Unions Call for 'Buy Canadian' Policy

bjre · February 15, 2009

The standards in China are third world.

Please take a look at the following site to see how those 3rd world standard can compare with the city you are currently living.

Or if possible, plan a visit to China to see more if you don't just pick up only something like the homeless people wandering around Toronto's city hall all year long as the most main steam media here enjoy in or indulge with.

http://www.pbase.com/mgk54/random_pictures_of_shanghai

http://www.pbase.com/fangorangutang/beijing&page=all

http://www.pbase.com/mobby/shenzhen&page=all

http://www.pbase.com/markuseichenberger/be...lympic_stadiums

http://www.pbase.com/contikiwarren/shanghai&page=all

http://www.pbase.com/tientai/shanghai&page=all

http://www.savagexi.com/2007/07/19/what-to-do-in-shanghai/

http://china20.thechinabusinessnetwork.com...earl-tower.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chongqing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi%27an

http://www.discoveryangtze.com/Yangtzedisc.../zhengjiang.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangzhou

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27anshan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guiyang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qingdao

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuhai

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingyao

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xining

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiamen

Edited February 15, 2009 by bjre

M.Dancer · February 15, 2009

There is no bleaker world than the urban 3rd world....

whowhere · February 15, 2009

Strange, Olech, that you are against trade with China yet you buy their products.
I suspect that many Canadians who speak out against free trade are like you, in that respect.

There is a difference between exploitive trade and Free Trade. Name products eminating from Canada that are being sold in Countries where Canada has free trade agreements. When I say eminating I mean innovated, created, designed, engineered, manufactured, and exported. Resources don't count (ie oil and potash, etc, etc).

I doubt there will be much of a list. The companies that are in Canada are actually mostly foreign nationals located in Canada to take advantage of Nafta and Canada's lax immigration rules. Canada's whole model of prosperity was to exploit immigrant labor to drive increasing exports to the US. Now that the bubble has burst Canada is faced with realizing what a loser Country it actually is. Canada needs to pull up its boot straps and rely on its own efforts to prosper and pull itself up. To do that people are going to have to wake up and vote out the conservatives and find politicians who will represent them and not foreign fly by night corporations that are only in Canada so long as they are able to exploit Canadians with low wages and enjoy their access to the US market.

The reality is, Canada doesn't need a free trade agreement with the US because we have nothing to sell them other than shipping goods made by US companies in Canada to be then shipped to the US. What does that accomplish?

Does Canada really need its hand held by the US to show it how to work? Do Canada a service. Scrap the Free trade agreement. Canada doen't need it.

Michael Hardner · February 15, 2009

ww,

There is a difference between exploitive trade and Free Trade. Name products eminating from Canada that are being sold in Countries where Canada has free trade agreements. When I say eminating I mean innovated, created, designed, engineered, manufactured, and exported. Resources don't count (ie oil and potash, etc, etc).

I don't know... the Blackberry ? Before that, it would have been Nortel products... Massey Furguson ? Bombardier ?

And why don't resources count ?

I doubt there will be much of a list. The companies that are in Canada are actually mostly foreign nationals located in Canada to take advantage of Nafta and Canada's lax immigration rules. Canada's whole model of prosperity was to exploit immigrant labor to drive increasing exports to the US.

How's that ? Are automobiles being built mostly by immigrants ?

Now that the bubble has burst Canada is faced with realizing what a loser Country it actually is. Canada needs to pull up its boot straps and rely on its own efforts to prosper and pull itself up. To do that people are going to have to wake up and vote out the conservatives and find politicians who will represent them and not foreign fly by night corporations that are only in Canada so long as they are able to exploit Canadians with low wages and enjoy their access to the US market.

Corporations are only anywhere as long as they can make money and access the North American markets. I should think that Americans would be more angry than Canadians, even.

The reality is, Canada doesn't need a free trade agreement with the US because we have nothing to sell them other than shipping goods made by US companies in Canada to be then shipped to the US. What does that accomplish?

As it is with China to a degree as well.

Does Canada really need its hand held by the US to show it how to work? Do Canada a service. Scrap the Free trade agreement. Canada doen't need it.

I was against the FTA, but the economic collapse that was predicted didn't materialize. Instead, we have a global market where consumers have access to more goods. Our social safety net is good, and could be even better if it were managed better.

Oleg Bach · February 15, 2009

"Consumers have access to more goods" ?

Why do we have to be in a state of constant consumption anyway? Do those that consume need to have more to consume (goods)? Is this some sort of blessing where the quality and importance of life revolves around eating up material that a human body does not really need? It's time to look at the present system that has turned into a monster and that monster has turned on us and re-evaluate our habitualist behaviour. What is the point of existance of a living entity who's only purpose in the world is to eat and eat and eat material - microbes behave like this - as do all lower life forms - Human beings are supposed to have spiritual quailties and be non-material to some extent - angelic if you will to some degree. We are not dogs in a perpetual state of unconditional hunger.....or are we?

Topaz · February 16, 2009

There's nothing wrong with BUYING Canadian, or American its when you ONLY buy Canadian or US. When I`ve shopped I alway look and see where it was made, I buy Canadian first, US second and third is a toss-up.

Oleg Bach · February 16, 2009

There's nothing wrong with BUYING Canadian, or American its when you ONLY buy Canadian or US. When I`ve shopped I alway look and see where it was made, I buy Canadian first, US second and third is a toss-up.

Of course you buy Canadian --- we are a family ----does one walk down the isle and buy something made by a brother or do you buy something from a stanger? The brother - you know his work and it's quality - and when he benefits you benefit... But people are so materially driven they would sooner buy an import if it is 1 dollar cheaper but of inferiour quality - buy and imported razor - and it's like shaving with a sharp rock...our product is the best...why not have the best?

Michael Hardner · February 16, 2009

Why do we have to be in a state of constant consumption anyway? Do those that consume need to have more to consume (goods)? Is this some sort of blessing where the quality and importance of life revolves around eating up material that a human body does not really need? It's time to look at the present system that has turned into a monster and that monster has turned on us and re-evaluate our habitualist behaviour. What is the point of existance of a living entity who's only purpose in the world is to eat and eat and eat material - microbes behave like this - as do all lower life forms - Human beings are supposed to have spiritual quailties and be non-material to some extent - angelic if you will to some degree. We are not dogs in a perpetual state of unconditional hunger.....or are we?

I dunno, Olech, you're the one with Chinese peaches in your pantry...

If you want to deny people their WAL MARTS, then go ahead. But they sure seem to like them.

Oleg Bach · February 16, 2009

I dunno, Olech, you're the one with Chinese peaches in your pantry...
If you want to deny people their WAL MARTS, then go ahead. But they sure seem to like them.

You don't listen - I did not purchase the damned peaches...nor have I ever given Walmart a dime of my own money.. Your retorts are askew and mildly dishonest...If I want to put words in my mouth - I will do it - now retract your fingers before I bite them off.. :rolleyes:

Michael Hardner · February 16, 2009

Olech, Olech...

You don't listen - I did not purchase the damned peaches...nor have I ever given Walmart a dime of my own money.. tongue.gif Your retorts are askew and mildly dishonest...If I want to put words in my mouth - I will do it - now retract your fingers before I bite them off.. rolleyes.gif

I'm sorry, but I'm not the one whose cupboards are overflowing with peaches and rakes ! :lol:

I tease you, but I'm afraid the people have spoken. They will buy the products they want. While it sounds heartwarming and patriotic to say "buy Canadian", there tend to be a lot of inconsistencies in that approach. The argument that trade agreements need to wait until the other country has the same standards as Canada is tantamount to saying "we will never trade with them."

Wayne McQ. · February 16, 2009

I remember when Canada signed the F.T.A. and almost immediately Carter Ink Company announced the closure of their Canadian manufacturing operations citing that it had nothing whatsoever to do with the Free Trade Agreement. Carter Ink Company at the time owned outright such brand names as Gillette, Wilkinson Sword razors, Paper-mate, and other brand names. They were followed shortly by other manufacturing firms corporately owned by U. S. interests and only operating in Canada to avoid importation duties. I would bet that these same products are now being manufactured in China or some other 3rd World country where these corporate bums can exploit the labour force. Shame that it is we have allowed this to happen to ourselves. Has anyone tried recently to purchase a pair of runners or dress shoes for that matter at a Canadian retailer? I can tell you that I have and almost without exception the products are marked; "Made in China."

I find it funny when I hear these people of affluence dumping on Walmart for stocki8ng; Made in China," on their shelves, but upon checking in other retailers such as Sears, The Bay, Zellers, and virtually every other retailer, the only difference in identical products is that the prices are higher than Walmart. The same goods and the same inferior quality for even brand name products but the prices are far more inflated for in many cases the same models and brand name products.

The only way to send a message to these corporate bums is for Canada, the U.S.A. & Mexico to banned together and make a decision to buy nothing that is not manufactured in North America. The only thing that will make these corporate bums sit up and listen is to hit them where it hurts, in their pocketbook. When their shareholders discover that their dividends are worthless they will demand one of two options from these corporation, either move their operations back to North America, or go bankrupt. We have to start somewhere to recreate manufacturing jobs here or resign ourselves to seeing things continue to get worse, by even more jobs and services outsourced to the 3rd World. It's a choice we need to make for the sake of North America, or we will eventually find ourselves as little more than 3rd World countries with little or no social safety nets, due to lack of available tax dollars. Remember, the unemployed and those living in poverty, do not pay taxes!

Oleg Bach · February 16, 2009

You can not buy a pair of decent runners ---- You will look at one pair and say --- junk...the next pair -- junk! The next pair---Junk! and so on.....This affair began when some lofty SOB decided that the nation was kind enough to enrich him with it's domestic labour and resourses....owed NOTHING not even loyalty to no one...so he sold us out...talk about ungrateful and cold! So off this man went with his friends in tow to lobby the government so he could continue to become more powerful through cheaper labour abroad. This man then became even richer and had no regard for those he dismissed after they were used up----This phenomena is very similar to the dumping of Mexican slaves illegally into the southern end of America - there is only one reason for this...The Mexican elite have become so fabulously wealthy through cheap labour - that once they peaked they literally down sized and dumped what they percieve as human waste. Waste not worth feeding ----no so much as a damned thank you card for the work.

August1991 · February 17, 2009

I remember when Canada signed the F.T.A. and almost immediately Carter Ink Company announced the closure of their Canadian manufacturing operations citing that it had nothing whatsoever to do with the Free Trade Agreement. Carter Ink Company at the time owned outright such brand names as Gillette, Wilkinson Sword razors, Paper-mate, and other brand names. They were followed shortly by other manufacturing firms corporately owned by U. S. interests and only operating in Canada to avoid importation duties. I would bet that these same products are now being manufactured in China or some other 3rd World country where these corporate bums can exploit the labour force.

And I remember a time when I had to go to a bank teller on Friday afternoon to get cash for the weekend. Now, most people get all their cash at an ATM and never see a teller for weeks on end.

You talk of a few jobs at Carter Ink. How many bank tellers lost their jobs to ATMs?

Then again. Would you forbid ATMs because they eliminate jobs for tellers and "outsource" this work to a computer? (Slave labour? Computers and robots will work for nothing. How can Canadian workers compete against robots? By your logic, technology -robots, ATMs- will impoverish us since there will be no jobs. Cheaper computers will do everything.)

Wayne McQ, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. China isn't the problem. It's those damned computers: the very thing that you are using to post on this forum.

Edited February 17, 2009 by August1991

Michael Hardner · February 17, 2009

And don't forget the damn tractors too.

madmax · February 17, 2009

Ever since the invention of the wheel, and probably 10,000 years before that technology has changed the face of Labour.

There are reasons we don't have coopers and other trades that have been replaced through automation. Automation, computers, assembly lines, ATMs, etc, are all part of the changing labour market.

However, CHINA has these same technological advances. These advances do put many chinese out of work, because Foreign Capital now floods the regions with high tech capital expenditures. Low cost labour, little enforcement of quality, and some old style corruption, create the trade conditions of today. Few people care that 5,000 chinese miners were killed last year. Few people care how many die in the industrialization expansion. Just like few people care that hundreds of thousands of Chinese workers lose their jobs through technology. It is no different.

However, if you believe that Melamine and cyanuric acid are a great combo, then you can take comfort that all is well in CHINA.

Truth be told, I could replace a vast majority government office personell and use Chinas cheap bureacracy to replace them, too as it these people who are happy to see capital and jobs exported offshore.

Technology that has changed Automotive, the Robotics, newer processess, etc, took many an operation that required 1000s and reduced them to a few hundred. Staffing of White Collar Personel, was drastically cut in the 80s in what was termed "Downsizing" as computers became more effiecient.

Large technological companies have exported their work to 3rd world countries, and the investments that used to be done here, are now done there.

The Capital and technology to do this comes from (In many cases) North America. Thus we choose to make our workforce unemployed in these fields.

In short, messy as this post is,

Technological Change will occur and improve processes. However, if we export our technologies and processes and have little capital investment. We become a nation of warehousing and consumption, with less opportunities for technological development and capital expenditures.

People continue to be fooled by the name "FREE" trade. There is nothing Free about it, and the quid pro quo is hard to find.

GostHacked · February 17, 2009

I don't know... the Blackberry ?

Designed in Canada .. and yes a Canadian company ... I just cracked open my Blackberry .... MADE IN MEXICO.

eyeball · February 17, 2009

Technological Change will occur and improve processes. However, if we export our technologies and processes and have little capital investment. We become a nation of warehousing and consumption, with less opportunities for technological development and capital expenditures.

We also become more unemployed. I'm more interested in the moral imperative we place on employment and paying your own way in a world where unemployment could reach near epic proportions.

I've experienced the anger and depression that can attend not just unemployment but the complete loss of an occupation and I also saw my father go through this as a typesetter. I've known more than a few otherwise perfectly functional productive individuals struggle with feeling like and even being called a deadbeat. I've come across the word deadbeat at least a few times now in the media the last few months, sometimes in reference to people being foreclosed and thrown into the street, so its clear this potent judgemental attitude remains very strong. Judging by what I'm seeing where I live the impact of unemployment on individuals is still just as psychologically stressful and damaging as it ever was and probably even more so given the dismal prospect of a lengthy recession.

People continue to be fooled by the name "FREE" trade. There is nothing Free about it, and the quid pro quo is hard to find.

The recession aside, what happens if we follow this trend towards greater technological change and or eventual automation or export of just about every occupation that employs us while still imposing this moral imperative on everyone to be productive? The word free also incences many people especially in the context of getting something without having to work for it. I suppose if we ever did get to some point that there's just no need for most people to work the people who can't stand the idea will be driven completely nuts.

xul · February 17, 2009

Not always. lMy own experience was with the electronics manufacturing sector. So much of the assembly was done by robots that the extra labour costs were pretty well swamped out. Yet most of that industry fled the country over the last 10 years.

I agree with you that only blaming unions responsible for all problems here is unfair, but I guess you may agree with me that robots cannot run itself automatically when their operators strike. Just imagine, if you were the owner of a toy store, and just several weeks before Christmas, your Chinese toy supplier told you that he could not consign the goods you ordered in time because his workers was striking, would you be cheered by the news that Chinese workers eventually have the rights to strike and wait for some day the strike would end, or would you just turn to an alternative supplier in somewhere such as Vietnam?

Why? There are other things than labour that determine costs. Taxes, for one. Dollar difference, for another. China has a ridiculously low currency which it has steadfastly refused to adjust or to allow to float. Why would they? It gives them a tremendous competitive advantage.

Taxes are really problems and I'm afraid that after so many bailout and stimulus, Canadians will have to pay more tax henceforth than ever. :rolleyes:

I don't think "China has a ridiculously low currency which it has steadfastly refused to adjust or to allow to float" is entirely correct. I have just checked the data in Bank of China's website. On February 18, 2008, CAD100=RMB712 but today,February 18,2009, it is CAD100=RMB554, but I don't suppose the goods Canada exports to China will have a significant increase. There are lots of other things which can stop Canadian exports benefiting from currency devaluation. This, for one:

Canadian Embassy Beijing website

Considering most people here can not read those Chinese words in the website, I'd like to re-translate them into English:

"English and French are Canadian official language, though some of contents of the website has been translate into Chinese for convenience of Chinese visitors, but it dosen't mean that Canadian Government will offer services with other language." Wish Canadian firms don't use this way advertising in Chinese TVs and newspapers.(exactly I have never seen any Canadian firm's advertisement in Chinese newpaper except those immigrant lawyers's.)

And there also are a lot of stupid barriers set by western politicians against their own countries's exports. I have a Dell x51v PDA bought from a Chinese computer store several years ago. After I submit application of Canadian immigration, I found it is very helpful as a dictionary to learn English but the touch pen is too thin for hold, so I ordered several touch pens from Dell website and prepared to fix them into ball pens's hull for better hold. A day later, I received a urgent call from a clerk of Dell China. These are the conversation between us:

"We can not deliver the pens your ordered yesterday. "

"Why?"

"Becasuse your delivery address is your office address."

"Yes, but what's the problem?"

"Your company's name include a word 'aerospace', that's the problem. Our law forbids to export anything which would help Chinese aerospace technology."

"My company belongs to Chinese aerospace industry so it has a title of 'aerospace', but I just work on automobiles and vehicles. We make lots of products without any relative with aerospace at all. Just as not every GM worker is the F-16 maker, isn't it? and evenif I was a rocket maker, I still cannot see how Chinese rocket technology would be improved by these several plastic stick. "

"I knew...I knew..., but I'm afraid our senators don't know these. Could you please replace your office adress by somewhere else, such as your home address?"

Several minutes later, I had to give up and feel very sad for those Dell shareholders. I don't know how much profit Dell can gain from those cheap plastic pens, but I guarantee the phone call will cost more.

There was another story. One of my colleague ordered a pair of American made electric motors. They are just common motors used in electric vehicles, not those special ones used in gyroscope. Fully sure there was no problem of buying such motor, he began to design his mechanism according the technical specification in the website of the American company. But when it was nearly the delivery date, the Americans faxed him that they might not deliver the motors in time because some of them worried that this motor could also be used as military purpose(It's totally nonsense. A McDonald hamburger also may have military uses if it is in the mouth of a guy who wears a bloody uniform.), so they needed time to report authority to make sure the purchase would not harm American national security. For he had almost finished his design and lazing to make any change to fit an alternative motor, my coleague got an idea. He download a technical specification of a German made motor from internet and faxed to Americans telling them if there was any delay he would turn to German. Such action eventually helped him to persuiade those American MBAs pissed off their studpid politicians's measures and delivered goods in time. But after that, anyone don't surpose he will still use any American products if there was German, French or Japanese alternatives.

ironstone · February 17, 2009

"Buy Canadian" is bad policy,unless the Canadian product in question is the best available and provides the best value.This sends the wrong message to countries which buy our exports.Just more drivel from the powerful union bosses.I want the freedom to choose what I want to buy thank you very much.Protectionism is NOT the answer!

M.Dancer · February 17, 2009

I always buy Canadian, unless Blue or Moosehead is on sale.

Edited February 17, 2009 by M.Dancer

Oleg Bach · February 17, 2009

I always buy Canadian, unless Blue or Moosehead ios on sale.

:lol:

madmax · February 17, 2009

I don't think "China has a ridiculously low currency which it has steadfastly refused to adjust or to allow to float" is entirely correct. I have just checked the data in Bank of China's website. On February 18, 2008, CAD100=RMB712 but today,February 18,2009, it is CAD100=RMB554, but I don't suppose the goods Canada exports to China will have a significant increase.

Chinas currency was fixed to the US dollar. If the Canadian Dollar rose or fell, the renminbi would reflect what the US currency was doing. They export mainly to the US. Canada didn't matter. In IIRC 2005, the Chinese under pressure from the US, DODGED floating their currency, and moved up the value of the currency, by fixing it to the value of a handful of currencies. It is still fixed, just the basket is larger. So it went up a penny. Big F098ing deal.

Chinese currency is not floated on the open market.

Oleg Bach · February 17, 2009

Chinas currency was fixed to the US dollar. If the Canadian Dollar rose or fell, the renminbi would reflect what the US currency was doing. They export mainly to the US. Canada didn't matter. In IIRC 2005, the Chinese under pressure from the US, DODGED floating their currency, and moved up the value of the currency, by fixing it to the value of a handful of currencies. It is still fixed, just the basket is larger. So it went up a penny. Big F098ing deal.
Chinese currency is not floated on the open market.

Why does this system have to be so complex? Joe Average who IS the economy - does not have a clue to how international monetary systems work. This is ironic seeing that the biggest and most important particpants have the least knowledge - why is that? :lol:

bush_cheney2004 · February 18, 2009

Why does this system have to be so complex? Joe Average who IS the economy - does not have a clue to how international monetary systems work. This is ironic seeing that the biggest and most important particpants have the least knowledge - why is that?

Because somebody has to be the "rube".

Oleg Bach · February 18, 2009

Because somebody has to be the "rube".

Oh God ---- great humor...so were you watching me kick Guyser around the block? He was toying with me and wanting me to be the red neck hater and second rate white supremist rube - I refused to take the role - So I will make it a project to make HIM the rube.... They just don't get it...He who seeks to enslave a man always in the end - ends up serving the slave. Which makes this rube the master...