Debt and Prime Ministers

[lukin]

Can anyone let me know what Canada's debt/deficit was before and after Pierre Trudeau?

Punked, I'm relying on you here.

[Topaz]

Can anyone let me know what Canada's debt/deficit was before and after Pierre Trudeau?

Punked, I'm relying on you here.

Try this.... http://www.debtclock.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=42 and notice what it says at the bottom about the 11 years it took to wipe out the debt, three years of the Tories, wipe that out and now we are more in debt.

[Shady]

Try this.... http://www.debtclock.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=42 and notice what it says at the bottom about the 11 years it took to wipe out the debt, three years of the Tories, wipe that out and now we are more in debt.

Yeah. Damn the Tories for causing the US recession and housing problem.

[capricorn]

Can anyone let me know what Canada's debt/deficit was before and after Pierre Trudeau?

I found this.

He didn't do things on the cheap. Over 16 years with Trudeau as prime minister, Canada's national debt skyrocketed by 1,200 per cent, from $17 billion to more than $200 billion.

http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/politics/pm/pierretrudeau.htm

[lukin]

I found this.

http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/politics/pm/pierretrudeau.htm

Thanks Capricorn. Trudeau's Conservatives put this country in serious debt. Damn Conservatives.

[Smallc]

Thanks Capricorn. Trudeau's Conservatives put this country in serious debt. Damn Conservatives.

What about Brian Mulroney?

[lukin]

What about Brian Mulroney?

I guess Mulroney inherited it from Pierre, you know, the same excuse used for Obama.

[PIK]

I guess Mulroney inherited it from Pierre, you know, the same excuse used for Obama.

Did mulrooney not slow down the debt and did he not show a small surplus in his last year?

[Smallc]

Did mulrooney not slow down the debt and did he not show a small surplus in his last year?

He slowed it down, I suppose, but there was no surplus.

[Mr.Canada]

So when this current economic downturn occurred the left was screaming for bailouts of the auto industry et el. Now that they got the bailouts they're complaining about the debt. I find this hilarious. You cannot have it both ways.

If the Liberals or NDP were in power the debt would be much much higher then it is now. Just look at what the NDP did to Ontario in the 90's for a clue.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[Topaz]

This may help answer your questions......... http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/524486

[madmax]

So when this current economic downturn occurred the left was screaming for bailouts of the auto industry et el. Now that they got the bailouts they're complaining about the debt. I find this hilarious. You cannot have it both ways.

If the Liberals or NDP were in power the debt would be much much higher then it is now. Just look at what the NDP did to Ontario in the 90's for a clue.

Yeah, U could look at the One NDP turkey who is a Liberal. Failed NewDemocrats become Liberals. Successful ones become Icons.

Or you could follow the fiscal track record of all NDP governments and the facts are that the NDP governments were more fiscally responsible then the Conservative and Liberal Governments and that isn't including Tommy Douglases 5 Consecutive Terms with Balanced Budgets.

Conservatives have a Long List of Fiscal Losers.

Grant Devine

Brian Mulroney

Stephan Harper

[Topaz]

So when this current economic downturn occurred the left was screaming for bailouts of the auto industry et el. Now that they got the bailouts they're complaining about the debt. I find this hilarious. You cannot have it both ways.

If the Liberals or NDP were in power the debt would be much much higher then it is now. Just look at what the NDP did to Ontario in the 90's for a clue.

Those monies were loans and GM has started to pay back the loan. The Tories were in debt BEFORE the recession hit plus they blew through 13 billion left in a surplus, so they spent 13+54=67Billion and to cut corporate taxes again will cost 6 Bil in BORROWED money, so now we're up 73Bil plus add the interest on that which must be another Billion and since they cut the GST, they lost income there adding to the debt. IF you are going to blame the NDP in Ontario, then you also have to blame the Fed. Libs and PC's and the only difference is that its was the first time the NDP formed a government and Rae said he did make mistakes and he was facing a recession. When is Harper going to admit to HIS mistakes? They don't they blame the OTHER guy!

[Oleg Bach]

My dear old father described the failings of what was the Soviet Empire. He said that eventually the bureacracy grew to the point where 80% of the workers were bureaucrats and the remainder actually did the real work..the real generation of material wealth. The system became so top heavey with governmental employees and others who created nothing that finally the system fell on it's face. It probably does not matter who is prime minister, as for indebtedness...the problem is that everyone wants to earn a living by doing nothing - and those with real skill are dispised by left wing socialist along with right wing corporate socialists.

I see a trend - when a person becomes unemployed the system as far as "re-training" - makes no attempt to restore the skilled person to his or her former position - they attempt to install them into an indirect form of informal buracracy - in other words the job creation is such that it is really and truely a job "creation" - a useless and meaningless occupation..created by other bureacrats. So if you had a prior position that carried an air of status or skill - our system attempts to degrade the person and lower them to a level of supposed equality - with this system everyone is equal - EQUALLY POOR!

[Topaz]

IF one stops and thinks about it if the "global" aim is to outsource jobs FROM NORTH AMERICA, then jobs will be gone for ever and there will be more people needing jobs than there are jobs available. I've hear both people in their 20's and 50's are having problems finding work. We still have over a million people without work and with that, the government is missing out of that income tax or revenue and its costing Canadians to having these people not working.

[segnosaur]

Those monies were loans and GM has started to pay back the loan.

Actually, there are currently questions regarding GM and its claim of 'paying back' the loan:

From: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703876404575200832185846038.html?KEYWORDS=general+motors#

A top Republican senator said General Motors' announcement this week that it will repay its federal loans early is "nothing more than an elaborate TARP money shuffle."...the source of the funds for the $4.7 billion repayment is not GM earnings, but rather a Treasury escrow account.

From: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/04/23/did-general-motors-really-repay-taxpayer-bailout/ (Yes, I do recognize that Fox News is a questionable source; however, the information seems to be backed up by information appearing in other sources. This article just goes into more detail.)

GM did not repay the loans with money it earned from selling cars. Instead, GM repaid the TARP loans with money it withdrew from another TARP fund at the Treasury Department.

IF one stops and thinks about it if the "global" aim is to outsource jobs FROM NORTH AMERICA, then jobs will be gone for ever and there will be more people needing jobs than there are jobs available.

Actually the "aim" isn't to outsource jobs from North America. The 'aim' is to allow countries to produce goods/services that its infrastructure is best suited for. At this point, it can mean that labor-intensive tedious manufacturing jobs might be done in poorer countries; however, the U.S. and Canada will make up for it with its better educated public and greater technological resources (which lead to more technology based jobs). And if/when those poorer countries start developing better-educated workforces, salaries there will rise, thus allowing at least some of those manufacturing jobs to return.

[August1991]

Thanks Capricorn. Trudeau's Conservatives put this country in serious debt. Damn Conservatives.

Wait a second. Trudeau's Liberals racked up the debt during the severe recession of the early 1980s, just like Obama and Harper (to a lesser degree) are doing now.

In a recession, government revenues fall but government expenditure is largely mandated and continues. Hence, governments borrow. (Mulroney had the awful situation of high real interest rates and indexed tax rates combined with a large debt.)

Clinton and Chretien were fortunate that the economy grew steadily while they were leaders.

-----

IOW, government budget deficits/surpluses follow economic trends - and it would be naive to point a finger at politicians.

I've hear both people in their 20's and 50's are having problems finding work. We still have over a million people without work and with that, the government is missing out of that income tax or revenue and its costing Canadians to having these people not working.

Topaz, leftist pro-government types have so brainwashed you that you view unemployment as bad because it means lower government tax revenues. That's a sad commentary on the modern world.

I am reminded of the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany where people toiled to glorify the Motherland/Fatherland or the regime in place.

An unemployed person is a waste of time, talent and opportunity first and foremost to the unemployed persons themselves.

Edited September 28, 2010 by August1991

[capricorn]

Wait a second. Trudeau's Liberals racked up the debt during the severe recession of the early 1980s,

Give your head a shake, August. You're saying Trudeau's debt was accumulated strictly during the recessionary period 1980 to 1982? The man had been Prime Minister since 1968, except for Clark's 9 months stint in late 1979 as PM.

I'd like to see a reference to back up your statement.

[August1991]

I'd like to see a reference to back up your statement.

This link.

You'll note the large drop between roughly 1981 and 1985.

I am not saying that Trudeau was parsimonious. (Me? Defend Trudeau?) I say that the large deficit/debt Trudeau left to Mulroney in 1984 was largely due to the recession of the early 1980s.

BTW, that recession was due to US Fed policies to control inflation. The policies worked, and lead to the so-called Great Moderation and economic growth of the 1990s/2000s. Unfortunately, it took a severe recession to do this.

The other major drop was around 1973-74, again a recession. Contrary to popular belief, the 1970s were not an easy economic period. Monetary expansion in the 1960s lead to stagflation in the 1970s - and there were oil price shocks.

Edited September 28, 2010 by August1991

[RNG]

With respect to General Motors, (I don't use GM because so many radicals just assume you mean genetically modified), a US based board I frequent with guys who watch these things very closely, bitch like crazy about the fact that Gen Mot have paid back Canada, but still owe the US billions.

[Moonbox]

August while you seem to hit many of the primary points dead on, but Trudeau raised taxes throughout his term, raised program expenses even faster (even outside of recessions) and left massive deficits for Mulroney to finance at unheard of inflation rates. Mulroney did an aweful job fixing the problem, but blame him for not doing enough to fix it, not for creating the problem. Trudeau's responsible for not only all of the debt in the late 60's, 70's and up to 1982, but much of what was accumulated under Mulroney as well, given the debt servicing costs.

If it weren't for Trudeau, Mulroney would have ran mostly balanced budgets and we wouldn't be paying the taxes we do today.

[ironstone]

So when this current economic downturn occurred the left was screaming for bailouts of the auto industry et el. Now that they got the bailouts they're complaining about the debt. I find this hilarious. You cannot have it both ways.

If the Liberals or NDP were in power the debt would be much much higher then it is now. Just look at what the NDP did to Ontario in the 90's for a clue.

Reason and logic are two concepts not embraced by the left.

[Evening Star]

But as madmax already pointed out, Bob Rae is not the only NDP premier that we've seen. SK and MB have long histories of highly fiscally responsible NDP governments. Rae was really more the exception than the rule. (It's worth keeping in mind that he had to preside over the departure of much of ON's manufacturing sector, which was certainly not his fault, that the federal government was cutting transfer payments, and also that the social contract actually generated some savings in the long term that Mike Harris' government got to benefit from. I'm not saying that he was the greatest premier but the situation is not as simplistic as some make it out to be.)

[capricorn]

This link.

You'll note the large drop between roughly 1981 and 1985.

What moonbox said.

[maple_leafs182]

Speaking of our national debt, why don't we nationalize it?

I think privatizing our national was a terrible idea. At least if we nationalized the debt, we would owe the money to ourselves.