Israelis want peace you say?

[DogOnPorch]

Either way, the shooting has started again. But, anyone could see this one coming from miles yonder.

At least 155 die as Israel launches air strikes on Gaza

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/12/27/gaza.html

------------------------------

We do not rejoice in victories. We rejoice when a new kind of cotton is grown and when strawberries bloom in Israel.

---Golda Meir

[moderateamericain]

Either way, the shooting has started again. But, anyone could see this one coming from miles yonder.

At least 155 die as Israel launches air strikes on Gaza

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/12/27/gaza.html

------------------------------

We do not rejoice in victories. We rejoice when a new kind of cotton is grown and when strawberries bloom in Israel.

---Golda Meir

They Fired at military targets and also Hamas had fired nearly 300 rockets at Israel before they responded.

[BC_chick]

They Fired at military targets and also Hamas had fired nearly 300 rockets at Israel before they responded.

Right. Gazans are kept in a ghetto, not allowed to leave even for medical purposes, food supplies are cut, people are malnourished and dying, and when Hamas ends the cease fire and starts to fire rockets into civilian areas, they are terrorists.

Israel responds by bombing civilian areas without warning, 200 people are killed (so far) and they are merely defending themselves.

No double-standard there.

[moderateamericain]

Right. Gazans are kept in a ghetto, not allowed to leave even for medical purposes, food supplies are cut, people are malnourished and dying, and when Hamas ends the cease fire and starts to fire rockets into civilian areas, they are terrorists.

Israel responds by bombing civilian areas without warning, 200 people are killed (so far) and they are merely defending themselves.

No double-standard there.

If you read the article it said they fired at PSF and Hamas infastructure. Civilian casualties are a bi product of Hamas long standing policy of using civilians as shields to attack from. (Missle fire from a church, school, etc) It also does not make clear out of the dead how many were actually civilians versus Hamas or Palastine security force personel.

[BC_chick]

If you read the article it said they fired at PSF and Hamas infastructure. Civilian casualties are a bi product of Hamas long standing policy of using civilians as shields to attack from. (Missle fire from a church, school, etc) It also does not make clear out of the dead how many were actually civilians versus Hamas or Palastine security force personel.

Whenever these types of conflicts start, I read both Israeli media as well as Arab one, and balance it out by reading the BBC. There's usually quite a difference in the number of civilian deaths... though in this particular case, I agree, it's much too early to start saying they were Hamas or civlians. We'll have to wait and see in the aftermath. Keep in mind though that from the Israeli perspective, it's never civilians that die. It's later on that 'oopsie, we missed' surfaces.

In any case, I think you missed the point. After 18 months of blockade and suffering, one side finds its people in danger and start firing at the other side. They're considered terrorists. The other side now finds its people in danger and start firing back and they're protecting themselves. If it's fair game to terrorise the other side in the name of protecting your people, how come Palestinians aren't entitled to the same right? Are their lives not worth the same as Israeli lives?

Oh, and for the record, I don't think either are protecting their people.... both sides are terrorists for showing such little regard for civilian life. It just so happens that one side is more organised militarily.

Edited to add: the 'other' perspective

Edited December 27, 2008 by BC_chick

[moderateamericain]

Whenever these types of conflicts start, I read both Israeli media as well as Arab one, and balance it out by reading the BBC. There's usually quite a difference in the number of civilian deaths... though in this particular case, I agree, it's much too early to start saying they were Hamas or civlians. We'll have to wait and see in the aftermath. Keep in mind though that from the Israeli perspective, it's never civilians that die. It's later on that 'oopsie, we missed' surfaces.

In any case, I think you missed the point. After 18 months of blockade and suffering, one side finds its people in danger and start firing at the other side. They're considered terrorists. The other side now finds its people in danger and start firing back and they're protecting themselves. If it's fair game to terrorise the other side in the name of protecting your people, how come Palestinians aren't entitled to the same right? Are their lives not worth the same as Israeli lives?

Oh, and for the record, I don't think either are protecting their people.... both sides are terrorists for showing such little regard for civilian life. It just so happens that one side is more organised militarily.

Edited to add: the 'other' perspective

I agree probably too early to sipher through the propoganda by either the Jews or the Muslims. However I maintan while its easy to identify an Jewish Military target. it is not so easy with the PLO and Hamas. At what point does a building become a viable military target? Is it when it is used in an offensive capacity? Or as a training site for suicide bombers? Who decides at what point is it "Okay" to fire at a school that has launched 20 or so missles at you over a month period (im using that as an example). The best thing for the Arabs to do would be to cave to every demand the Jews make, and get back to peace. The Jews need to restore electricity and commerce to the region.

More INFO

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1868829,00.html

Edited December 27, 2008 by moderateamericain

[scribblet]

Either way, the shooting has started again. But, anyone could see this one coming from miles yonder.

At least 155 die as Israel launches air strikes on Gaza

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/12/27/gaza.html

------------------------------

We do not rejoice in victories. We rejoice when a new kind of cotton is grown and when strawberries bloom in Israel.

---Golda Meir

Yup, and "Palestine' was given plenty of warning to quit firing the rockets or else !!

As usual the 'breaking story' at CNN showed photos of grieving "victims", but no mention of the hundreds of rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel - can't talk about that one now, can we.

[DogOnPorch]

BC Chick: Right. Gazans are kept in a ghetto, not allowed to leave even for medical purposes, food supplies are cut, people are malnourished and dying, and when Hamas ends the cease fire and starts to fire rockets into civilian areas, they are terrorists.

Israel responds by bombing civilian areas without warning, 200 people are killed (so far) and they are merely defending themselves.

No double-standard there.

BC Chick...how many countries border Gaza? The answer is two: Isreal and Egypt (I'll save you some time). Seems Egypt has a vested interest in keeping Gaza 'a ghetto' as well as the evil Zionists. They keep their border shut, as well. No double standard there, either. It seems odd to me that pro-Arab supporters such as yourself expect Israel to supply its enemies when the Palestinian Arab's own Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian brothers couldn't be bothered.

BTW...Israel warned the strikes were coming. For the last several days it has been a constant 'stop shooting missiles or bad things will happen' from Israel. No doubt, with Christmas, you just missed that part. Hamas ignored and kept shooting katushyas. One gets what one pays for...

-----------------------------------------------------------

If Time = Money and Money = Pizza then Time = Pizza

[bush_cheney2004]

In any case, I think you missed the point. After 18 months of blockade and suffering, one side finds its people in danger and start firing at the other side....

Of course...a perfectly reasoned response...that started long before so much boo-hoo "suffering"....the only responsible thing to do is launch rockets. I think Detroit should start launching at Windsor today!

[BC_chick]

BC Chick...how many countries border Gaza? The answer is two: Isreal and Egypt (I'll save you some time). Seems Egypt has a vested interest in keeping Gaza 'a ghetto' as well as the evil Zionists. They keep their border shut, as well. No double standard there, either. It seems odd to me that pro-Arab supporters such as yourself expect Israel to supply its enemies when the Palestinian Arab's own Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian brothers couldn't be bothered.

Egypt has been turning a blind eye to the tunnels that are keeping Gaza alive. Ironically, if Israel had not imposed the blockades, Egypt would be in a better position to monitor what goes into region and to make sure arms are not being smuggled in as well.

In any case, my question remains... after 18 months of blockades that resulted in a humanitarian crisis while Israel thumbed its nose at international pressure to stop, why don't Palestinians have a right to defend themselves the way Israelis do? Are their lives worth less?

[Riverwind]

Egypt has been turning a blind eye to the tunnels that are keeping Gaza alive.

This article is interesting:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/...tr=HOME_3747342

Privately, several Israeli officials have said Wednesday's breach of the Gaza-Egypt border by Palestinian militants was a positive development that would ease pressure on Israel to keep providing for Gaza's basic needs, and could pave the way for increasingly disconnecting from the territory.

...

On the Gaza-Egypt border, Egyptian border guards began trying to control the masses of Palestinians flooding across the border for a second day Thursday, stopping some from moving deeper into Egypt, but not attempting to reseal the border.

So the question becomes: if the Egyptians are so concerned about the welfare of Gaza why don't they take responsibility for it. The Israelis seem to be open to the idea.

[BC_chick]

This article is interesting:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/...tr=HOME_3747342

So the question becomes: if the Egyptians are so concerned about the welfare of Gaza why don't they take responsibility for it. The Israelis seem to be open to the idea.

I can't say I blame them, any wrongdoing in the region after that would be the pretext for occupying their country again. They lost Sinai once... meanwhile Israel still occupies the Golan Heights and the Sheba Farms of Southern Lebanon...

Besides, why should Egypt or Israel take responsibility for Gaza, what's wrong with self-determination? Oh that's right, Gazans elected Hamas, and Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's right to exist without Israel first declaring what its borders are.

Edited December 28, 2008 by BC_chick

[Riverwind]

Besides, why should Egypt or Israel take responsibility for Gaza, what's wrong with self-determination? Oh that's right, Gazans elected Hamas, and Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's right to exist without Israel first declaring what its borders are.

Self-determination without welfare from a larger state? Not a chance. Palistine is not a viable independent entity. Isreal supports it only because it knows the alternative would even be worse. Edited December 28, 2008 by Riverwind

[BC_chick]

Self-determination without welfare from a larger state? Not a chance. Palistine is not a viable independent entity.

Well that's your opinion with which I disagree.

Nevertheless, so because Egypt refuses to risk another occupation and Hamas won't recognise Israel's right to exist without first knowing what that right entails, are you saying that it's acceptable to starve the people of Gaza and then go on a rampage when, after 18 months of the world turning a blind eye to their destitution, they take matters into their own hands?

[Wild Bill]

Well that's your opinion with which I disagree.

Nevertheless, so because Egypt refuses to risk another occupation and Hamas won't recognise Israel's right to exist without first knowing what that right entails, are you saying that it's acceptable to starve the people of Gaza and then go on a rampage when, after 18 months of the world turning a blind eye to their destitution, they take matters into their own hands?

Where are you getting this idea that Hamas will recognize Israel under some kind of conditions? Have you a cite or two for this?

I had thought it was common knowledge that Hamas has stated firmly several times that they do not recognize Israel in any way, shape or form and desire only to wipe it from the earth!

You are the first to ever suggest anything different to my ears or eyes. Perhaps you could back your claim up a bit and perhaps educate me.

[BC_chick]

Where are you getting this idea that Hamas will recognize Israel under some kind of conditions? Have you a cite or two for this?

I had thought it was common knowledge that Hamas has stated firmly several times that they do not recognize Israel in any way, shape or form and desire only to wipe it from the earth!

You are the first to ever suggest anything different to my ears or eyes. Perhaps you could back your claim up a bit and perhaps educate me.

Googling is a wonderful thing.

[capricorn]

This article is interesting:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/...tr=HOME_3747342

So the question becomes: if the Egyptians are so concerned about the welfare of Gaza why don't they take responsibility for it. The Israelis seem to be open to the idea.

Yes, that's very interesting. Here's another article along the same line.

Washington and other capitals should declare the experiment in Gazan self-rule a failure and press President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt to help, perhaps providing Gaza with additional land or even annexing it as a province. This would revert to the situation of 1948-67, except this time Cairo would not keep Gaza at arm's length but take responsibility for it.

Culturally, this connection is a natural: Gazans speak a colloquial Arabic identical to the Egyptians of Sinai, have more family ties to Egypt than to the West Bank, and are economically more tied to Egypt (recall the many smugglers' tunnels). Further, Hamas derives from an Egyptian organization, the Muslim Brethren. As David Warren of the Ottawa Citizen notes, calling Gazans "Palestinians" is less accurate than politically correct.

Why not formalize the Egyptian connection? Among other benefits, this would (1) end the rocket fire against Israel, (2) expose the superficiality of Palestinian nationalism, an ideology under a century old, and perhaps (3) break the Arab-Israeli logjam.

It's hard to divine what benefit American taxpayers have received for the US$65 billion they have lavished on Egypt since 1948; but Egypt's absorbing Gaza might justify their continuing to shell out $1.8 billion a year.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5426

BTW I also wasn't aware that the US sends money annually to Egypt. Hmmm...

And this from a link in the above article which hints at why Egypt is less than forthcoming to take over Gaza.

The antecedents of Hamas are the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, and there should be no illusions about them. The Egyptians themselves know what they are dealing with, and that is why the Egyptian government was maintaining a wall between Gaza and current Egyptian territory even more formidable than the wall Israel maintains. For Gaza has become a cancer that threatens the domestic peace of Egypt more than Israel -- whereinto Hamas merely lobs Kassam missiles.

http://www.canada.com/components/print.asp...63-a529bdd35045

It's easy to see where Egypt is coming from.

[BC_chick]

Wild Bill, I remember even starting a thread on it way back when...

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....showtopic=11192

[scribblet]

Since 2005, when Israel left Gaza, and Gaza was considered 'Jew-Free', the Muslims of Gaza have attacked Israel's families with over thousands of missiles! Years of constant attacks on Israel by the racists of Gaza went unanswered until now, Israel has had enough, they have a right to fight back.

How many Muslim, Jewish, Christians or Hindu children will have to die before the Muslimworld decides that it is better to live at peace with other religions and races, rather than live in hatred, racism, misery and violence?

Qassam rockets land in western Negev, no injuries

Palestinians once again fire rockets towards southern Israel from Gaza, tally at over 20 since beginning of ceasefire with Hamas 08.22.08, 21:32 / Israel News

Israel is under constant rocket attacks, this is Dec. 17th

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3640288,00.html

Sderot under fire: 3 hurt in rocket strike

Further escalation in south: More than 20 Qassams fired at southern Israeli communities Wednesday; Rocket explodes in Sderot parking lot, three people sustain light wounds. Defense Minister Barak: We'll operate in Gaza when time is right

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473167,00.html

It is about time that Hamas is condemned the constant attacks against Israel and for years of trying to kill Jews and/or destroy Israel.

The Muslim World has tried to murder all Jewish people for over 60 years. Five times over Muslims tried to destroy Israeland five times they failed. When Muslim armies couldn't kill them off, they flooded Gaza and the West Bank with Muslim settlers and Muslim terrorists There will only be peace when Muslims become tolerant of other religions.

[BC_chick]

It is about time that Hamas is condemned the constant attacks against Israel and for years of trying to kill Jews and/or destroy Israel.

Most of the people who condemn Israel condemn Hamas as well. As I stated earlier, it's a double-standard to say Israel has a right to protect itself when Gazans don't, either both have a right to defend themselves or both are acting without regard to civilian life. However, I went on to say that I fall into the latter group, I think both are behaving like terrorists for showing such little regard for human life.

That's the difference between those who oppose Israel's questionable methods of protecting itself and people like you. Most of us see the two sides as equally complicit.

I happen to think suicide bombings are a war crime. Are you willing to admit that the same can be said of cluster bombs?

[NanaimoConservative]

Israel left the Gaza strip in 2005 to promote peace. That wasn't good enough for the Palestinians and they attacked Israel. Palestinians do not want peace, they only want Israel gone. A Hamas spokesperson said on a Gaza radio station "Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood,"

The violence against Israel will NEVER end with Palestinians in the region. I support any actions Israel needs to use to protect themselves and bring peace and stability to the region.

[scribblet]

Exactly !! I see little condemnation anywhere for Palestinian attacks which happen daily, the only time people speak up is when Israel retaliates. They seem to think it is so sad when Palestinian civilians are victims, but not a single comment when Israeli civilians are the victims- pretty duplicitous.

Where were you all last week when hundreds of rockets were fired on Israeli civilian towns and at kindergartens? Where have you been the last 8 years over 10,000 have been fired from Gaza?

The Palestinians think that they are smart supporting and voting for Hamas but do nothing to stop the rocket attacks on Israel. Then they whine and bitch when Israel fights back. They are a terrorist state, they have made their bed, they can lie in or work towards peace.

BTW, Israel does not deliberately target civilians, Palestinians do.

[Argus]

Most of the people who condemn Israel condemn Hamas as well.

Really? When was the last time you or any of the others who attack Israel ever posted here after some Palestinian outrage or other to criticize them for bombing pizza shops, firing mortars and rockets blindly into Israel, or shooting old men?

[moderateamericain]

BC Chick,

I understand the message your getting across. Its not right to smash down the destitute with even more problems. The Case with Gaza is unique in that Arab countries fund the continuation of this conflict. Its in there best interest to keep Israel Fighting with the PLO and hamas. There only chance of ever getting back Israel is to paint them as the aggressor. If you look at this chain of events. The Gazians? Had a chance to make this work. The Israelis pulled out all the Jews and turned over control to them. They chose to lob missles at Israel. I guess my question is, do you expect Israel to just sit there and take it? Would you expect the US to sit there and let mexico or canada lob missles into texas or North Dakota? Obviously not.

With this current situation the more I read about these attacks the more I find that Israel WAS in fact careful on who they targeted. Most of the buildings were in fact government security stations. Most of the people Killed were in fact legitimate targets. Were civilians killed? of course. Show me a war in history that did not result in the death of innocents. I think you need to maybe step outside your box and look into WHY did Israel choose to strike. Did Israel Warn Gaza to stop shelling? If somoene were shooting at your Home, How long would you take it before you shot back?

[Rue]

If Israel really wanted peace, they would have peace.

But one cannot steal land in peace time.

When continued occupation enables that goal so nicely.

Oh there we go on cue. Continued occupation of what. According to Hamas its continued occupation of Israel not just the Gaza and West Bank.

Do me a favour Kuzadd try a new one. The double talk reference which means Israel to some and the West Bank for others no longer works. We all see through it.