dub Posted May 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2009 Which boils down to you hijacking your own thread, if you were the one who invoked the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. almost every thread takes different courses and i wouldn't have been able to change the course without the help of my fellow hijackers, DoP, the extensional atheist who supports a jewish state and dancer, the guy who had the meltdown. oh and you, by posting the information below: I'm bringing it up because the Jewish state at least allows freedom of religion for its religious minorities, whereas some Arab states like Saudi Arabia, do not allow the practice of any religion other than their own, and regularly prosecute people for possessing bibles and other texts and icons of non-Islamic religions. The nations that border Israel harass their own religious minorities, and make no bones about trying to eventually drive them out of existence. In the context of religion, Israel is surrounded by enemies who will not allow Jews or a Jewish state to exist, even if it consisted of pre-1967 borders. I haven't heard a lot of talk of permanent two-state solutions coming from the Arab side since Anwar Sadat was shot. Up till now, Israel has been a modern secular state surrounded by Muslim zealots who want to eradicate their presence. And this never-ending hostility is showing signs of having effects on Israeli democracy and adherence to democratic principles, as the more liberal, secular Jews leave and are replaced by more and more Orthodox zealots, some of which are part of a temple movement that wants to blow up the Dome of the Rock mosque so they can build the Third Temple there. So, prospects for future peace don't look good. The rabbis who want to build a "Greater Israel" have growing influence among the ranks of the Israeli Army, and may have had an effect on the way Israelis conduct themselves in warfare: An Army of Extremists How some military rabbis are trying to radicalize Israeli soldiers. By Christopher Hitchens Monday, March 23, 2009, at 4:32 PM ET Recent reports of atrocities committed by Israeli soldiers in the course of the intervention in Gaza have described the incitement of conscripts and reservists by military rabbis who characterized the battle as a holy war for the expulsion of non-Jews from Jewish land. The secular Israeli academic Dany Zamir, who first brought the testimony of shocked Israeli soldiers to light, has been quoted as if the influence of such extremist clerical teachings was something new. This is not the case. http://www.slate.com/id/2214440/ Countercurrents.org Nazareth: Extremist rabbis and their followers, bent on waging holy war against the Palestinians, are taking over the Israeli army by stealth, according to critics. In a process one military historian has termed the rapid “theologisation” of the Israeli army, there are now entire units of religious combat soldiers, many of them based in West Bank settlements. They answer to hardline rabbis who call for the establishment of a Greater Israel that includes the occupied Palestinian territories. Their influence in shaping the army’s goals and methods is starting to be felt, say observers, as more and more graduates from officer courses are also drawn from Israel’s religious extremist population. “We have reached the point where a critical mass of religious soldiers is trying to negotiate with the army about how and for what purpose military force is employed on the battlefield,” said Yigal Levy, a political sociologist at the Open University who has written several books on the Israeli army. http://www.countercurrents.org/cook040209.htm extremism breeds extremism. it's a cycle. israel's extremism did not come about in the past decade. the illegal settlements and the refusal by israel to follow international law (1967 border) has helped fan extremism just like suicide attacks and rockets launched into israel. the conditions under which israel was created was forced upon the natives of the land. however, we're at a point where we cannot go back and fix this problem. we have to follow what the law says now if we want any progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 7, 2009 Report Share Posted May 7, 2009 ...the conditions under which israel was created was forced upon the natives of the land. however, we're at a point where we cannot go back and fix this problem. we have to follow what the law says now if we want any progress. Right...that's how we got Canada and the USA too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted May 7, 2009 Report Share Posted May 7, 2009 Lets see in school we had the strap applied to the hands and for serious offensed the rump. We were made to stand for long periods in the corner...had objects thrown at us. Knuckles rapped by yardsticks. Made to sit in front of the class with gum on our noses...made to do repetitive punishment assignments (lines)....all of which would be considered "Mild torture" If I understand your point, you and a few other apologists for the Christian Right, are trying to equivocate torture with corporal punishment (which isn't allowed today either BTW) Ever since these waterboarding stories first started to appear, the line from the right has been that it is a "difficult question" to answer whether waterboarding is torture and violates military conduct rules. These are the same people who get on the soapbox and proclaim absolute morality regarding issues like stem cell research, abortion and gay marriage -- but on this issue, the right wing noise machines have become moral relativists. Instead of following clear, moral principles like Christian right spokespeople claim to do, they are saying "well, maybe it wasn't exactly torture, and the ones who watch too many 24 episodes, tell us there are situations where the ends justify the means, and the rules go out the window -- well, from what I've seen so far, I'm betting that Dick Cheney's claims that he extracted essential information through waterboarding will vanish like a mirage, just like previous claims. Even if claims of valuable evidence were real, supporting torture would still be an example of Christians being moral relativists and not adhering to higher principles handed down from a higher power. It appears that Christian claims of having higher standards than unreligious or unchurched are groundless. Remember, this claim of higher moral principles was used to condemn a Brazilian woman for taking her 11 year old daughter to the hospital to have a life-saving abortion performed. It would appear to those outside of the Church's doors, that Christian absolute moral principles are those that suit their particular needs and desires at the time, and can be cast off like a dirty shirt, if they get in the way of some immediate purpose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted May 7, 2009 Report Share Posted May 7, 2009 israel's extremism did not come about in the past decade. the illegal settlements and the refusal by israel to follow international law (1967 border) has helped fan extremism just like suicide attacks and rockets launched into israel.the conditions under which israel was created was forced upon the natives of the land. however, we're at a point where we cannot go back and fix this problem. we have to follow what the law says now if we want any progress. It has been gradually growing for several decades, but right now Israel may be coming to a point where it will no longer function as true democratic state. For years, secular Jews have chafed at increasing demands of the Orthodox and increasing costs to support their religious education and organizations. The zealots who are expecting the Messiah, see the wars and conflicts with Arabs as a sign from above that they are carrying out God's Will, the secular Jews see a never-ending war, and after doing their time in military service, they are more and more demoralized at the prospect that their children and their children's children will have to enlist and fight the same battles that they did. The end result is secular Jews who look towards human solutions of problems feel like leaving, while the Messianic Jews are encouraged by wars and bloodshed. Final result is I believe most of your condemnations of Israel's conduct up till now, are biased in comparison to the conduct of the Arabs; but in the future, as Israel becomes more of a theocracy, they will act no better than theocracies of other religions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 7, 2009 Report Share Posted May 7, 2009 ....It appears that Christian claims of having higher standards than unreligious or unchurched are groundless. Remember, this claim of higher moral principles was used to condemn a Brazilian woman for taking her 11 year old daughter to the hospital to have a life-saving abortion performed. It would appear to those outside of the Church's doors, that Christian absolute moral principles are those that suit their particular needs and desires at the time, and can be cast off like a dirty shirt, if they get in the way of some immediate purpose! Who gives a shit about why the so called Christian Right feels as they do either way....the point is that there are some everyday people who also are not so impressed with pin prick whining of torture. And lets not forget that vacuum aspiration and partial birth abortions isn't torture either, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted May 7, 2009 Report Share Posted May 7, 2009 Who gives a shit about why the so called Christian Right feels as they do either way....the point is that there are some everyday people who also are not so impressed with pin prick whining of torture. For someone who claims to be an atheist, you sure carry a lot of water for the Christian Right. I guess your a "Karl Rove" type of atheist! That aside, we have to care what these people say since they have so much political and economic power. They are a destructive force that has ruined your country and is in the process of using the same strategies up here where I live. And lets not forget that vacuum aspiration and partial birth abortions isn't torture either, right? Talk about carrying water! This is exhibit A for the religious right's claims to higher moral standards. They teach adherence to a rule, whether it causes greater harm or not, and third trimester abortion is the best example, since most of the women who have these difficult to perform operations do so after learning that their pregnancies are either life-threatening or their fetus has severe birth defects. Rigid application of a moral law here would only cause potential deaths of pregnant women and the birth of severely deformed babies, many of whom will not survive anyway. So what good is this morality? Real morality should be based on principles like trying to provide benefit or reduce harm, not arbitrary laws written in dusty old religious books. And a principle that torture should not be used, regardless of the excuses, is one that should have been followed. What many of you rightwingers fail to understand is that once the genie is out of the bottle, there's no telling how it may be applied. Who says torture will only be used against bearded Arabs accused of being members of Al Qaeda. If it's allowed, there's nothing stopping the torturing of suspected drug dealers at home and eventually political enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 7, 2009 Report Share Posted May 7, 2009 For someone who claims to be an atheist, you sure carry a lot of water for the Christian Right. I guess your a "Karl Rove" type of atheist! I am not an atheist...I am a Pagan. That aside, we have to care what these people say since they have so much political and economic power. They are a destructive force that has ruined your country and is in the process of using the same strategies up here where I live. Yea...well, "they" helped to build the country too. Talk about carrying water! This is exhibit A for the religious right's claims to higher moral standards. They teach adherence to a rule, whether it causes greater harm or not, and third trimester abortion is the best example, since most of the women who have these difficult to perform operations do so after learning that their pregnancies are either life-threatening or their fetus has severe birth defects. Rigid application of a moral law here would only cause potential deaths of pregnant women and the birth of severely deformed babies, many of whom will not survive anyway. So what good is this morality? I have demonstrated that the application of moral law will always be lacking, regardless of left or right. That's why I don't play that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 I am not an atheist...I am a Pagan.Yea...well, "they" helped to build the country too. I have demonstrated that the application of moral law will always be lacking, regardless of left or right. That's why I don't play that game. He's right on that. With the maintainance of power comes brutality and injustice - it is common to all systems. Some have a vineer of civilization coating what is force - physical - judical and political...it's the same everywhere - so morality or doing what is right and good is cleverly ignored and or disguised in civility - a nation like Korea does not bother with such formality - we do - but in the core we are pretty much the same - The world MORAL and LAW never mix...and I will repeat the legalist line I heard that vexes me to this day - "It may be immoral but it's legal - that sums it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 I am not an atheist...I am a Pagan. Does that mean devil worshiper? I have demonstrated that the application of moral law will always be lacking, regardless of left or right. That's why I don't play that game. It's the most important game of all. Otherwise there is no point to politics and economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Does that mean devil worshiper? No...the abortion mongers worship him. It's the most important game of all. Otherwise there is no point to politics and economics. As always, I think you have things quite backwards. Take away economics, and we would see just how long your precious morality would last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 anyone want to go have some fun and go water boarding? cheney? as long as you get to have the fun though, okay? i'll strap you down, put a towel on your face and start pouring water on your head. so much fun! boy oh boy! just like when you used to get your head flushed down the toilet! maybe after we can go pray to jesus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 If there was any doubt that dub is a babbling idiot, there is no more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 anyone want to go have some fun and go water boarding? cheney? Sure...what do you have in mind? Me first or you first? as long as you get to have the fun though, okay? i'll strap you down, put a towel on your face and start pouring water on your head. so much fun! OK by me.....once you get past the initial reflex for respiratory arrest, it gets easier and easier. Many years ago, I was going through survival training at a "dunking" facility in Pensacola, Florida, and got tangled in my parachute cord after submersion in full flight gear. You'd be surprised how long you can hold your breath if you just relax. just like when you used to get your head flushed down the toilet! It was a urinal....with de-oderizer cake. maybe after we can go pray to jesus! Jesus didn't know how to swim...that's why he walked on water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 This is not funny - nor is the fact that somehow after 2000 years of progress we are back to banging each other on the head with a rock..wtf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 This is not funny - nor is the fact that somehow after 2000 years of progress we are back to banging each other on the head with a rock..wtf? That's right....remember Johnny Hart's "B.C." comic strip? Bonk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 That's right....remember Johnny Hart's "B.C." comic strip? Bonk! BC - looks like you have tossed your hands in the air and given up..that you have submitted to what is our new human condition and fell it is hopeless - so you laugh - but inside you weep in disappointment ...You can not hide what you really think and feel from me...humor will not conceal our plight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) BC - looks like you have tossed your hands in the air and given up..that you have submitted to what is our new human condition and fell it is hopeless - so you laugh - but inside you weep in disappointment ...You can not hide what you really think and feel from me...humor will not conceal our plight. You are half right kind Sir....I really do laugh my ass off....not much weaping (weeping)! Edited May 12, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Yah I refuse to cry also. I will not shed a tear again - Tears and care are not appreciated and there is little love, empathy or sympathy left in the world...welcome to the machine. As said in the Green Mile "They are killing us with our love and it's happening all over the world" The cruel ones control us though what we love - I will never cry again to satisfy the power that be - the live on blood and tears like vampires... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Good old Johnny Hart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Desperate people are people stricken by panic - a paniced person is not rational. So as for your herald - it's correct - that there is no crisis - just those that panic and insist that we suffer their panic with them - not a good idea..why sink the whole boat - just toss the one hysteric over board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) Desperate people are people stricken by panic - a paniced person is not rational. So as for your herald - it's correct - that there is no crisis - just those that panic and insist that we suffer their panic with them - not a good idea..why sink the whole boat - just toss the one hysteric over board. Heinz Guderian: One of the few Generals who could out-shout Hitler. Highly respected by his former foes, they'd meet post war to discuss the battles they'd fought. Edited May 12, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Desperate people are people stricken by panic - a paniced person is not rational. So as for your herald - it's correct - that there is no crisis - just those that panic and insist that we suffer their panic with them - not a good idea..why sink the whole boat - just toss the one hysteric over board. DoP is the forum's chicken little. he's also an existential athiest who supports the creation of a jewish state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 DoP is the forum's chicken little. he's also an existential athiest who supports the creation of a jewish state. Oh.... one of those Madonna cablist types that hate God - and feel they are so clever and we are dumb animals because we are poor liars and they practice deception like a damn religion... I get a kick out of people who function in the realm of = "I lied to him and he believed me - I am superiour and he is not" - then they justify their actions and imagine themselves important and intelligent because we trusted them..and they double crossed us in such a gleeful manner... Atheists and existentialist are jerks who do not want observe or adhere to law - so they make clever excuses....Philosophy has never saved the world..its all theory - at the expense of reality and truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) bc thinks waterboarding is like when his head was dunked into the urinals. this conservative radio show host probably thought the same thing before he tried: heh. Edited May 23, 2009 by dub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) bc thinks waterboarding is like when his head was dunked into the urinals. this conservative radio show host probably thought the same thing before he tried: dub sure wouldn't know the difference either way....but probably very experienced with peeing pants at the prospect. heh - heh Edited May 23, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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