Army Guy Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) Maybe we are tired of fighting these people with 2 hands tied behind our backs and are willing to tire anything to make the terror stop.... But then again why are they allowed to use torture in every day life without retribution. maybe we are becoming desperate torture. Edited May 27, 2009 by Army Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Are we making them become like us, or are they making us become like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Are we making them become like us, or are they making us become like them. This is the problem with the left, they see everything as a zero sum game. When the Nazis were goose stepping all over Europe and torturing/killing whomever, did carpet bombing make us like them? Did our belief system suddenly change? No, it simply showed that we were willing to risk our lives to stop Hitler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 This is the problem with the left, they see everything as a zero sum game. When the Nazis were goose stepping all over Europe and torturing/killing whomever, did carpet bombing make us like them? Did our belief system suddenly change? No, it simply showed that we were willing to risk our lives to stop Hitler. First of all, I am not "the left" talking nor am I the right. People who divide things into two separate camps tend to oversimplify everything. Its not just a simple matter of black and white, and that is your problem. Like George Bush your either with us or your with the terrorists. Its possible for something to be right and wrong at the same time, and that means a compromise depending on what our values are. Something will be gained, and something will be lost too. Can you fathom that? Because these are complex issues requiring thinking, not sloganeering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Are we making them become like us, or are they making us become like them. Can you not see how your comment is doing the very same thing? With this comment, it's either one or the other. We are making them like us OR they are making us like them, nothing inbetween. Like I said, this illustrates the left. They can not see anything else when it comes to the topic of torture. No inbetween at all. Which as I illustrated is wrong headed and short sighted. A complex issue requires more than knee jerk responses such as,"If we water board we will become like them". Like I said, carpet bombing Germany did not make us like Hitler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) Can you not see how your comment is doing the very same thing? With this comment, it's either one or the other. We are making them like us OR they are making us like them, nothing inbetween.Like I said, this illustrates the left. They can not see anything else when it comes to the topic of torture. No inbetween at all. Which as I illustrated is wrong headed and short sighted. A complex issue requires more than knee jerk responses such as,"If we water board we will become like them". Like I said, carpet bombing Germany did not make us like Hitler. Are you nearly done with the reductio ad nazium? Cause that is a real boring method of argument. Not everything equates to our response to Hitler. Hitler had a big army and highly advanced weapons, and invaded other countries and killed millions. On Sept. 11 a small group of suicide bombers attacked the WTC and klled about 2500 people. It doesn't quite compare. What I said wasn't just about waterboarding. We keep hearing about how they hate us for our freedoms, yet we are losing freedoms in our effort to fight them. The terrorists dont need to take our freedoms away. Fear and shortsightedness, and overreacting in our response is doing that well enough. Its not a christian problem though. I'm sure many christians are appalled by it. Edited May 28, 2009 by Sir Bandelot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Maybe we are tired of fighting these people with 2 hands tied behind our backs and are willing to tire anything to make the terror stop....But then again why are they allowed to use torture in every day life without retribution. maybe we are becoming desperate omg poor us. they're killing us alllll!!!! you're not fighting them with 2 hands tied behind your back. you're killing them by pressing buttons on planes, trains and automobiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) A complex issue requires more than knee jerk responses such as,"If we water board we will become like them". putting the moral and legal issue aside, it's been proven that torture does not work. U.S. intelligence officers say they have little—if any—evidence that useful intelligence has been obtained using techniques generally understood to be torture. It is clear, for instance, that Al Qaeda operations chief Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (KSM) was subjected to harsh interrogation techniques, including waterboarding. His interrogators even threatened, à la Jack Bauer, to go after his family. (KSM reportedly shrugged off the threat to his family—he would meet them in heaven, he said.) KSM did reveal some names and plots. But they haven’t panned out as all that threatening: one such plot was a plan by an Al Qaeda operative to cut down the Brooklyn Bridge—with a blow torch. Intelligence officials could never be sure if KSM was holding back on more serious threats, or just didn’t know of any. source Edited May 28, 2009 by dub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 what do people who 'interrogate' or interrogated for the U.S. have to say about this: it is easy to find experienced U.S. officers who argue precisely the opposite. Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea." or how about: Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop." Worse, you'll have the other side effects of torture. It "endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity." It does "damage to our country's image" and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit. Herrington's confidential Pentagon report, which he won't discuss but which was leaked to The Post a month ago, goes farther. washington post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 putting the moral and legal issue aside, it's been proven that torture does not work. It has been proven that torture doesn't always work. This is the practical interrogation consideration, not moral or legal issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Are you nearly done with the reductio ad nazium? Cause that is a real boring method of argument. Not everything equates to our response to Hitler. Hitler had a big army and highly advanced weapons, and invaded other countries and killed millions. On Sept. 11 a small group of suicide bombers attacked the WTC and klled about 2500 people. It doesn't quite compare.What I said wasn't just about waterboarding. We keep hearing about how they hate us for our freedoms, yet we are losing freedoms in our effort to fight them. The terrorists dont need to take our freedoms away. Fear and shortsightedness, and overreacting in our response is doing that well enough. Its not a christian problem though. I'm sure many christians are appalled by it. I said the left makes it a zero sum game, not you, although your comment was typical of a left sentiment. Whether you are bored or not, the fact remains that even though we carpet bombed Germany we never became like Hitler as the left is now shrieking about waterboarding. Just like while bombing Korea and Viet Nam never made the US like them. Your comment below is still wrong headed: Are we making them become like us, or are they making us become like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 putting the moral and legal issue aside, it's been proven that torture does not work. It's a good thing then that the US only waterboards and doesn't hurt people or otherwise torture them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Are we making them become like us, or are they making us become like them. Qutbism is hardly likely to become the norm in our society if three Al Qaeda executives are water boarded. Golly, you people with this idiot argument are out to lunch. Oh, has Obama stated that he will not use this technique - ever? From what I understand, his press secretary danced around the question when asked directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) Qutbism is hardly likely to become the norm in our society if three Al Qaeda executives are water boarded. Golly, you people with this idiot argument are out to lunch.Oh, has Obama stated that he will not use this technique - ever? From what I understand, his press secretary danced around the question when asked directly. I don't know how many have been waterboarded, or other methods such as were used in Abu Graib photographs... "you people with this idiot argument"... I asked a question, I never made the argument one way or another. Its a question we have to ask, to avoid becoming the thing we are fighting against. Seems like a fair question to me. We have to give up some freedom whenever we engage in war. The question is, how far do we go down that road, is it worth it? In some cases, yes. But not in all cases... thinking must be applied. War is serious business, and "The Government" is not the all knowing wise big brother you might believe. Its just a bunch of rich peoples kids who've been put in charge, and they can be just as dumb as anybody. Edited May 28, 2009 by Sir Bandelot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Dub: omg poor us. they're killing us alllll!!!!you're not fighting them with 2 hands tied behind your back. you're killing them by pressing buttons on planes, trains and automobiles. I wish that statement were true, but most of the time it comes down to us grunts getting off the bus and closing with and destroying the bad guys, with nothing more than my rifle and my trigger finger.... As for tying our hands behind our backs....ever been on the modern battle field....or are you one of those arm chair commando's you think they know what it is like to take a life, or engage an enemy that follows no rules, which is acceptable to Canadians ....but holy shit i even bruise a prisoner, and i go in front of a board of inquiry.....people back home scream Abuse....get the rope.... Maybe thats the problem, it always been our soldiers that pay the cost, maybe after this war touches you personally your attitude will change.....and you'll be screaming another tune.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 you people with this idiot argument"... I asked a question, I never made the argument one way or another. Its a question we have to ask, to avoid becoming the thing we are fighting against. Seems like a fair question to me.We have to give up some freedom whenever we engage in war. The question is, how far do we go down that road, is it worth it? In some cases, yes. But not in all cases... thinking must be applied. War is serious business, and "The Government" is not the all knowing wise big brother you might believe. Its just a bunch of rich peoples kids who've been put in charge, and they can be just as dumb as anybody. Perhaps we should ask those questions to the very young men and women that we will be asking to risk thier lifes for our little fight....I mean why get into a fight if your not going to win...or do what it takes to win....Those that think that the battle field is some arena where there is ref's and linesmen....there is not....War is a serious business and it is not won unless a nation is willing to do what it takes to do so.....and if it is not then it should consider not getting involved.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 AG...dub has no concept of warfare. Period. He's just a historical revisionist...you know...we started the Korean War...that sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Perhaps we should ask those questions to the very young men and women that we will be asking to risk thier lifes for our little fight....I mean why get into a fight if your not going to win...or do what it takes to win....Those that think that the battle field is some arena where there is ref's and linesmen....there is not....War is a serious business and it is not won unless a nation is willing to do what it takes to do so.....and if it is not then it should consider not getting involved.... i served in the former yugoslavia. the problem is that war is a serious business. you're lying to yourself if you think we need to be in the wars we're in right now in order to preserve our security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 i served in the former yugoslavia.the problem is that war is a serious business. you're lying to yourself if you think we need to be in the wars we're in right now in order to preserve our security. Ah...well. We have something in common. My uncle also served in the former Yugoslavia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 looks like Borg is reacting with sensitivity to this issue and spewing out self-made statistics.like what others do around the world changes the fact that majority of american christians approve of torture. contrary to what jesus says. Since torture is a fact of life in most if not all Muslim countries,why can't you ask the same question of Muslims?Does one seem to be the lesser of two evils? Have a nice weekend comrade dub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 served in the former yugoslavia.the problem is that war is a serious business. you're lying to yourself if you think we need to be in the wars we're in right now in order to preserve our security. Let me ask you this did you think being involved in Yugo had anything to do with preserving our security..... And while our current mission does make referecnce to our nations security i think the main reason we are over there is Canadians good will, assisting another nation in need....not for Oil, or resources....just assistance.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Let me ask you this did you think being involved in Yugo had anything to do with preserving our security.....And while our current mission does make referecnce to our nations security i think the main reason we are over there is Canadians good will, assisting another nation in need....not for Oil, or resources....just assistance.... No real soldier who is part of the noble and excellent marshall class condones cowardice - torture is cowardice personified - It was not the military who condoned this - nor was it approved by them - it was those lazy cowardly civlian corporates - the kind that go duck hunting drunk and put pellets in the face of a companion - never - blame the military for this poor behaviour - blame those bastards sitting bored in their ivory glass towers - who could not handle themselves in a street fight - but will give orders to torture - these are weasils..not men. We are better than that - America and Canada - as they de-evolve into shit - must be reminded what honour is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Let me ask you this did you think being involved in Yugo had anything to do with preserving our security.....And while our current mission does make referecnce to our nations security i think the main reason we are over there is Canadians good will, assisting another nation in need....not for Oil, or resources....just assistance.... No real soldier who is part of the noble and excellent marshall class condones cowardice - torture is cowardice personified - It was not the military who condoned this - nor was it approved by them - it was those lazy cowardly civlian corporates - the kind that go duck hunting drunk and put pellets in the face of a companion - never - blame the military for this poor behaviour - blame those bastards sitting bored in their ivory glass towers - who could not handle themselves in a street fight - but will give orders to torture - these are weasils..not men. We are better than that - America and Canada - as they de-evolve into shit - must be reminded what honour is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Let me ask you this did you think being involved in Yugo had anything to do with preserving our security.....And while our current mission does make referecnce to our nations security i think the main reason we are over there is Canadians good will, assisting another nation in need....not for Oil, or resources....just assistance.... it was a job and an experience. it could be argued that it was "noble" and helpful but it can also be argued that canada didn't have to be there, but being part of NATO, we were obliged to. plus, the money we spend on arming ourselves should be used somewhere, right? otherwise it would seem like we're wasting our money. back to torture: there are set rules of war. if you look down at those who break these rules (killing innocent people / torturing) then we owe it to our dignity to follow the rules. furthermore, when serbian civilians, afghani civilians or iraqi civilians see that the foreign soldiers are treating prisoners outside of the rule of law, which we've created and expect others to follow, then they lose respect for us and if you don't have the respect of the civilians, you cannot "win the war". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 The Nazis - made my mother as a teenager sit in ice water up to her knees - and they would toss her a raw turnip every couple of days - then some officer would put a gun to her head and rape her - as for my father - he watched as his father tossed a note down form his jail cell - saying "run - you do not know me - I am not your father" - then the communists shot him - He saw the collapse of Europe - the bombing of Berlin - starvation - he served where he could - and in the end - all I could say - was that cancer set in - and he died - a tortured man - both of my parents were in effect torture victims - and it was not fun as a child to see the suffering that really never went away - so I suffered also - for the evil perpetrated on my mother and father - those that think torture is fine - should go back to hell where they came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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