization....America at best might last another 50 years as compared to Egypts 7000...There is nothing wrong with a Pharaoh's rule or the rule of a king or even a dictator...the ruler must truely love his people...at present the administration in Egypt have lost the idea of public service and love...so the glue that keeps things together has now desolved - when love leaves - so does all structure and law. Quote
GWiz Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 The reason that Egypt as an empire lasted for 7000 years is because of the concept of Mhate'(not sure of the spelling) - It was about universal benevolence...where a parent would love the child with all their heart and the child would love the parent with the same dedication and loyality as a parent would...It was truely the begining of Christianity....When the father of Jesus lived in Egypt he surely picked up this code of maintining a civilization....America at best might last another 50 years as compared to Egypts 7000...There is nothing wrong with a Pharaoh's rule or the rule of a king or even a dictator...the ruler must truely love his people...at present the administration in Egypt have lost the idea of public service and love...so the glue that keeps things together has now desolved - when love leaves - so does all structure and law. Ahhh yes, the BENEVOLENT Dictator, I totally agree, it's easily the BEST form of Government, except for this one FLAW... In HUMANS; POWER corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely... That's the simple fact that has been the "Big Problem" throughout human history... The more one has, power and money and in most cases money is power, the more one wants... Those few in History that didn't "fit" this mold were quickly eliminated by those that did... SIMPLE HUMAN GREED is what it's all about, period... Well THAT, and of course HUMANITY'S main trait - "Man's inhumanity (a misnomer if there was one) to (their fellow) man... Sure glad I'm not human... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 The average Canadian does not really benefit from General Dynamics... Hi Oleg ...then why do "average Canadians" work there and at GD's supplier plants? Maybe...just maybe...it's the money! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GostHacked Posted February 7, 2011 Author Report Posted February 7, 2011 Hi Oleg ...then why do "average Canadians" work there and at GD's supplier plants? Maybe...just maybe...it's the money! Something called globalization . . . . . . . Quote
GWiz Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 ...and as the American taxpayer/borrower goes so goes the Egyptian military. It's been thousands of years since "Egyptians" have called their own shots without some distant puppet-master pulling the strings. A true pluralistic democracy and opposition will remain non-existent in Egypt until such time as it can evolve there on it's own. Until then it will continue to go where outsiders tell it to and for the foreseeable future those outsiders be Americans. You are wrong... In fact probably the opposite is true (in Recent History), at least for the most part... Look for yourself... Nasser - Sadat - Mubarak Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Shady Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Bush and his neocon bretheren tried to impose their version of democracy at the barrel of a gun. One need only look to Iraq to see the folly of such a policy. Really? Why? Why not Germany or Japan? Quote
Rue Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) Hi Oleg ...then why do "average Canadians" work there and at GD's supplier plants? Maybe...just maybe...it's the money! I feel a sort of Oleg Bachian perception coming over me......economic interaction as we are all aware or at least should be Oleg is inter-related. I may not directly get profit from General Dynamics but indirectly the employees paid by it spend money which ripples into the economic market and makes its way as taxes into the government services and benefits I do receive. The reality is all of us, every single friggin last one of us has some benefit flowing from the military industrial complex. Its just a fact of life. Now we could transform those activities if we wanted but at this point the powers that be do not want to and those powers are not conspiring CIA agents, just executive shmoes with hemmeroids and sagging breasts trying to assure their little department is doing what it was told to so they get their bonus and are not fired. The entire world is a series of never ending cubes each with a titular head barking at others to meet a quota. You think someone could afford to get a breast lift. Its all inter-connected so Bush when you call me a whore and in it for the money I say, well yes I find myself screwed by many departments some governmental, others non governmental. Should I blame you the entire world appears fixated on missiles, satellites, and suvs? No. We are all part of it. Just some of us still think of ourselves as crisp, clean virgins. Interesting but those same missile creators make our virgins' fridges, stoves, iphones, cars. That I call gloablization-the fact that all our economies are inter-dependent and at the whim of the oil and military industrial complexes. Transforminge economic activity necessarily threatens to put the very politicians and executives out of power who have it. Thus the resistance. It aint rocket science, just rocket development. Edited February 7, 2011 by Rue Quote
pinko Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Really? Why? Why not Germany or Japan? The Bush Doctrine speaks for itself long after Dumbya left office. Quote
GWiz Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 I feel a sort of Oleg Bachian perception coming over me......economic interaction as we are all aware or at least should be Oleg is inter-related. I may not directly get profit from General Dynamics but indirectly the employees paid by it spend money which ripples into the economic market and makes its way as taxes into the government services and benefits I do receive. The reality is all of us, every single friggin last one of us has some benefit flowing from the military industrial complex. Its just a fact of life. Now we could transform those activities if we wanted but at this point the powers that be do not want to and those powers are not conspiring CIA agents, just executive shmoes with hemmeroids and sagging breasts trying to assure their little department is doing what it was told to so they get their bonus and are not fired. The entire world is a series of never ending cubes each with a titular head barking at others to meet a quota. You think someone could afford to get a breast lift. Its all inter-connected so Bush when you call me a whore and in it for the money I say, well yes I find myself screwed by many departments some governmental, others non governmental. Should I blame you the entire world appears fixated on missiles, satellites, and suvs? No. We are all part of it. Just some of us still think of ourselves as crisp, clean virgins. Interesting but those same missile creators make our virgins' fridges, stoves, iphones, cars. That I call gloablization-the fact that all our economies are inter-dependent and at the whim of the oil and military industrial complexes. Transforminge economic activity necessarily threatens to put the very politicians and executives out of power who have it. Thus the resistance. It aint rocket science, just rocket development. WooHOO, EXCELLENT POST! Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Black Dog Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Really? Why? Why not Germany or Japan? For a lot of reasons that would be pretty obvious to people who, you know, read. Quote
dre Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Precisely... The Crypto-Fascist Chinese we've sold our economy and standard of living out to in the name of "Free Markets" and "Economic Progress"... Oh dont be so hard on the globalists! Sure, the long term impact on our economy will be a disaster, but you can buy shitty tennis shoes for $5 Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bjre Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Precisely... The Crypto-Fascist Chinese we've sold our economy and standard of living out to in the name of "Free Markets" and "Economic Progress"... What you love is just sell the "freedom" and "democracy" to others and keep the wealth with you own, so that other countries can all live like those poor African democracy countries, that have no freedom but be slaves to work, and your banks take whatever they created to your nation, so that you need not work and just need to sing a freedom song and laugh at them. When Chinese does opposite and succeed, you feel jealous and uncomfortable. Edited February 8, 2011 by bjre Quote "The more laws, the less freedom" -- bjre "There are so many laws that nearly everybody breaks some, even when you just stay at home do nothing, the only question left is how thugs can use laws to attack you" -- bjre "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson
Rue Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) What you love is just sell the "freedom" and "democracy" to others and keep the wealth with you own, so that other countries can all live like those poor African democracy countries, that have no freedom but be slaves to work, and your banks take whatever they created to your nation, so that you need not work and just need to sing a freedom song and laugh at them. When Chinese does opposite and succeed, you feel jealous and uncomfortable. My but we are accusatory. I doubt the person you are addressing himself personally is in democracy sales. Maybe aluminum siding or roof shingles or hemmeroid ointment though. See my point? He doesn't wake up every morning engaging in what you accuse any more then you do. He didn't create the inter-connected economies. He/she is like you and me just one dot in a sea of sand so your turning him/her into a scapegoat for the failures of others is a bit absurd. He/she is no more guilty than you are unless of course you are telling me you are a pristine 3rd world virgin victim. Problem is when we get righteous and point the finger at others as whores we forget the stains on our own pants are still visible. Your portrayal of Africans by the way is quite patronizing not that someone as liberal and tolerant as you would realize. Why didn't you just refer to them as poor wretched savages. How compassionate of you. Wait I know, you cry every time you see a World Vision commercial. Wait don't tell me either, some of your best friends are savages and you send money to Oxfam. Got news for you, your simplistic, patronizing depicture of Africans is bloody racist. What do you think these people are the helpless victims you portray them as? Clearly you do not know all Africans you just assume though you can write them all off as victims. There are many successful Africans who are independent and making quality lives for themselves and others. Get real. Africa is full of may kinds of people of which some are corupt, sociopathic politicians who choose to rape and plunder their own people. Yes it is a tragedy people starve and are trapped in poverty. Yes foreign investors and financial interests tied to oil,diamonds, natural resources, have a vested financial interest but what about the stooges they find who have no problem turning on their own people? Do you care to just ignore that? Also would you have us believe you do not put your money in a bank or buy a product from someone inter-related to an unethical business? Really now. Oh wait you want to tell me Robert Mugabi or Moe Ghaddafi are victims? The world is far more complex then you give it credit for with your simplistic good v.s. bad, black v. white concepts. In reality poverty, injustice is not simply the creation of some white Westerner and no the person you accuse of owning banks does not or are you suggesting he is one of those you know who's who own banks and produce Hollywood movies and hang out with Oleg Bach and other rich people? (Oleg I get you everytime! I will make you famous Oleg with my tributes!) However we see your agenda. When you see it done by Chinese you apologize and use the double standard that if a Westerner does it, its evil, but if a Chinese communist does it, its fine, its only fair.Uh no. Either its wrong for all or its wrong for none. The relativist arguement you try poo poo works like this-it states, if you want to hold the world to a high standard, then don't just select a scapegoat you will hold to your standard and look the other way when others commmit evil. No more no less. It doesn't mean we have a double standard and people you find acceptable can act evil because they are entitled to since you feel others do. That is precisely why the cantankerous conservatives roll their eyes at stereotype liberals like you. They find your righteousness absurd. They argue its not evil you are against, just the fact you aren't in on it. In the real world I would contend victims are also oppressors and oppressors are also victims-the two are not conveniently divided and attached and that is what makes conflicts so difficult to resolve-the cycle of beater and beaten constantly goes back and forth the longer the conflict between the 2 or more parties is. The roles become interchangeable the longer the cycle of conflict goes on. At any given arbitrary point in time the vanquished become conquerors and vice versa often at the same time. Edited February 9, 2011 by Rue Quote
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