Keepitsimple Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) Hamas changed its charter 3 years ago regarding the destruction of Israel, the charter in your link is from 1988:Their victory in the Gaza election started the Israeli blockades given their hardline stance against Israel. After a tumultuous period of truce (where Israel wasn't completely innocent either, breaking the terms of the agreement numerous times) the rockets started. The rest we all know and here we are now with air strikes and a ground invasion. I'm not going to pretend Hamas are a bunch of peace-loving pacifists, they still support armed resistance according to their charter (as stated in the quote above), and they did their share of taunting Israel prior to the strikes. But if Israel won't recognise the democratically elected leaders of Gaza because of something that is no longer true (their uncompromising charter), we need to stop repeating that misinformation. Pretty ambiguous.....do you really think it's crystal clear that they recognize Israel's right to exist? Do you really think it's misinformation? I'd like to see their new "Manifesto" in writing - as the old one has been presented. Your article goes on to quote a Hamas representative, who says (my bold): Gazi Hamad, a Hamas candidate in the Gaza Strip, yesterday said the manifesto reflected the group's position of accepting an interim state based on 1967 borders but leaving a final decision on whether to recognise Israel to future generations."Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist," he said. "We cannot give up the right of the armed struggle because our territory is occupied in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. That is the territory we are fighting to liberate." Edited January 4, 2009 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 Hamas is a terrorist organization, don't negotiate with them just eliminate them. Quote
Kitchener Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) Those civilian casualty numbers? They only included women and children civilians. UN briefing transcript, Dec 29: [The Under-Secretary-General] said that, based on his latest information, there were 320 dead on the Palestinian side and 1,400 people injured. Based on UNRWA information, 62 of the casualties were civilian casualties, a count that included only women and children, and not civilian casualties who were men. On the Israeli side, two persons had been killed by rocket attacks. He did not have a number of injured people. The scale of casualties on the Palestinian side reflected that no matter how hard one tried to target, in a densely populated area such as Gaza, civilian casualties were almost impossible to avoid. A United Nations compound had been hit and badly damaged and one United Nations staff member and eight UNRWA trainees had been killed a couple of days ago...Responding to numerous questions about why only women and children were counted as civilian casualties, Mr. Holmes said the UNRWA figure of civilian casualties had been given to avoid accusations of exaggeration or unclearness about civilians, or others who might be Hamas militants. It was meant to give a credible, minimum figure. He knew that there were civilian men who had been killed, including one UNRWA staff. It was not meant to be “super considerate” of Israel, as one correspondent suggested. There were civilians killed who were men, but women and children were the only ones one could reasonably be sure were civilians. The given number was not based on a methodology, he said. Neither did he mean to say that all men killed were Hamas. Edited January 4, 2009 by Kitchener Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 Hamas is a terrorist organization, don't negotiate with them just eliminate them. I don't think anybody is protesting the actions against Hamas, just against the innocent civilians amongst which they are hiding. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 I don't think anybody is protesting the actions against Hamas, just against the innocent civilians amongst which they are hiding. They are called collateral damage. The cowards hide amongst them, that is why the IDF is going in on the ground. It is now urban warfare, where the Jews have trained for some time to reduce the damage to civilians by going house to house on foot instead of dropping bombs overhead at 500mph. Quote
BC_chick Posted January 4, 2009 Author Report Posted January 4, 2009 Pretty ambiguous.....do you really think it's crystal clear that they recognize Israel's right to exist? Do you really think it's misinformation? I'd like to see their new "Manifesto" in writing - as the old one has been presented. Your article goes on to quote a Hamas representative, who says (my bold): IOW, your mind's made up and you don't want to be confused with the facts. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 IOW, your mind's made up and you don't want to be confused with the facts. The fact is that Hamas were launching rockets into Israel without regard for the resulting damages. Gaza should consider itself lucky that Israel did not pour an equal percentage of their GDP into their little corner of the world with as much disdain for human life as they did. Quote
Keepitsimple Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 IOW, your mind's made up and you don't want to be confused with the facts. All I did was quote your own article - it seems that YOU are the one whose mind is made up. "Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist," he said. "We cannot give up the right of the armed struggle because our territory is occupied in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. That is the territory we are fighting to liberate." Quote Back to Basics
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 All I did was quote your own article - it seems that YOU are the one whose mind is made up. "Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist," he said. "We cannot give up the right of the armed struggle because our territory is occupied in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. That is the territory we are fighting to liberate." Another Arab genius. Lets throw rockets at Israel from Gaza to gain control of the West Bank! Me thinks the plan was a tad flawed. Quote
kimmy Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 1/3 don't recognise Israel, but that doesn't mean the same percentage are necessarily armed, does it? In any case, if you want to wait till 100% of Palestinians think alike, you might as well as admit it now, Israel has no intention of ever stop occupying the West Bank. As I was saying, it's not a question of unanimity or what percentage believes what. Undoubtedly many or most Palestinians would just like to get on with their lives, but their opinions don't matter, it only matters what the ones who are armed militants think. The views of peace-minded Palestinians will be irrelevant until the armed militants stop the attacks. And you'll notice that's something Hamas never agreed to. The articles about Hamas' friendly new philosophy that you keep posting all say that Hamas remains dedicated to armed "resistance". If it were a democracy, the support among everyday Palestinians for some kind of reconciliation with Israel would be an encouraging starting point for some kind of settlement, but it's not a democracy. It's not a democracy while there's armed militants using their neighborhoods as staging grounds for attacks and using their neighbors as human shields against the reprisals. And it's designed that way from the start. Hamas provokes Israel to the point where retaliation is inevitable, and makes political mileage from the civilian casualties that inevitably result. The civilians dying in this conflict are martyrs by someone else's design. That is after all, if you're buying into the whole security argument. I find it just a little too convenient that the West Bank happens to be the same Biblical land of Judea and Samara (West of the Jordan River) that some Jews believe is their God given land.I'm sure it's just a coincidence. Considering the Israelis agreed in principle to giving the West Bank to the Palestinians in the 2001 Taba talks, I don't think that argument holds water. Hamas changed its charter 3 years ago regarding the destruction of Israel, the charter in your link is from 1988:Their victory in the Gaza election started the Israeli blockades given their hardline stance against Israel. After a tumultuous period of truce (where Israel wasn't completely innocent either, breaking the terms of the agreement numerous times) the rockets started. The rest we all know and here we are now with air strikes and a ground invasion. I'm not going to pretend Hamas are a bunch of peace-loving pacifists, they still support armed resistance according to their charter (as stated in the quote above), and they did their share of taunting Israel prior to the strikes. But if Israel won't recognise the democratically elected leaders of Gaza because of something that is no longer true (their uncompromising charter), we need to stop repeating that misinformation. Coming from you, BC_Chick? Prior to the Canadian election you told me that you refuse to support the Conservatives because of stuff that some Reform types said back in the 1990s and because you still believe the party has racists in its midst. And yet you think the Israelis are "misinformed" for not wanting to recognize a group that until 3 years ago called for their complete destruction, and continues to stand behind terror attacks as a matter of policy? Really, Chick? Really? Even the new warm, fuzzy Hamas isn't exactly as conciliatory as you are trying to portray. Your own links don't support the claim that they've recognized Israel's right to exist. The position offered is a temporary truce based on the 1967 borders, with Israel's right to exist left as a question to be decided in the future. Are you really trying to portray this as something people would get behind if they weren't so ignorant? -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
jbg Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 That is after all, if you're buying into the whole security argument. I find it just a little too convenient that the West Bank happens to be the same Biblical land of Judea and Samara (West of the Jordan River) that some Jews believe is their God given land.I also think that Israel, an electoral democracy, would trade land for true peace. That means the peace of normal relations, of countries whose armed forces are rationally related to defense needs and not to offensive ambitions, and normal regional travel. It means, in short, peace; not a temporary cessation of hostilities for as long as the truce serves the Arabs' purposes.The only problem is that no one is suggesting that kind of peace. Even the so-called "Saudi proposal" didn't include an oil pipeline to Israel, which, under normal conditions would be a logical regional customer. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 The Saudis fund a goodly portion of the munitions for the enemies of Israel. They are no friends of the Jews. Sooner or later those folks will be exposed for what they really are. Quote
eyeball Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 The Saudis fund a goodly portion of the munitions for the enemies of Israel. They are no friends of the Jews. The friends of Israel fund the Saudis. Go figure. Sooner or later those folks will be exposed for what they really are. And it won't make a bit of difference. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
kuzadd Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 If the Israelis really wanted peace would they have done this? Israeli army trained in Gaza mock-up Posted Mon Jan 5, 2009 8:09am AEDT The Israeli army spent 18 months training for its ground attack against Gaza on a model of the main city built at a desert army base, a military spokesman said."Our soldiers know all the back streets where their targets are," military spokesman Avi Benayahou told Israeli public television. "For a year and a half our soldiers trained on a reduced model of Gaza City built on the Tsehilim base" in the Negev desert of southern Israel, near the frontier with Gaza, he added. IDF trained for 18 months for the attack, and time to construct the mock city, so how long have they planned for this attack , that was because of alleged rocket fires? Though Israeli media has noted it was Israel that broke the ceasefire. This has alot to do with politics, no it has everything to do with politics and elections. The usual bullshit in other words, save for the slaughter of Palestinians, that is all to real. including a school Israeli bombs hits UN school and of course the country that always wants peace... being completely facetious here Israel rejects push for Gaza cease-fire Isn't that the second request for a truce now rejected, well, onward ho, there are woman and children to kill, schools and hospitals to attack. Israeli PM rejects EU request for temporary ceasefire and as Eric Margolis points out: There are two completely different versions of what is currently happening in Gaza. One already so familiar to consumers of NA media Civilians suffer, says Israel, because the cowardly Hamas hide among them.Actually, it is more like shooting fish in a barrel. As usual, this cartoon-like version of events omits a great deal of nuance and background. yet that is the version loved by so many ignorant persons, the cartoon version. While firing rockets at civilians is a crime so, too, is the Israeli blockade of Gaza, which is an egregious violation of international law and the Geneva Conventions.According to the UN, most of Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinian refugees subsist near the edge of hunger. Seventy per cent of Palestinian children in Gaza suffer from severe malnutrition and psychological trauma. Medical facilities are critically short of doctors, personnel, equipment, and drugs. Gaza has quite literally become a human garbage dump for all the Arabs that Israel does not want. Gaza is one of the world's most-densely populated places, a vast outdoor prison camp filled with desperate people. In the past, they threw stones at their Israeli occupiers; now they launch homemade rockets. Call it a prison riot, writ large. Because Israel infact controls gaza, like one big open air prison camp. It controls everything that goes in that country and Israel has been denying Gaza's inhabitants the most basic of necessities for months and months now, in fact starving the people. Israel's hopes that it can bomb Gazans into rejecting Hamas are as ill-conceived as its failed attempt in 2006 to blast Lebanon into rejecting Hezbollah.The Fatah regime on the West Bank installed by the US and Israel after Yasser Arafat's suspicious death will be further discredited, leaving the militants of Hamas as the sole authentic voice of Palestinian nationalism. puppets Hamas, the militant but still democratically elected government of Gaza, is even less likely to compromise. The Muslim world is in a rage. But so what? Stalin liked to say "the dogs bark, and the caravan moves on," and as long as the US gives Israel carte blanche, it can do just about anything it wants. The tragedy of Palestine will thus continue to poison US relations with the Muslim world. Those Americans who still do not understand why their nation was attacked on 9/11 need only look to Gaza, for which the US is now being blamed as much as Israel. Unless Israel can make 5 to 7 million Palestinians disappear, it must find some way to coexist with them. Israeli leaders on the center and right continue to avoid facing this fact. The brutal collective punishment inflicted on Gaza will likely strengthen Hamas and reverse any hopes of a Middle East peace in the coming years. perhaps that is exactly what Israel is trying to do, right under the world's noses. Quote Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person's character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions. Derogatory terms such as "loser", "idiot", etc are not permitted unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Rule of thumb: Play the ball, not the person (i.e. tackle the argument, not the person making it).
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 ...Because Israel infact controls gaza, like one big open air prison camp.It controls everything that goes in that country and Israel has been denying Gaza's inhabitants the most basic of necessities for months and months now, in fact starving the people. Gee, I seem to recall that Gaza also has a border with Egypt....a closed border that is. I wonder why Egypt didn't get 5000 rockets? perhaps that is exactly what Israel is trying to do, right under the world's noses. Let's hope so. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GostHacked Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 I also think that Israel, an electoral democracy, would trade land for true peace. lolololololololololol Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 lolololololololololol Camp David 2000 for example. ------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
jbg Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 If the Israelis really wanted peace would they have done this?Israeli army trained in Gaza mock-up Posted Mon Jan 5, 2009 8:09am AEDT IDF trained for 18 months for the attack, and time to construct the mock city, so how long have they planned for this attack , that was because of alleged rocket fires? Though Israeli media has noted it was Israel that broke the ceasefire. This has alot to do with politics, no it has everything to do with politics and elections. The usual bullshit in other words, save for the slaughter of Palestinians, that is all to real. I think it was perfectly predictable, probably from the get-go but certainly from the time of Hamas' "election" that the area was going to pose mortal dangers for Israel. Was Israel duty-bound to sit there and wait for tragedy to strike? Isn't that what conspiracy theorists are accusing the U.S. of doing vis a vis the September 11 attacks? I guess the West cannot get it right and the only thing that would make some happy would be to succumb to barbarian invasion. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 Camp David 2000 for example.------------------------- It's a Daisy. And especially Camp David 1978. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 I am willing to bet this assault will go on until at least the end of the month. Quote
eyeball Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 I am willing to bet this conflict will continue for the rest of your life and beyond. I can't see it lasting more than a couple of thousand years though. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 ...I guess the West cannot get it right and the only thing that would make some happy would be to succumb to barbarian invasion. But it's all right now I learned my lesson well You see, ya can't please everyone So ya got to please yourself - Ricky Nelson Garden Party Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
M.Dancer Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) glbbx....... Edited January 6, 2009 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) Of the four final possibilities, that is not the worst. Edited January 6, 2009 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
myata Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 You see, ya can't please everyoneSo ya got to please yourself - Ricky Nelson Garden Party Exactly. And hardly a secret to anybody. The official moral humanity talk is only for the feeble of mind. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
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