What is the logic in training the Afghan troops?

[Moonlight Graham]

Canada and NATO are training the Afghan army, for many reasons of course, but supposedly primarily to defend the new Afghan gov't from the Taliban. However, if most of the most powerful nations in the world with the most advanced military tech in the world are basically at a stalemate vs the Taliban and cannot defeat them, exactly what chance does a rag-tag group of Afghan soldiers (no matter how well-trained, and whom will have nowhere near the military tech of NATO) have to defend the country/gov't against the Taliban over the long-term?

The only chance i see this new "army" being successful vs Taliban attacks is the fact that many of the insurgents fighting NATO are not doing so to take over/replace the current gov't, but are fighting the foreign occupiers so they may leave. Some of the Taliban/insurgents also are fighting primarily because its a job/paycheck. Therefore, if NATO leaves then the Taliban may be slightly weaker if it decides to overtake the current gov't.

NATO has an agreement with Karzai that it will leave Afghanistan in 2014 (ya right). What is paradoxical is that, unless there is a deal with the Taliban, the US/NATO will likely need to stay to support the Afghan army to secure the country. However, NATO staying actually makes the Taliban stronger for the reasons i cited (ie: many are fighting the foreign occupation, not to retake the gov't...althought the "puppet" govt can be seen as a kind of foreign occupation in itself so many Taliban/insurgents will want it abolished).

So again, what is the logic of training the Afghan army?

[Moonlight Graham]

Also to add, as i`ve said this before on these forums, the entire democratic nation-building we are doing in Afghanistan is very likely doomed for failure in the way we are approaching it now, because the Afghan gov't is already corrupt, and if NATO/US were to ever actually leave the country the gov't would sooner than later become either insanely corrupt or authoritarian. Democracy in this country, given the current situation, is a b.s. pipedream.

More horrifying about us training and arming the Afghan army is that these very soldiers/weapons may end up being involved in a military coup to overthrow the current "democratic" gov't.

Just look at Africa post-WWII, where many African soldiers from African countries who were trained by European colonial powers to fight for them in WWII used this training after the war to rebel against these very same colonial powers & help their African countries gain independence. Then these same soldiers used their training to form military regimes in African states, and/or organize military coups to overtake western set-up "democratic" regimes.

History is the lesson here folks. During the Soviet war in the 80's, the US funded weapons/training for the mujaheddin, who are now members of the Taliban and al-Qaeda etc. who we are fighting now. Have we not learned ANYTHING?

Edited November 19, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[August1991]

However, if most of the most powerful nations in the world with the most advanced military tech in the world are basically at a stalemate vs the Taliban and cannot defeat them, exactly what chance does a rag-tag group of Afghan soldiers (no matter how well-trained, and whom will have nowhere near the military tech of NATO) have to defend the country/gov't against the Taliban over the long-term?

The only chance i see this new "army" being successful vs Taliban attacks is the fact that many of the insurgents fighting NATO are not doing so to take over/replace the current gov't, but are fighting the foreign occupiers so they may leave.

MG, second question first.

I too agree that people in Afghanistan want us to leave. We should, very soon.

Now your first question: If the rich, sophisticated West can't defeat the Taliban, then what about a West-supported Afghan government?

I say: Let Afghans sort this question out. IMV, as long as Afghans don't offer a place for Islamic radicals to threaten Western society then who cares about the Taliban. Afghanistan can be a backward society where clan membership decides status and women are treated like sheep. Does it matter? Yes in principle, it does. But Afghans must decide this - like Saudis and Koreans for their own societies.

[dre]

Also to add, as i`ve said this before on these forums, the entire democratic nation-building we are doing in Afghanistan is very likely doomed for failure in the way we are approaching it now, because the Afghan gov't is already corrupt, and if NATO/US were to ever actually leave the country the gov't would sooner than later become either insanely corrupt or authoritarian. Democracy in this country, given the current situation, is a b.s. pipedream.

More horrifying about us training and arming the Afghan army is that these very soldiers/weapons may end up being involved in a military coup to overthrow the current "democratic" gov't.

Just look at Africa post-WWII, where many African soldiers from African countries who were trained by European colonial powers to fight for them in WWII used this training after the war to rebel against these very same colonial powers & help their African countries gain independence. Then these same soldiers used their training to form military regimes in African states, and/or organize military coups to overtake western set-up "democratic" regimes.

History is the lesson here folks. During the Soviet war in the 80's, the US funded weapons/training for the mujaheddin, who are now members of the Taliban and al-Qaeda etc. who we are fighting now. Have we not learned ANYTHING?

Afghanistan is very likely doomed for failure in the way we are approaching it now, because the Afghan gov't is already corrupt

I think the main reason our vision wont work there is because theres no viable revenue stream with which to support a strong central government. And without that our plan of "establishing a government that wont let terrorists set up shop" is not gonna work.

If we want a stable government there that is powerfull enough to do the things we want it to do then we will literally have to fund it forever. Or legalize herion globally... that would work too

[wyly]

ahh so I'm not alone in thinking this is a complete waste of money...

[M.Dancer]

Canada and NATO are training the Afghan army, for many reasons of course, but supposedly primarily to defend the new Afghan gov't from the Taliban. However, if most of the most powerful nations in the world with the most advanced military tech in the world are basically at a stalemate vs the Taliban...

And that's where the premise of your argument fails. The taliban have gone from 100% violent opposition pledging never to accept the democratic government to being splintered and moving towards making overtures for peace..we are obviously not at a stalement as 30,000 dead taliban can attest.

[Argus]

Canada and NATO are training the Afghan army, for many reasons of course, but supposedly primarily to defend the new Afghan gov't from the Taliban. However, if most of the most powerful nations in the world with the most advanced military tech in the world are basically at a stalemate vs the Taliban and cannot defeat them, exactly what chance does a rag-tag group of Afghan soldiers (no matter how well-trained, and whom will have nowhere near the military tech of NATO) have to defend the country/gov't against the Taliban over the long-term?

Well, first, you're quite wrong. The West could certainly defeat the Taliban. However, other considerations get in the way. The West can't afford heavy casualties, nor heavy civilian casualties. Neither of those are considerations in any future Afghani actions. Ie, if 100 Canadian or British or even American troops die in an offensive that could lead to political crisis at home. I don't even suggest that the Germans or French would ever do anything which could involve such casualties. They don't ever get involved in fighting if they can avoid it. But in any event, 100 dead Afghan soldiers is nothing for a future government to get worked up about, so they can afford to do things Western countries can't.

However, the fighting ability of its soldiers is really not the issue. The issue is their nearly complete lack of loyalty to that government. Afghan soldiers routinely desert. They have no particular love or affection for the central government. Their only loyalty is to clan and family. That is why they routinely fail when going against Taliban. I don't, frankly, see how any amount of training is going to change that.

[M.Dancer]

Also to add, as i`ve said this before on these forums, the entire democratic nation-building we are doing in Afghanistan is very likely doomed for failure in the way we are approaching it now, because the Afghan gov't is already corrupt, ....

100% uncorruption is onl;y possible in an absolute tryanny...similar claims of corruption exist in almost every democracy, from Australia, the UK, Italy, USA and even Canada...so that claim too fails.

[Michael Hardner]

I too agree that people in Afghanistan want us to leave.

Just to point out that the polls I have seen say the exact opposite.

[Saipan]

What is the logic in training the Afghan troops?

To have better trained and better equiped Taliban one day.

[g_bambino]

100% uncorruption is onl;y possible in an absolute tryanny...similar claims of corruption exist in almost every democracy, from Australia, the UK, Italy, USA and even Canada...so that claim too fails.

Afghanistan does seem particularly bad; in comparison to Western countries, though, not necessarily compared to neighbouring states.

[Oleg Bach]

Harper and the boys are walking lock step with the Yanks..This is the first time in history that Canada is practicing American style imperialism..It used to be in the old days that we practiced assistance of Britian in the maintainance of empire..Now we are degraded to the level of being henchmen...we all know that the reason out posts like Israel and now Afghanistan exist is to create and maintain wealth...Believe it or not..the only reason we are there is because in the end it will generate money ..not so much of the Afghans but for us and the Yanks.

You can "train" or in essence create Canadian law enforcement to gain control of resources BUT eventually the common Afghan will figure it out and a voiced will go off in their head that will say "Hey - wait a minute..these people are not our friends they are simply using us" - Once that takes place on mass it will spell mission failure.

Don't try to convince me or the Canadian people that we are a bunch of Christ figures saving the Afghans from the devil...that is NOT evident because we do not even care for our own people in a full and meaningful way..we are weasils and hypocrites who dupe soldiers to do the bidding of some shiffty elite..who do not respect our marshall class and just USE them also...as we see with the cutting of benefits to injured soldiers..In other words ....Our military will figure out they are disrespected being used..around the same time the Afghan dupes figure it out and it will all collapse rapidly.

[M.Dancer]

Afghanistan does seem particularly bad; in comparison to Western countries, though, not necessarily compared to neighbouring states.

It may be un PC but corruption, graft and "commissions" are part of the culture...it is expected.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11782795

http://news.oneindia.in/2010/11/16/weare-closely-monitoring-corruption-in-pakistanholbrook.html

[ToadBrother]

I think the main reason our vision wont work there is because theres no viable revenue stream with which to support a strong central government. And without that our plan of "establishing a government that wont let terrorists set up shop" is not gonna work.

If we want a stable government there that is powerfull enough to do the things we want it to do then we will literally have to fund it forever. Or legalize herion globally... that would work too

Afghanistan is not without natural resources. The problem is that you cannot produce a stable government and economic landscape while you have an armed group that, for whatever reason, will attempt to wipe it out at every opportunity.

[capricorn]

Afghanistan is not without natural resources. The problem is that you cannot produce a stable government and economic landscape while you have an armed group that, for whatever reason, will attempt to wipe it out at every opportunity.

In my view, this is due to a mindset that germinated in the Afghan psyche as a result of historical wars but especially the more recent Soviet Union's 10 year war on their land. This has spawned a hardened minority of Afghans who have an inbred hatred for all things foreign, more notably military, who think nothing of turning to violence to chase them out. These Afghans are a prime target for recruitment by the Taliban who want nothing more than to reinstate themselves as the law. While the Taliban talk loudly of wanting to negotiate their way into a duly constituted government, they continue spreading mayhem and violence. Their declarations are at odds with their actions.

From the outset, winning the hearts and minds of Afghans was NATO's underlying strategy to gain their trust and to stabilize the country. IMO that was not as successful as was anticipated. You can't obliterate what the Afghan people have suffered, no matter how hard you try. What is there to do but let Afghans decide their own destiny. I do think they will be better equipped to work toward that objective once all of NATO pulls out.

[eyeball]

So again, what is the logic of training the Afghan army?

To convince the rubes that we won and that no Canadians died in vain.

[PIK]

Harper and the boys are walking lock step with the Yanks..This is the first time in history that Canada is practicing American style imperialism..It used to be in the old days that we practiced assistance of Britian in the maintainance of empire..Now we are degraded to the level of being henchmen...we all know that the reason out posts like Israel and now Afghanistan exist is to create and maintain wealth...Believe it or not..the only reason we are there is because in the end it will generate money ..not so much of the Afghans but for us and the Yanks.

You can "train" or in essence create Canadian law enforcement to gain control of resources BUT eventually the common Afghan will figure it out and a voiced will go off in their head that will say "Hey - wait a minute..these people are not our friends they are simply using us" - Once that takes place on mass it will spell mission failure.

Don't try to convince me or the Canadian people that we are a bunch of Christ figures saving the Afghans from the devil...that is NOT evident because we do not even care for our own people in a full and meaningful way..we are weasils and hypocrites who dupe soldiers to do the bidding of some shiffty elite..who do not respect our marshall class and just USE them also...as we see with the cutting of benefits to injured soldiers..In other words ....Our military will figure out they are disrespected being used..around the same time the Afghan dupes figure it out and it will all collapse rapidly.

This is real peacekeeping and as long as we are there , more peole get educated, the better it will be in the future. If we all left now the country would go right back to where it was and every person that helped out NATO would be rounded up with thier families and killed. Sorry but we canadians do not leave peole in the lurch like that agfter all we have done over there.NATO leaves afghan people to fend for themselves, families wipe out , now that would be a great headline in the papers. I can't get over how many people would sell their soul just to disgree with harper.Go and tell a soldier he being used and disrespected and see what happens to you. Edited November 19, 2010 by PIK

[wyly]

To convince the rubes that we won and that no Canadians died in vain.

yup, it's the politically correct course...how pissed would people be if the government came out and said it was a mistake, a no win situation and a waste of time, it's time to cut and run...try explain that to family of the dead and billions of taxpayers dollars wasted...but like vietnam it was a complete waste of time, money and most importantly lives...afghanistan will determine it's own destiny no matter what we do...

it's unfortunate being elected to parliament doesn't have mandatory qualifications like, a knowledge of history...

[Jack Weber]

yup, it's the politically correct course...how pissed would people be if the government came out and said it was a mistake, a no win situation and a waste of time, it's time to cut and run...try explain that to family of the dead and billions of taxpayers dollars wasted...but like vietnam it was a complete waste of time, money and most importantly lives...afghanistan will determine it's own destiny no matter what we do...

it's unfortunate being elected to parliament doesn't have mandatory qualifications like, a knowledge of history...

How would all those bumper sticker sloganeering buffoons think who've never thought this through...

You've hit on something historical that most of the "We support the troops" crowd never grasps...

A long tradition of independence and standing up to foreign invasion,even if that "invasion" was done for ostensibly good reasons...

Alexander the Great could'nt conquer Afghanistan...

The British,at the height of their empire could'nt conquer Afghanistan..

The Soviet Union could'nt conquer,or even tame,Afghanistan...

What makes the "We support the troops" Uberpatriots think we could,or are even capable of, doing what has been historically impossible?

[wyly]

Go and tell a soldier he being used and disrespected and see what happens to you.

go tell the vietnam vets they weren't used and disrespected....

[Guest TrueMetis]

it's unfortunate being elected to parliament doesn't have mandatory qualifications like, a knowledge of history...

Well if it did there would be no way you would be allowed in. You crappy Vietnam comparisons aside you need to realize that the entire time we've been in Afghanistan we've been beating the Taliban, every engagement has been heavily in our favour. We've given the average Afghani a huge increase in security and safety and if we wanted to we could keep this up for the next 50 years, instead we're trying to give Afghanistan the ability to do it on it's own. If they don't that not our fault. I don't know about you but I consider everything we've done so far a success and try telling a soldier that's been there that what he did and his comrades dying has been in vain. You'll be handed your ass on a platter.

Alexander the Great could'nt conquer Afghanistan...

The British,at the height of their empire could'nt conquer Afghanistan..

The Soviet Union could'nt conquer,or even tame,Afghanistan...

As has been said before then it's a good thing we aren't trying to conquer Afghanistan.

Edited November 20, 2010 by TrueMetis

[wyly]

How would all those bumper sticker sloganeering buffoons think who've never thought this through...

You've hit on something historical that most of the "We support the troops" crowd never grasps...

A long tradition of independence and standing up to foreign invasion,even if that "invasion" was done for ostensibly good reasons...

Alexander the Great could'nt conquer Afghanistan...

The British,at the height of their empire could'nt conquer Afghanistan..

The Soviet Union could'nt conquer,or even tame,Afghanistan...

What makes the "We support the troops" Uberpatriots think we could,or are even capable of, doing what has been historically impossible?

harper-commerce degree...ignatieff-lawyer...chretien-lawyer... not a history major in sight, the social sciences are so often under appreciated...probably none of the three heard or comprehended that cliché "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"....

[Jack Weber]

Well if it did there would be no way you would be allowed in. You crappy Vietnam comparisons aside you need to realize that the entire time we've been in Afghanistan we've been beating the Taliban, every engagement has been heavily in our favour. We've given the average Afghani a huge increase in security and safety and if we wanted to we could keep this up for the next 50 years, instead we're trying to give Afghanistan the ability to do it on it's own. If they don't that not our fault. I don't know about you but I consider everything we've done so far a success and try telling a soldier that's been there that what he did and his comrades dying has been in vain. You'll be handed your ass on a platter.

As has been said before then it's a good thing we aren't trying to conquer Afghanistan.

We are attempting to "tame" it to "democratize" it...

Any historical evidence that proves this is going to happen?

[Jack Weber]

harper-commerce degree...ignatieff-lawyer...chretien-lawyer... not a history major in sight, the social sciences are so often under appreciated...probably none of the three heard or comprehended that cliché "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"....

Unfortunately,I tend to agree...Phony "We support the troops" nationalistic patriotism will not change historical fact...

[wyly]

Well if it did there would be no way you would be allowed in. You crappy Vietnam comparisons aside you need to realize that the entire time we've been in Afghanistan we've been beating the Taliban, every engagement has been heavily in our favour. We've given the average Afghani a huge increase in security and safety and if we wanted to we could keep this up for the next 50 years, instead we're trying to give Afghanistan the ability to do it on it's own. If they don't that not our fault. I don't know about you but I consider everything we've done so far a success and try telling a soldier that's been there that what he did and his comrades dying has been in vain. You'll be handed your ass on a platter.

As has been said before then it's a good thing we aren't trying to conquer Afghanistan.

you know the entire time the USA was in vietnam they never lost a battle...they left the Vietnamese military far better equipped and trained than the afghan military will be, educationally and level of sophistication the afghans are light-years behind the s Vietnamese ...yet in the end the result was inevitable...

the taliban like the viet-cong and n vietnamese have time and motivation/devotion to the cause on their side...

i'll have no problem telling my military relatives it was a waste of time and lives...and my ass will just fine...

Edited November 20, 2010 by wyly