Why do American Christians approve of torture?

[dub]

So, why would you bother starting a thread about that survey showing Christians approve torture, and turn it into another anti-Israel thread?

it started when DoP called himself an "existentialist atheist", which is when i asked him why he considers himself one when he supports a state that gives special privilege to someone who follows a particular religion.

And you receive special treatment in Saudi Arabia if you're a Muslim. There are lots of Christian countries in the world, and Israel is surrounded by millions of Muslims, many of which live in Islamic theocracies, but for some reason it's a crime to have one small piece of the MiddleEast set aside as a state for Jews!

i never said saudi arabia is not a religious state or that i support them. not sure why it's being brought up.

[dub]

And someone who eats bacon cheeseburgers at the pub on friday night during yom kippor is also covered....

yet I eat sushi, loved the seven samuria, have a Japanese sister in law, yet she can become a japanese citizen (and she hated the seven samuria) and I can't.....

Do you see perhaps how absurd you argument is.....that Israel is a religious state because it allows athiest jews to become citizens...

Oy vey! What a meshugeneh!

huh?

you're having a hard time comparing the two because they are different. don't pretend otherwise.

you can't convert to japanese by doing a religious ceremony, however, you can convert to judaism by doing a religious ceremony and then receive an automatic pass into the land of israel. don't pretend otherwise.

Edited May 7, 2009 by dub

[dub]

i'm glad dancer and DoP were able to learn something again, but back to the original topic; here is a fox news anchor giving his views on torture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmUTCqVblWw

[bush_cheney2004]

how about we go with the measure that the U.S. punishes others?

Don't forget the measure that the U.S. kills them to.

japanese soldiers were prosecuted and punished by the U.S. for using water boarding as a method of torture.

...and many other techniques as well. Not to mention keeping the medical data from human vivisection.

did your papa water board you? did he zap your balls with electricity?

Nope, we did that to ourselves just for fun.

did he tie your hands behind your back and make you sit on your knees for hours, while blasting horrible music?

That would have been my older brother.....Hendrix was not horrible!

this could explain why you're like this.

Could be, but it's not just me 'bro. Back in the day, it was all good, and frying pans were made of cast iron.

[dub]

Don't forget the measure that the U.S. kills them to.

...and many other techniques as well. Not to mention keeping the medical data from human vivisection.

Nope, we did that to ourselves just for fun.

That would have been my older brother.....Hendrix was not horrible!

Could be, but it's not just me 'bro. Back in the day, it was all good, and frying pans were made of cast iron.

that was fun to read.

the thing is, you're trying to give the impression that torture was okay back then and now we've become pussies by saying methods like waterboarding should be illegal.

the thing is that waterboarding and other torture methods have been illegal for a long time, even back then.

U.S. prosecuted the japanese soldiers for torturing U.S. soldiers. one of the torture methods that they were prosecuted for was waterboarding. if waterboarding was not considered torture, then it wouldn't have been listed as one of the reasons they were prosecuted.

[bush_cheney2004]

that was fun to read.

the thing is, you're trying to give the impression that torture was okay back then and now we've become pussies by saying methods like waterboarding should be illegal.

Close enough for government work....I'm just pointing out that the measure of what be "torture" is quite fluid and subject to all manner of political chicanery. Students of my age were routinely subjected to corporal punishment that would be embraced as 'torture" by today's "pussies".

the thing is that waterboarding and other torture methods have been illegal for a long time, even back then.

So what....government can afford the fine.

U.S. prosecuted the japanese soldiers for torturing U.S. soldiers. one of the torture methods that they were prosecuted for was waterboarding. if waterboarding was not considered torture, then it wouldn't have been listed as one of the reasons they were prosecuted.

They were prosecuted because they lost the war.

[DogOnPorch]

i'm glad dancer and DoP were able to learn something again, but back to the original topic; here is a fox news anchor giving his views on torture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmUTCqVblWw

That you're esentially a Jew-baiting Neo-Nazi? Guess we did learn something. Had you been a Muslim, I'd just be thinking you had a chip on your shoulder. But since you're not even religious...I guess I have my answer re: your politics.

[dub]

That you're esentially a Jew-baiting Neo-Nazi? Guess we did learn something. Had you been a Muslim, I'd just be thinking you had a chip on your shoulder. But since you're not even religious...I guess I have my answer re: your politics.

yes DoP. i'm a jew-baiting neo nazi because i point out that the label of 'existential atheist' that you've given yourself is silly since you support a state that gives preferential treatment to those who follow a certain religion.

/sarcasm

Edited May 7, 2009 by dub

[M.Dancer]

yes DoP. i'm a jew-baiting neo nazi because i point out that the label of 'existential atheist' that you've given yourself is silly since you support a state that gives preferential treatment that follow a certain religion.

/sarcasm

They giver preferential treatment to Muslim Israelis too....that sort of thing sometimes come with a liberal democracy

[DogOnPorch]

yes DoP. i'm a jew-baiting neo nazi because i point out that the label of 'existential atheist' that you've given yourself is silly since you support a state that gives preferential treatment that follow a certain religion.

/sarcasm

I have no doubt that you're a Jew-baiting Neo-Nazi.

Existentialist: Life has no particular special meaning.

Atheist: No, Virginia, there is no Santa Claus.

Parlimentary Democracy: Folks vote...religious or not. Just like Canada.

Preferential Treatment to those of a particular religion: Gaza, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, The Sudan...etc.

I hear they give the death sentance to those who sell land to Jews even in the West Bank.

Your defence of your buddies was...if I recall...is that it isn't often carried out.

Charming.

[dub]

Students of my age were routinely subjected to corporal punishment that would be embraced as 'torture" by today's "pussies".

like what for example?

They were prosecuted because they lost the war.

touche.

[sharkman]

yes DoP. i'm a jew-baiting neo nazi because i point out that the label of 'existential atheist' that you've given yourself is silly since you support a state that gives preferential treatment to those who follow a certain religion.

/sarcasm

Ah, no. You're a jew-baiting neo nazi because you started a thread on the views of American Christians and then started spouting off about jews. The first step is realizing you have a problem.

[DogOnPorch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7C8avvdzR4

[dub]

They giver preferential treatment to Muslim Israelis too....that sort of thing sometimes come with a liberal democracy

you're wrong about muslim israelis too, but that doesn't matter. you're trying to push the issue to another topic.

we're talking about immigration laws:

the israeli immigration law gives preferential treatment if you are jewish (inherently or by conversion). a muslim or christian will not receive the same treatment unless he converts to judaism.

[M.Dancer]

you're wrong about muslim israelis too, but that doesn't matter. you're trying to push the issue to another topic.

No I'm not. They have special releigious courts just for them.

we're talking about immigration laws:

No you are....for some bizarre reason in a thread you started about american christians.

[bush_cheney2004]

like what for example?

You are asking what forms corporal punishment took in North America? (that doesn't include public nudity in mandatory communal showers, also commonplace back then...but no necked man pyramids):

1. Detentions

2. Physical infliction of pain by methods approved for schools / districts (e.g. swatting, kneeling, isometrics)

3. Physical infliction of pain by unapproved methods (depends on the creativity of authority)

4. Physical restraint

5. Physical exhaustion with "exercise"

6. Psychological punishment and group humiliation

7. Denial of food & water

8. Loss of "privileges"

Sounds like the making of "Cool Hand Luke".

[DogOnPorch]

You are asking what forms corporal punishment took in North America? (that doesn't include public nudity in mandatory communal showers, also commonplace back then...but no necked man pyramids):

1. Detentions

2. Physical infliction of pain by methods approved for schools / districts (e.g. swatting, kneeling, isometrics)

3. Physical infliction of pain by unapproved methods (depends on the creativity of authority)

4. Physical restraint

5. Physical exhaustion with "exercise"

6. Psychological punishment and group humiliation

7. Denial of food & water

8. Loss of "privileges"

Sounds like the making of "Cool Hand Luke".

Did you see this? You might get a chuckle...

[M.Dancer]

Lets see in school we had the strap applied to the hands and for serious offensed the rump. We were made to stand for long periods in the corner...had objects thrown at us. Knuckles rapped by yardsticks. Made to sit in front of the class with gum on our noses...made to do repetitive punishment assignments (lines)....

all of which would be considered "Mild torture"

[dub]

i don't agree with everything he says, but hitchens is at least willing to make up his own mind instead of being a mouthpiece pussy like sean hannity:

from an earlier post:

Believe Me, It’s Torture

What more can be added to the debate over U.S. interrogation methods, and whether waterboarding is torture? Try firsthand experience. The author undergoes the controversial drowning technique, at the hands of men who once trained American soldiers to resist—not inflict—it.

it starts out like this:

It goes without saying that I knew I could stop the process at any time, and that when it was all over I would be released into happy daylight rather than returned to a darkened cell. But it’s been well said that cowards die many times before their deaths, and it was difficult for me to completely forget the clause in the contract of indemnification that I had signed. This document (written by one who knew) stated revealingly:

“Water boarding” is a potentially dangerous activity in which the participant can receive serious and permanent (physical, emotional and psychological) injuries and even death, including injuries and death due to the respiratory and neurological systems of the body.

it ends with this:

I passed one of the most dramatic evenings of my life listening to his cold but enraged denunciation of the adoption of waterboarding by the United States. The argument goes like this:

1. Waterboarding is a deliberate torture technique and has been prosecuted as such by our judicial arm when perpetrated by others.

2. If we allow it and justify it, we cannot complain if it is employed in the future by other regimes on captive U.S. citizens. It is a method of putting American prisoners in harm’s way.

3. It may be a means of extracting information, but it is also a means of extracting junk information. (Mr. Nance told me that he had heard of someone’s being compelled to confess that he was a hermaphrodite. I later had an awful twinge while wondering if I myself could have been “dunked” this far.) To put it briefly, even the C.I.A. sources for the Washington Post story on waterboarding conceded that the information they got out of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was “not all of it reliable.” Just put a pencil line under that last phrase, or commit it to memory.

4. It opens a door that cannot be closed. Once you have posed the notorious “ticking bomb” question, and once you assume that you are in the right, what will you not do? Waterboarding not getting results fast enough? The terrorist’s clock still ticking? Well, then, bring on the thumbscrews and the pincers and the electrodes and the rack.

here is the video of him being water boarded. is there really a debate?

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...ens_video200808

[bush_cheney2004]

Lets see in school we had the strap applied to the hands and for serious offensed the rump. We were made to stand for long periods in the corner...had objects thrown at us. Knuckles rapped by yardsticks. Made to sit in front of the class with gum on our noses...made to do repetitive punishment assignments (lines)....

all of which would be considered "Mild torture"

That's the spirit!

I would write my punishment lines vertically.....I....I....I....I....will...will...will....will ...not...not...not...not.....

[dub]

Lets see in school we had the strap applied to the hands and for serious offensed the rump. We were made to stand for long periods in the corner...had objects thrown at us. Knuckles rapped by yardsticks. Made to sit in front of the class with gum on our noses...made to do repetitive punishment assignments (lines)....

all of which would be considered "Mild torture"

any water boarding?

[bush_cheney2004]

Did you see this? You might get a chuckle...

Sorry DoP..I did miss that marvelous post and video.

I specifically remember having to sit naked on big blocks of ice with hands tied behind my back all while trying to extricate a candied cherry from the navel of a big hairy belly covered in chocolate syrup. As I delicately maneuvered my face and tongue to get the cherry, the fat man grabbed my head and pulled me in to his syruped belly. We laughed so hard we forgot it was "torture".

And I have a Polaroid to prove it.

[bush_cheney2004]

any water boarding?

Yes...but we didn't call it that. We called it "Water Skiing".

Seniors would take a freshman "pledge" and force his head into a urinal while continuously flushing the valve. You had to get the urinal cake in your mouth.

Another version involed two urinals and both feet...but you get the idea.

Great fun!

[dub]

Yes...but we didn't call it that. We called it "Water Skiing".

Seniors would take a freshman "pledge" and force his head into a urinal while continuously flushing the valve. You had to get the urinal cake in your mouth.

Another version involed two urinals and both feet...but you get the idea.

Great fun!

it does sound like a lot of fun!

we've all become such pussies.

[WIP]

it started when DoP called himself an "existentialist atheist", which is when i asked him why he considers himself one when he supports a state that gives special privilege to someone who follows a particular religion.

Which boils down to you hijacking your own thread, if you were the one who invoked the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

i never said saudi arabia is not a religious state or that i support them. not sure why it's being brought up.

I'm bringing it up because the Jewish state at least allows freedom of religion for its religious minorities, whereas some Arab states like Saudi Arabia, do not allow the practice of any religion other than their own, and regularly prosecute people for possessing bibles and other texts and icons of non-Islamic religions. The nations that border Israel harass their own religious minorities, and make no bones about trying to eventually drive them out of existence.

In the context of religion, Israel is surrounded by enemies who will not allow Jews or a Jewish state to exist, even if it consisted of pre-1967 borders. I haven't heard a lot of talk of permanent two-state solutions coming from the Arab side since Anwar Sadat was shot.

Up till now, Israel has been a modern secular state surrounded by Muslim zealots who want to eradicate their presence. And this never-ending hostility is showing signs of having effects on Israeli democracy and adherence to democratic principles, as the more liberal, secular Jews leave and are replaced by more and more Orthodox zealots, some of which are part of a temple movement that wants to blow up the Dome of the Rock mosque so they can build the Third Temple there. So, prospects for future peace don't look good. The rabbis who want to build a "Greater Israel" have growing influence among the ranks of the Israeli Army, and may have had an effect on the way Israelis conduct themselves in warfare:

An Army of Extremists

How some military rabbis are trying to radicalize Israeli soldiers.

By Christopher Hitchens

Monday, March 23, 2009, at 4:32 PM ET

Recent reports of atrocities committed by Israeli soldiers in the course of the intervention in Gaza have described the incitement of conscripts and reservists by military rabbis who characterized the battle as a holy war for the expulsion of non-Jews from Jewish land. The secular Israeli academic Dany Zamir, who first brought the testimony of shocked Israeli soldiers to light, has been quoted as if the influence of such extremist clerical teachings was something new. This is not the case. http://www.slate.com/id/2214440/

Countercurrents.org

Nazareth: Extremist rabbis and their followers, bent on waging holy war against the Palestinians, are taking over the Israeli army by stealth, according to critics.

In a process one military historian has termed the rapid “theologisation” of the Israeli army, there are now entire units of religious combat soldiers, many of them based in West Bank settlements. They answer to hardline rabbis who call for the establishment of a Greater Israel that includes the occupied Palestinian territories.

Their influence in shaping the army’s goals and methods is starting to be felt, say observers, as more and more graduates from officer courses are also drawn from Israel’s religious extremist population.

“We have reached the point where a critical mass of religious soldiers is trying to negotiate with the army about how and for what purpose military force is employed on the battlefield,” said Yigal Levy, a political sociologist at the Open University who has written several books on the Israeli army.

http://www.countercurrents.org/cook040209.htm