What is the logic in training the Afghan troops?

[Saipan]

I could dumb down my posts for you but why?

To show you can walk your talk.

[wyly]

I'm well aware of the sources available, infact before each tour we do get a rather lengthy history course on Afghanistan, as part of our training. But your remarks are misleading to those that do not know the history behind Afghanistans current situation.

I've made the point before about those(politicians) not knowing history are doomed to repeat it...soldiers should be among the most educated on history, their lives often depend on it...to those that aren't they're as stupid as the politicians who are ignorant of history, they're as responsible as the politicians for sending soldiers in to situations like these...

The US government did covertly fund and provide some training to mujahideen, which were made up of muslims from around the globe, plus the hundrds of different Afghanis tribes ....Once the Russians were on the way out that funding and training stopped, Unless you can prove other wise. As for you statement of the US making it's existance possiable, it certainily did not fund them, equip them or train them as an organization, it may of provided them with the excuse to come into existance by deploying to Saudi during the Gulf wars, but we could hardly place the blame solely on the US becuase Bin Ladin did not like the fact that US troops were deployed in the same Nation as the 2 Mecas....Thats just crap....

the damage was done by the US, many of those young fighters of past days are now in experienced leadership positions, they didn't suddenly become stupid and forget how to fight when the soviets left, the $3-6 billion in funding didn't disappear either, weapons and knowledge of how to use them remained as did the training provided...

You should clear this up alittle to, the US did provide "some" recruiting, training, and wpns to the Mujahideen,you fail to mention that they did target specfic groups within the Mujahideen, but not the entire organization, in fact when you add up the funding coming out of Suadi and other Muslim countries you'll find it dwarfs the US contribution by quite alot....and yet you failed to mention them or place any blame at there doorstep...

the funding was given primarily to seven factions, I cited the prime recipient of the US funding one of the most fanatical islamists...other muslim countries worked at the behest of the US government, they could not have pulled it off without the USA leading the way...

You have got to be kidding, you you've been watching to many Soviet news reels...Russian Spec ops teams replaced the old Afghanis government by gun piont, actually bullets, they conducted Divisional sized Attacks that razed to the ground huge swaths of Afghanis villiages , towns even cities, killing everything in thier paths...including children, shit they even developed mines that looked like toys....So please lets not assume they where there for humanitarian reasons.

their purpose for being there and how they conducted the war are two different issues, in other soviet republics the local inhabitants were dragged from the middle ages often violently, they weren't gentle but women were emancipated and educated...the USA was also a very efficient/ruthless killer of civilians in vietnam, it's improved since vietnam but it's still a callous occupier in regards to civilians...and ya they intent was humanitarian, socialism is always about improving the lives of the common people how they get it done is the questionable part...

The US did support certain groups within the Mujahideen but not all of them, and yes some of them may have been Isliamic fundamentalists, or held views much different than those normally excepted in the west but they were fighting for there very existance as a people...It should be also noted that alot of the extremist groups would not except aid from the west....

it should also be noted that even with the great military strength of the US or Russia nobody could have predicted how that war would turn out...the all seeing eye has yet to be perfected....

agreed but it comes back to the issue of "minding our business" the soviets should not have gotten involved and neither should have the USA...it's the afghans country and culture, it was their problem to solve... Edited November 25, 2010 by wyly

[Army Guy]

I've made the point before about those(politicians) not knowing history are doomed to repeat it...soldiers should be among the most educated on history, their lives often depend on it...to those that aren't they're as stupid as the politicians who are ignorant of history, they're as responsible as the politicians for sending soldiers in to situations like these...

I think for the most part most of the posters here do have a fair grasp of what is going on, hence why they are here in the first place, to debate....but there are some posters that take whats printed in the media or modes of media such as this forum as gosple. so clarity is important.

the damage was done by the US, many of those young fighters of past days are now in experienced leadership positions, they didn't suddenly become stupid and forget how to fight when the soviets left, the $3-6 billion in funding didn't disappear either, weapons and knowledge of how to use them remained as did the training provided...

My piont here is i agree the US is responsiable for training "SOME" of the fighters, but the bulk of the funding came out of Saudi and private Muslim donations, which dwarfed the US contributions...and yet you blame ONLY the US for the problem. which is not being clear, or entirely truthfull.

And your right they did not forget they're training, that being said mujahideen forces re equiped and re armed from the Russians,infact they still are today for the most part still using atlot of ammo and small arms left behind...Infact there are still plenty of huge fields filled with old russian tanks and IFV's, aircraft, helo's, all left behind when the Russians left...along with massive ammo dumps and caches scattered across the country....my piont is wpns and ammo are not hard to find, and for 20 US dollars you can get a fairly new AK-47 or 74 at most markets...So we can hardly blame the US for flooding the market with cheap wpns...

the funding was given primarily to seven factions, I cited the prime recipient of the US funding one of the most fanatical islamists...other muslim countries worked at the behest of the US government, they could not have pulled it off without the USA leading the way...

7 out of the hundrds that took part in the war, and while i will agree of those 7 we would be hard to find one boy scout amoung them, but out of that list 2 of the major players were also the major players in the Northern alliance...an Anti Taliban group....so the sword cuts on both sides, if we use your logic.

their purpose for being there and how they conducted the war are two different issues, in other soviet republics the local inhabitants were dragged from the middle ages often violently, they weren't gentle but women were emancipated and educated...

Your right but don't let the Russia media fool you, it was not their intention to build schools and emancipated women, right from the start they sent down spec ops and killed off the self appionted President, and replaced him with a Russian puppet...they followed that up with huge invasion force which set the pace for thier entire stay in Afghanistan....Razing entire swaths of villages, towns , cities....with DIv's of main battle tanks, entire wings of bombers and fighters,they may have built a few schools or even tried to give human rights back to women , but the dead don't tell lies....hard to enjoy both when your being hunted down and killed off like rabbits...

the USA was also a very efficient/ruthless killer of civilians in vietnam,

I can recall only one incident of US forces involved in a mass killing of civilians, which sparked an inter national incident and those responable were held accountable....and it was nothing like what the Russians accomplished in Afghanistan....there are alot of books written by ex Russian soldiers, they make for a good read, they spare no details and can be backed up with facts...the Russians were loath for a reason...being brutal was one of them....

it's improved since vietnam but it's still a callous occupier in regards to civilians...and ya they intent was humanitarian, socialism is always about improving the lives of the common people how they get it done is the questionable part...

Provide examples , of known incidents that soldiers were not held accountable for actions such as mass killings, yes they bomb the shit out of things that is what we do in war...civilians die in fact at a greeater number than soldiers....that is a fact, compare those numbers to any conflict and you'll find much more care is taken today than say in early Iraq, or Korea....

As for improving lives, compare when we first hit the ground, to today....they have it much better...alot of work has gone into infra struture such as highways, dams, cities sewage systems...ya it's not up to western standards but it has definatly improved.....then do the same when the Russian were in charge....

agreed but it comes back to the issue of "minding our business" the soviets should not have gotten involved and neither should have the USA...it's the afghans country and culture, it was their problem to solve...

There comes a time when every nation needs to see a problem for what it is, and it needs to take action, not bury it's head in the sand and hope it will go away, or hope it will not effect us....at some piont we need to say here is the line in the sand cross it and we are going to give you a beat down....

What if we had done the same thing in WWI, WWII, or Korea....it is said all evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing.....sooner or later good men need to stand up...would you not agree....we do it all the time, you see a man slap a women hard across the face what do you do...look the other way or stand up...I think most of us would stand up, confront the man...why does that not translate into the way nations act....

[Army Guy]

Former Liberal leader Stephane Dion questioned Wednesday why Canadian Armed Forces need to train Afghan military to fight the Taliban, when the Afghans were strong enough to defeat the forces of the Soviet Union in the 1980s.

His question was among an array of misgivings about Canada's role in Afghanistan that opposition MPs voiced to top officials from four government departments who testified at the House of Commons special committee on Canada's mission in Afghanistan.

He sought some assurance that training really is necessary in a country where "young people know how to dismantle" AK-47 automatic weapons and put them back together.

He expressed concern that some trained Afghan army members don't stay long, some defect to the Taliban and "they don't want really to fight" the insurgency.

"After all, we are speaking about people that have been able to win against the Soviet Union," he said. "If they were willing to win against the Taliban they would not need so much training ... How come those people who won against the Soviet Union need training?"

This clearly shows the amount of education you require to be a liberal leader, and to think he almost ran this country, and we wonder why our own military fears our politicians today.....by this logic why do we train anyone, why do i need to have a degree to become a lawyer, i mean the court clerk who has say 5 years in a court room should be able to be one,i mean they know the procedures, or how about the door man in the hospital performing brain surgery....shit the educational net work shows live surgery.... any takers.....

Anyone can pick up a rifle and run around the mountains or woods terrorize the people it does not take training to do that....it does however take training to survive on a battle field....Hey i watch CPAF on a regular basis i wonder if i can qualify to run the liberal party....

[Moonlight Graham]

I could dumb down my posts for you but why?

you got it backwards. you need to smarten them up.

[eyeball]

What if we had done the same thing in WWI, WWII, or Korea....it is said all evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing.....sooner or later good men need to stand up...would you not agree....we do it all the time, you see a man slap a women hard across the face what do you do...look the other way or stand up...I think most of us would stand up, confront the man...why does that not translate into the way nations act....

It would probably translate better if the Shinning Beacons weren't doing things like rendition or providing WMD's to dictatorships.

When bad kids see good men behaving no better than a bad kid, well... is it really that much of a surprise the world is the way it is?

[Saipan]

It would probably translate better if the Shinning Beacons weren't doing things like rendition or providing WMD's to dictatorships.

How many members in the Shinning Beacons Club besides Russia, China, France, Germany and Canada?

[Topaz]

I have a question concerning the training. After these Afghans are trained INSIDE the wire, who will take them OUTSIDE the wire to see how well they perform to the REAL thing? It is OUTSIDE the wire were US soldiers have been killed by the trained Afghans, then the Afghans join the Taliban's.