1st official gov evidence of Israel possessing nukes revealed

[Moonlight Graham]

The worst kept secret in the world now has has some tangible evidence, as report by The Guardian:

Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the apartheid regime, providing the first official documentary evidence of the state's possession of nuclear weapons.

The "top secret" minutes of meetings between senior officials from the two countries in 1975 show that South Africa's defence minister, PW Botha, asked for the warheads and Shimon Peres, then Israel's defence minister and now its president, responded by offering them "in three sizes". The two men also signed a broad-ranging agreement governing military ties between the two countries that included a clause declaring that "the very existence of this agreement" was to remain secret.

The documents, uncovered by an American academic, Sasha Polakow-Suransky, in research for a book on the close relationship between the two countries, provide evidence that Israel has nuclear weapons despite its policy of "ambiguity" in neither confirming nor denying their existence.

The Israeli authorities tried to stop South Africa's post-apartheid government declassifying the documents at Polakow-Suransky's request and the revelations will be an embarrassment, particularly as this week's nuclear non-proliferation talks in New York focus on the Middle East.

They will also undermine Israel's attempts to suggest that, if it has nuclear weapons, it is a "responsible" power that would not misuse them, whereas countries such as Iran cannot be trusted.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[M.Dancer]

I read that earlier...on top of the offical denials a couple of things stand out.

1) The article talks about missile being capable of carrying 3 sizes or warhead, not that Israel would provide any of the "sizes"

2) South Africa, not long after this event acquired nuclear weapons on their own.

3) South Africa had an interest in battlefield tacticle (artillery) nuclear weapons

4) South Africa acquired the technology for battlefield atomic artillery from the canadian firm, Space |corp, lead by Gerald Bull

5) Israel eleiminated Gerald Bull

6)South Africa is the only nation to unilaterally disarm their nuclear arsenal.

[bush_cheney2004]

1) The article talks about missile being capable of carrying 3 sizes or warhead, not that Israel would provide any of the "sizes"....

LOL! This isn't a Goldilocks tale. Variable yield nuclear warheads pre-date this alleged story by many years. See the B61 "Dial-A-Nuke".

Edited May 26, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

1,2,3,4,5,6...

These merely stand in the shadow of Israel's official ambiguity, which certainly does undermine any notion that it should be treated as though it was any more or less trustworthy than Iran.

[bush_cheney2004]

1,2,3,4,5,6...

These merely stand in the shadow of Israel's official ambiguity, which certainly does undermine any notion that it should be treated as though it was any more or less trustworthy than Iran.

Canada had far more nukes than Israel at the time...and may still. Most Canadians rationalized away this fact by saying they were under "US control".

[eyeball]

And your point was...?

[bush_cheney2004]

And your point was...?

...Canada was "trusted" just as much as Israel was/is...not so Iran.

[eyeball]

What's with the "" marks around trusted?

[bush_cheney2004]

What's with the "" marks around trusted?

See your earlier post which introduced the curious notion of "trustworthy".

[eyeball]

Okay...

And your point was...?

[bush_cheney2004]

Okay...

And your point was...?

Points...as in plural:

1) Canada was not free of nuclear weapons or deployments despite being an NPT signatory (at the time).

2) Trustworthiness is a relative quality that Iran has not earned.

3) Canada is not NWFZ compliant.

[August1991]

Why is the Western Left so anti-Israel? (The UK Guardian alludes to Israel helping apartheid South Africa. Other Leftists make similar associations.)

To me, this is the main question of this thread.

---

Israel is a functioning democracy, a liberal society, in which Arab minorities are respected. Women achieve a respectable equality to men. The Israeli State imposes progressive taxes and attempts to equalize outcomes. These are all laudable goals of Leftists.

The other countries in the Middle East are despotic, corrupt and patriarchal. They are often driven by religious fundamentalists who are among the worst misogynists on the planet. For a Leftist, there is nothing progressive in any Arab state. Yet, leftists defend Arabs and attack Israel.

To me, this is the great contradiction of Western Leftists.

[nicky10013]

Why is the Western Left so anti-Israel? (The UK Guardian alludes to Israel helping apartheid South Africa. Other Leftists make similar associations.)

To me, this is the main question of this thread.

---

Israel is a functioning democracy, a liberal society, in which Arab minorities are respected. Women achieve a respectable equality to men. The Israeli State imposes progressive taxes and attempts to equalize outcomes. These are all laudable goals of Leftists.

The other countries in the Middle East are despotic, corrupt and patriarchal. They are often driven by religious fundamentalists who are among the worst misogynists on the planet. For a Leftist, there is nothing progressive in any Arab state. Yet, leftists defend Arabs and attack Israel.

To me, this is the great contradiction of Western Leftists.

No it isn't. The first and foremost ideal of Liberalism is the protection of individual rights and liberties. Despite how much of a democracy exists in Israel proper, the actions of the IDF in Palestinian territory do more harm than good to that reputation. I'm not one of these people that says that Israel doesn't have a right to self-defense of the right to exist. They do. However, if you ask me they're doing it stupidly and committing crimes along the way. The Palestines have just as much blame in this as well. There is no right or wrong side of this conflict. This situation deserves to be judged by the facts and nothing else. Weighing that, no argument can excuse the atrocities comitted on both sides of the equation.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....The Palestines have just as much blame in this as well. There is no right or wrong side of this conflict. This situation deserves to be judged by the facts and nothing else. Weighing that, no argument can excuse the atrocities comitted on both sides of the equation.

Israel doesn't need excuses...just reasons....same as the United States and Canada.

[nicky10013]

Israel doesn't need excuses...just reasons....same as the United States and Canada.

Doesn't make it any more or less right.

[bush_cheney2004]

Doesn't make it any more or less right.

Irrelevant to the matter at hand.

[August1991]

No it isn't. The first and foremost ideal of Liberalism is the protection of individual rights and liberties. Despite how much of a democracy exists in Israel proper, the actions of the IDF in Palestinian territory do more harm than good to that reputation. I'm not one of these people that says that Israel doesn't have a right to self-defense of the right to exist. They do. However, if you ask me they're doing it stupidly and committing crimes along the way. The Palestines have just as much blame in this as well. There is no right or wrong side of this conflict. This situation deserves to be judged by the facts and nothing else. Weighing that, no argument can excuse the atrocities comitted on both sides of the equation.

Nicky, you are a typical leftist and I still don't get your argument.

Women are mistreated in Jordan and Egypt and Palestine. Honour killings are common. There is no functioning democracy in any of these places. Rich people take what they want.

And yet, you Leftists prefer to defend these societies rather than defend Israel. Heck, you don't even take a neutral stance. You explicitly attack Israel and defend Palestine.

-----

IMV, this is the great Western Leftist contradiction/conundrum. Why do Western Leftists hate Israel and love Palestine?

[nicky10013]

Irrelevant to the matter at hand.

It is if we're attempting to place blame as argus is clearly trying to do.

[bush_cheney2004]

It is if we're attempting to place blame as argus is clearly trying to do.

Blame is just more ammunition in the conflict.

[nicky10013]

Heck, you don't even take a neutral stance. You explicitly attack Israel and defend Palestine.

-----

IMV, this is the great Western Leftist contradiction/conundrum. Why do Western Leftists hate Israel and love Palestine?

Next time, perhaps it's wise if you actually read what I wrote.

The Palestines have just as much blame in this as well.

I never said that Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia were admirable regimes. That being said, what those countries do in no way makes what Israel does better, either.

[nicky10013]

Blame is just more ammunition in the conflict.

I agree. I think it's stupid. Both Israel and the Palestinians need their heads taken out of their asses.

[bush_cheney2004]

I agree. I think it's stupid. Both Israel and the Palestinians need their heads taken out of their asses.

No, Israel's policies have been much more effective. The Palestinian leadership has failed miserably over more than two generations. I would choose Israel's "ass".

[nicky10013]

No, Israel's policies have been much more effective. The Palestinian leadership has failed miserably over more than two generations. I would choose Israel's "ass".

I agree, Palestinian policy has failed but to say Israeli policy has been successful is hilarious. When you've got blockades on Gaza and West Bank, the problem is going to be worse, not better. No matter what the Palestinians do, there isn't much room for economic growth, and in the end, that's where this conflict is solved. Not through rocket strikes, walls, settlements or destroying apartment blocks. It's opening up the territories and letting Palestinians work for a decent living.

Edited May 26, 2010 by nicky10013

[bush_cheney2004]

I agree, Palestinian policy has failed, however, when you've got blockades on Gaza and West Bank aren't going to solve the problem. No matter what the Palestinians do, there isn't much room for economic growth, and in the end, that's where this conflict is solved. Not through rocket strikes, walls, settlements or destroying apartment blocks. It's opening up the territories and letting Palestinians work for a decent living.

This Catch-22 has already been answered...with more force. The Palestinians have the keys to their own prison but refuse to unlock the door.

[nicky10013]

This Catch-22 has already been answered...with more force. The Palestinians have the keys to their own prison but refuse to unlock the door.

No it hasn't. The Palestinians are still getting in weapons. The 2006 war is widely seen as a complete Israeli defeat. Nothing has changed. Israelis are being threatened, Palestinians are being threatened. How is the situation today any better than it has been for 30 years? It's still a cycle of violence. Tit for tat attacks that will go on until there's a comprehensive settlement. Force only reinforces the cycle.