1st official gov evidence of Israel possessing nukes revealed

[bush_cheney2004]

No it hasn't. The Palestinians are still getting in weapons. The 2006 war is widely seen as a complete Israeli defeat. Nothing has changed. Israelis are being threatened, Palestinians are being threatened. How is the situation today any better than it has been for 30 years? It's still a cycle of violence. Tit for tat attacks that will go on until there's a comprehensive settlement. Force only reinforces the cycle.

No, force maintains the nation state called Israel, whereas none exists for Palestinians, who have squandered opportunity after opportunity. Israel has advanced politically and economically while Palestine stagnates and regresses...Palestine's is a failed strategy that has realized none of these goals. Violence will remain the currency of choice until something different is offered for sale.

[August1991]

Next time, perhaps it's wise if you actually read what I wrote.

I never said that Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia were admirable regimes. That being said, what those countries do in no way makes what Israel does better, either.

That's a pretense. You do not criticise Saudi Arabia or Jordan as you do Israel.

Nicky, don't tell me that Western Leftists treat Palestinians as they treat Israelis.

When you've got blockades on Gaza and West Bank...

Uh, Egypt also imposes a blockade on Gaza. And how does Jordan treat Palestinians? (Hint: The UN gives them travel documents. In 1970, the Jordanian army killed them.)

-----

Nicky, as a Western Leftist, you still haven't explained why you support an Arab regime, anti-democratic that accepts honour killings, genital mutilation, and corruption.

It is as if you supported Al Capone against FDR. Sorry, I don't get the Western Left and its position on Israel.

University workers in the Canadian Union of Public Employees have passed a controversial motion calling for an academic boycott of Israel, and union members from at least one Toronto university are planning to pressure their school to cut any financial ties with the country.

Toronto Star

[M.Dancer]

LOL! This isn't a Goldilocks tale. Variable yield nuclear warheads pre-date this alleged story by many years. See the B61 "Dial-A-Nuke".

The 3 sizes are conventional- chemical/biological and nuclear...another reason it seems fishy, South Africa had the capability at the time to produce biological and chemical weapons.

[GostHacked]

Interesting, if true, there should be more evidence to be found. If Israel has nukes, time will reveal them.

[Bonam]

I think it's obvious that Israel thinks it has nukes. Question is, would they work? Israel has never tested a nuclear weapon, so they have no practical results to judge whether what they have built would actually work or not. Unless their designs are simply direct copies of US weapons that have been tested, in which case they should have some confidence.

[M.Dancer]

I think it's obvious that Israel thinks it has nukes. Question is, would they work? Israel has never tested a nuclear weapon, so they have no practical results to judge whether what they have built would actually work or not. Unless their designs are simply direct copies of US weapons that have been tested, in which case they should have some confidence.

The official position of ambiguity (neither confirm or deny) works perfectly. Do they have a strategic weapon....maybe...maybe not. Do they have a tactile weapon? Same answer...

Is it worth (Syria, Iran) provoking them to find out?

[eyeball]

2) Trustworthiness is a relative quality that Iran has not earned.

I realize that and said as much about Israel.

As for my government's trustworthiness...

[myata]

The whole premise that one side in the conflict should be allowed to possess these weapons itself undermines possibility of fair settlement to the extent of near impossibility. Continuing massive support of Isreal regardless of their act puts last nail in the affair. Till Israel is put under the same pressure to refrain from agressive and illegal policies as their counterpart, they'll have no reason to change anything and reciprocal injustice and violence will feed the conflict as ever.

[eyeball]

The other countries in the Middle East are despotic, corrupt and patriarchal. They are often driven by religious fundamentalists who are among the worst misogynists on the planet. For a Leftist, there is nothing progressive in any Arab state. Yet, leftists defend Arabs and attack Israel.

To me, this is the great contradiction of Western Leftists.

The only contradiction here is the fact that some of the worst of the despotic, corrupt and patriarchal countries in the ME are or have been supported by Western Rightists.

There is nothing progressive about supporting dictators out one side of our mouths while decrying them out the other. Yet, rightists defend the Wests's hypocrisy and attack leftists who don't.

To me this is amongst the greatest crimes ever perpetrated against humanity.

[DogOnPorch]

eyeball: The only contradiction here is the fact that some of the worst of the despotic, corrupt and patriarchal countries in the ME are or have been supported by Western Rightists.

Which ones?

[M.Dancer]

The only contradiction here is the fact that some of the worst of the despotic, corrupt and patriarchal countries in the ME are or have been supported by Western Rightists.

Libya...Soviet client

Sudan...Soviet client

Egypt...Soviet Client...till beaten

Syria...Soviet Client

Iraq....Soviet Client

Yemen...Soviet Client

Jordan..Soviet Client...till beaten

Saudi Arabia...Western Ally...almost enlightened compared to Syria

Kuwait...see Arabia

Iran...western ally...most liberal of the mid east nations excluding israel...till the islamic nuts took over

Israel...the most liberal nation in the region...western ally

Say again?

[eyeball]

Libya...Soviet client

Sudan...Soviet client

Egypt...Soviet Client...till beaten

Syria...Soviet Client

Iraq....Soviet Client

Yemen...Soviet Client

Jordan..Soviet Client...till beaten

Saudi Arabia...Western Ally...almost enlightened compared to Syria

Kuwait...see Arabia

Iran...western ally...most liberal of the mid east nations excluding israel...till the islamic nuts took over

Israel...the most liberal nation in the region...western ally

Say again?

It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the barrel, and thereby prove that we're no more trustworthy than our enemies.

[sharkman]

It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the barrel, and thereby prove that we're no more trustworthy than our enemies.

I don't concur. The weight of evidence speaks louder than a few bad apples. The West may not be perfect, but is a force for good, for peace and for freedom.

Iran is feverishly working towards nuclear weapons while threatening another nation's existence. NK sells nuclear technology to tyrants. Russia is also helping Iran with nuclear and missile technology. The west does none of this and our people do not dream of knocking down sky-scrapers with airliners.

[myata]

Egypt...Soviet Client...till beaten

Iraq....Soviet Client

Yemen...Soviet Client

Jordan..Soviet Client...till beaten

Really? When was the last time you looked out the window? Guessing, some 20 years ago?

Saudi Arabia...Western Ally...almost enlightened compared to Syria

Kuwait...see Arabia

Yes more token of shining democracy, like that.. Afghanistan?

Iran...western ally...most liberal of the mid east nations excluding israel...

Sure.. complete with the notorious Shah's secret police

...western ally

There you go. "Western ally" simply has to "most liberal" and so on, regards of what the reality wants to show us, right?

Edited May 26, 2010 by myata

[bush_cheney2004]

The whole premise that one side in the conflict should be allowed to possess these weapons itself undermines possibility of fair settlement to the extent of near impossibility.

Yep...life isn't fair, especially when you lose the war(s).

Continuing massive support of Isreal regardless of their act puts last nail in the affair. Till Israel is put under the same pressure to refrain from agressive and illegal policies as their counterpart, they'll have no reason to change anything and reciprocal injustice and violence will feed the conflict as ever.

Good...this is progress. Since Israel's capitulation is not yet a possibility because of "massive" and continuing support, and lacking equivalent "massive support" for Palestine (that wouldn't be pissed away as before), we are left with a logical conclusion: send Palestine to charm school (bye bye rocket attacks) and normalize the state.

Edited May 26, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[myata]

Since Israel's capitulation is not yet a possibility because of "massive" and continuing support, and lacking equivalent "massive support" for Palestine (that wouldn't be pissed away as before), we are left with a logical conclusion: send Palestine to charm school (bye bye rocket attacks) and normalize the state.

Nope. The only possibility in this situation (where openly provocative and agressive behaviour by one party is smiled upon, apologised and ignored) is the continuation of conflict. Forget all peaceful cermons, the act does it all.

[GostHacked]

Which ones?

Saudi Arabia comes to mind.

[DogOnPorch]

Really? When was the last time you looked out the window? Guessing, some 20 years ago?

All the nations/states M.Dancer mentioned were former defacto Warsaw Pact nations supplied entirely for free by the Soviets save Jordan which has a mix of various equipment...mainly British. When the Soviet Union fell...the free weapon gravy train stopped. Now the Arabs have to actually (gasp) pay the Russians for their weapons and upgrades...which are expensive.

Sure.. complete with the notorious Shah's secret police

Who were busy beating on the very yahoos in power today.

There you go. "Western ally" simply has to "most liberal" and so on, regards of what the reality wants to show us, right?

I assume right after reading this you'll want to rip your Israeli designed computer chips off of your mother board. Or is that going too far re: your dislike of Israel?

[DogOnPorch]

Saudi Arabia comes to mind.

I think with their oil money, Saudi Arabia is hardly being 'propped-up' by the West's "rightists".

(DOP notes left wingers as well as right wingers drive cars...fly in planes to distant vacation spots...go on cruises...and generally waste petroleum.)

Plus, Saudi Arabia, a country I detest, wasn't involved in either the 6 Day War or Yom Kippur. How does this relate to Israel?

Edited May 26, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

Nope. The only possibility in this situation (where openly provocative and agressive behaviour by one party is smiled upon, apologised and ignored) is the continuation of conflict. Forget all peaceful cermons, the act does it all.

Still, other nations and people figured it out years ago, but not Palestine. Poor poor Palestine...hasn't a clue even when faced with the obvious. How much for the rocket?

[bush_cheney2004]

As well, Saudi Arabia, a country I detest, wasn't involved in either the 6 Day War or Yom Kippur. How does this relate to Israel?

Still, the Saudis are a delightful exercise in economic pragmatism. Add value to the equation...not just amateur rocketry.

[sharkman]

The whole premise that one side in the conflict should be allowed to possess these weapons itself undermines possibility of fair settlement to the extent of near impossibility. Continuing massive support of Isreal regardless of their act puts last nail in the affair. Till Israel is put under the same pressure to refrain from agressive and illegal policies as their counterpart, they'll have no reason to change anything and reciprocal injustice and violence will feed the conflict as ever.

You seem believe that Israel has expansionist plans and menaces her neighbors which is nonsense. Also, the odd notion that everyone should have nukes to level the playing field is beyond dangerous.

[DogOnPorch]

Still, the Saudis are a delightful exercise in economic pragmatism. Add value to the equation...not just amateur rocketry.

Indeed...and Mecca's Jewish community couldn't be reached for comment.

[DogOnPorch]

You seem believe that Israel has expansionist plans and menaces her neighbors which is nonsense. Also, the odd notion that everyone should have nukes to level the playing field is beyond dangerous.

I know...people's attitudes towards nuclear weapons is beyond cavalier. North Korea and Iran with nukes doesn't scare them. But, Israel...well......different story.

[myata]

Still, other nations and people figured it out years ago, but not Palestine. Poor poor Palestine...hasn't a clue even when faced with the obvious. How much for the rocket?

No sorry, you seem to have been misinformed. For Palestine the deal was a swiss cheese state (interspersed with sought to be legalized illegal settlements) and formal abandonment of any sovereign claim to their capital East Jerusalem. I recommend trying to stay more current on the actual situation next time around.

To DoP, etc, let's just say that nuke Korea and Iran scare me no more than nuke Israel. This is because I attempt to base my conclusions on facts rather than idealistic notions or emotions. After all, of all the states and regimes that ever held these weapons, we all know which one actually used it against humans, mostly unarmed civilians as needs to be added. Civilized democracies have no lesser aptitude at justifying and rationalizing even most atrocious acts, and when they do perhaps I'll find their claims of moral superiority better grounded in reality than as of present.