Open warfare in South Ossetia

[WIP]

THe difference is the United states hasnt killed 28 million of its own citizens in the last century and 50 million total. The russians should not be the defend of anything but itself. They have proven they are the absolute last country we want using there military in any way. THe problem with what your proposing is not the 1 to 1 comparison its the total picture over the last 100 to 200 years.

Using your own media source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War *I would not consider this reliable source* The Russians have no regard for human life

Here's a thought: people shouldn't throw stones when they live in glass houses! If you want to argue that Russia has no legitimate interests in neighbouring states because the past genocides, we can go back even further to the massacres of natives caused by wars, ethnic cleansing and disease brought on by the Indian Wars that were fought in the interests of a policy of Manifest Destiny. Most of that estimated 28 million who died after the Bolshevik Revolution, died as a result of disease and ethnic cleansing, not extermination camps -- same as the Indian Wars!

As for the here and now, if you're curious about why even most U.S. allies have been trying to put as much distance between themselves and America, as possible since 9/11, it's because U.S. foreign policy under the Bush Administration has lost all moral authority to claim the high ground on the international scene. It's ironic to hear Dubya, McCain and Condi declaring that Russia has no right to invade a sovereign nation, after going it alone to invade Iraq for regime change, and supporting the declaration of independence by breakaway enclaves like Kosovo and Montenegro from Serbia.

The battlelines are being formed along the lines of self-interest by the rest of the world; nations with great animosity towards the Russians (like Poland) will go along with any moves against Russia as long as they are not dependent on Russian natural gas (like Germany), but no one honestly believes the U.S. has the moral high ground.

[PoliticalCitizen]

It was kindness and goodness that led them to booby trap toys with explosives in Afghanistan.

Funny... I've heard the same story said about the Americans.

There are certain aspects of the relations between etnic groups that the members of this board may be missing because they are not familiar with the Caucasus region. Russia is and has always been the stabilizing factor in the region. Thanks to its presence the Caucasian nations did not wipe out each other until now, and hopefully it will stay that way in the future.

Another aspect of the situation concerns US foreign agenda. We can discuss it in a separate thread if you wish, but basically it consists of de-stabilizing various regions (Yugoslavia, Middle East, Caucasus etc.) in order to weaken countries outside of their control and to gain foothold for its military.

[bush_cheney2004]

Here's a thought: people shouldn't throw stones when they live in glass houses! If you want to argue that Russia has no legitimate interests in neighbouring states because the past genocides, we can go back even further to the massacres of natives caused by wars, ethnic cleansing and disease brought on by the Indian Wars that were fought in the interests of a policy of Manifest Destiny. Most of that estimated 28 million who died after the Bolshevik Revolution, died as a result of disease and ethnic cleansing, not extermination camps -- same as the Indian Wars!

Citation please....otherwise it stands as BS.

As for the here and now, if you're curious about why even most U.S. allies have been trying to put as much distance between themselves and America, as possible since 9/11, it's because U.S. foreign policy under the Bush Administration has lost all moral authority to claim the high ground on the international scene. It's ironic to hear Dubya, McCain and Condi declaring that Russia has no right to invade a sovereign nation, after going it alone to invade Iraq for regime change, and supporting the declaration of independence by breakaway enclaves like Kosovo and Montenegro from Serbia.

You're kidding, right? Perhaps you don't know what the evil American empire was doing before 2001....including Canada. Serbia and Iraq can tell you.

The battlelines are being formed along the lines of self-interest by the rest of the world; nations with great animosity towards the Russians (like Poland) will go along with any moves against Russia as long as they are not dependent on Russian natural gas (like Germany), but no one honestly believes the U.S. has the moral high ground.

Moral high ground doesn't mean dick anyway....that's just for us to argue about. May the best/strongest self interest win! But frankly, after watching China emerge as a global player, I think Russia hasn't a clue. It is regressing.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Gosh I hope so...they left Russia for a reason...no? I work with them every weekday, and they shake their heads over Putin, not because they love Bush, but because they know Bush will be gone come January...no matter what.

If hate speech were an issue on this forum, the Americans would have a much bigger complaint than the Russians.

Most of the Russian-speaking population in Canada and US have left USSR and the countries formed after its collapse as Jews. They have lived a few years in Israel but chose not to stay

None of them left because they hate Russia. It was the economic situation and the persecution of Russians by some former Soviet Republics (Pribaltic, Middle-Asian).

[myata]

It was kindness and goodness that led them to booby trap toys with explosives in Afghanistan.

It was the same kindness they would employ when they'd hold a villager down and run a T-72 over them starting at the feet in order to make the other villagers talk.

Thanks for pointing out the ugliness of war; this is exactly why it should be avoided at all cost; speaking of which, maybe you'd care to comment on my earlier question, namely, why have US and their allies not take any measures, and on the contrary, stalled UN process to stop Georgia's attacks when they started?

As to the incidents; again war is an ugly business; people rarely come out all white, and some turn completely black; no matter ethnicity or nationality; you'll easily google cases of US military atrocities in their recent wars.

It was kindness and goodness that led them to murder over 50,000,000 of their own, just pure goodness.

That can been repeated till hell gets tired and still be completely irrelevant. Germany had Nazis, US nuked cities full of civilians, and the rest of Europe practiced torture and burning alive, at some points of their history. So what exactly are you trying to say? What you seriously dislike Russians, and grasping for a reason to rationalize it to yourself?

If you actually knew anything you'd realise that these tactics are nothing exceptional for the Russians, rather they are just the way they do things.

You mean, they started the bloody mess, while poor peaceful Georgians were drinking their night cup of milk (or whatever they drink), in their tanks?

The last report I saw said they are not honouring any cease fire ... .

Gotta do some independent research, rather than just passively taking in the media; btw, bad for your brain. The agreement only comes into force once signed by the parties. Georgia's pres only got to it couple of hours back; why the delay? Your guess is as good as mine;

Anyways, I believe now it'll have to travel all the way back to Moscow, so gotta be patient here. We were so very patient peaceful and understanding while the city was under a barrage of fire, so I'm not sure what's all the fuss is about.

... and that Russian supported Ossetians are pillaging, looting and burning homes and businesses

Of course, there's no media reports from the first hours in Ossetia under massive fire. If you're curious, you can still find information, "the truth is out there".

And not excusing maradeuring behaviour in any way, as already said, war is ugly business, and once it's out of the bottle, it'd be totally naive to expect that it can be squeezed back in a wish. Somebody had friends or relatives killed, houses destroyed, someone else joined in to make a quick buck; there're sure folks who'd just be looking for trouble, especially if they managed to lay hands on lots of guns. Which brings us, again, to the same quesion: knowing full well the ugly nature of war, why have we (in the broad sense) done nothing to halt it in the bud then we had that opportunity? Why do we never, ever do that, if it (a war) happens to be run by one of our buddies?? Why do we ourselves start new wars, by choice, not need?

Edited August 15, 2008 by myata

[bush_cheney2004]

Most of the Russian-speaking population in Canada and US have left USSR and the countries formed after its collapse as Jews. They have lived a few years in Israel but chose not to stay

Most is not all..not even close. I will tell my comrade that you said he is Jewish.

None of them left because they hate Russia. It was the economic situation and the persecution of Russians by some former Soviet Republics (Pribaltic, Middle-Asian).

OK...they don't love Canada or America either...it was just an economic situation that made them leave their homeland, learn new languages, buy homes, and raise families, never to return. But they still LOVE RUSSIA!

Last night I watched an "American" gymnast win the all-around gold medal in Beijing. She was born in Moscow about 19 years ago....to Russian Parents (also Soviet Olympic Champions). I leave the math to you.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Most is not all..not even close. I will tell my comrade that you said he is Jewish.

Hehe... Most of them pretended to be Jewish... just to get out.

OK...they don't love Canada or America either...it was just an economic situation that made them leave their homeland, learn new languages, buy homes, and raise families, never to return. But they still LOVE RUSSIA!

Last night I watched an "American" gymnast win the all-around gold medal in Beijing. She was born in Moscow about 19 years ago....to Russian Parents (also Soviet Olympic Champions). I leave the math to you.

Well... You know that there are millions of Chinese in both US and Canada. Ask them if they hate China. And that still is a Communist government.

Ask your friend why he and his family immigrated. I'm sure it was not Putin's repressions

[bush_cheney2004]

Hehe... Most of them pretended to be Jewish... just to get out.

Hmmm.....they must have wanted out by any means necessary. I don't blame them.

Well... You know that there are millions of Chinese in both US and Canada. Ask them if they hate China. And that still is a Communist government.

I don't have to asked them....they voted with thei feet. They will tell me a favorite response for some Canadians about the USA....they hate "the government" or "present administration".

Ask your friend why he and his family immigrated. I'm sure it was not Putin's repressions

No, Russia's pathology runs much deeper than that. Too bad....even China has figured it out.

[moderateamericain]

Wow my thread is kicking major ass right now. This thread is not intended as a comparison between Russia and the USA. Myata and I were having a discussion about moral imperative. He maintains by his perception of events based on passed US behavior in regards to military operations that it is Hypocritical for the US to condemn and or criticize Russia for invading Georgia. Or if you prefer retaliating against Georgia for trying to Militarily take back S Ossetia. (Stop me if Im wrong) Are discussion is not a Bashing on either country. Let me see if i can give you a better analysis of my argument. Maybe Im not putting enough effort into explaining my thoughts clearly.

1. I don't question whether or not the force was disproportionate or not. I believe Russia had no right to invade PERIOD.

2. I firmly believe Russia was looking for an excuse to invade Georgia, Fast tracking S ossetian citizens into Russian citizenships. There Military was also conveniently ready to move within 24 hours of Georgia attacking S Ossetia.

3. Georgia is a democracy. I think its the United States duty to protect countries that are trying or have become a democracy.

4. If you look at the top 4 events in the 20th century of worst offenders in Human Slaughter. World war one, world war 2, RUSSIA, china.

Rounded off Death tolls:

WWI 15 Million dead

WW2 55 Million Dead

Russia 29 Million (20 to stalin, 9 million to the revolution)

China 42.8 Million dead

No sir, Russia who has killed the 3rd most people in MODERN HISTORY has lost all rights to moral ground. To think otherwise is not only foolish but borderline INSANE. You dont change the nature of the wolf you just keep the meat away from it, because what does a wolf do when it has meet, it eats it.

Now lets look at the US,

from the Revolutionary period forward. Roughly 6 million dead.

1.2 Million of which are US soldiers killed

someone wanted to talk about the Indian wars.

The Indian wars 45,000 dead. 19,000 whites. Also part of those total deaths were before we were even a country

[August1991]

Western policies, and first of all, those of the US, are a big and outrageous pile of hypocrisy. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if they eventually pull us back into a new cold war. I mean there's a new guy in Kremlin, and close as he may be to Putin, he isn't Putin. Things change. This may have been the chance to show, for once, what we mean it when we lecture about peace and justice; maybe if they saw it, something would have moved on their side too? But who would know, now? In the end, it all came down to the same, tried and trusted, "see no evil, hear no evil", from those who're mine. And so, it'll now be.

Palestine

Kosovo

Lebanon

Afghanistan

Iraq

Our proud record. Our ticket to lecture others about peace, justice and "proportional" response.

Myata, you fail to realize that the US has not annexed Afghanistan or Iraq or Kosovo. Russia, OTOH, plans to do exactly that with Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Moreover, you seem to see a moral equivalence between the US and Russia. (To be more accurate, you seem to seek a way to criticize the US regardless of what it does.) I happen to consider the US to be the good guys in general.

Myata, in your world of moral equivalence, if the RCMP can use guns then the Hell's Angels should also have the right to use guns. In your moral world, the RCMP and the Hell's Angels are the same.

Myata, do you see no difference between someone like Bush and someone like Putin?

[PoliticalCitizen]

1. I don't question whether or not the force was disproportionate or not. I believe Russia had no right to invade PERIOD.

The people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, whose extermination Russia prevented, have a different opinion.

As a matter of fact, they will not trust ANY peacekeeping force BUT Russian because the rest of the world chose to conveniently watch Olympics while the Ossetians were being slaughtered and then forgot to mention that in the news.

2. I firmly believe Russia was looking for an excuse to invade Georgia, Fast tracking S ossetian citizens into Russian citizenships. There Military was also conveniently ready to move within 24 hours of Georgia attacking S Ossetia.

Agreed. But why is having troops ready to defend civilians wrong and having an army trained and armed by US and Israel just for the purpose of exterminating these people right?

3. Georgia is a democracy. I think its the United States duty to protect countries that are trying or have become a democracy.

It appears this "Democracy" thing is a religion where the US administration are the prophets and everyone else either followers or heretics. Does "Democracy" mean the right of a government to exterminate an inconvenient part of the population?

4. If you look at the top 4 events in the 20th century of worst offenders in Human Slaughter. World war one, world war 2, RUSSIA, china.

Rounded off Death tolls:

WWI 15 Million dead

WW2 55 Million Dead

Russia 29 Million (20 to stalin, 9 million to the revolution)

China 42.8 Million dead

No sir, Russia who has killed the 3rd most people in MODERN HISTORY has lost all rights to moral ground. To think otherwise is not only foolish but borderline INSANE. You dont change the nature of the wolf you just keep the meat away from it, because what does a wolf do when it has meet, it eats it.

I'm sure everyone here will agree that any talk about "Morals" coming from US is an insult to any thinking person's intelligence. What matters is who's more powerful. US thought they can do whatever they wanted in any part of the world as they did for a couple of decades, and noone could tell them "No". Now they realized that's no longer the same, and another country has more power its region of the world. It is hard for them to get it through their heads. How come they said "No" and someone didn't obey? But now they will taste what it's like to be mad and powerless at the same time. It is a good lesson. I hope they will learn from it.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Myata, you fail to realize that the US has not annexed Afghanistan or Iraq or Kosovo. Russia, OTOH, plans to do exactly that with Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Moreover, you seem to see a moral equivalence between the US and Russia. (To be more accurate, you seem to seek a way to criticize the US regardless of what it does.) I happen to consider the US to be the good guys in general.

Myata, in your world of moral equivalence, if the RCMP can use guns then the Hell's Angels should also have the right to use guns. In your moral world, the RCMP and the Hell's Angels are the same.

Myata, do you see no difference between someone like Bush and someone like Putin?

A lot of people on this board seem to be eager to criticize Russia without understanding what happened in Georgia. US is not RCMP and Russia is not Hell's Angels. US politics in the world are absolutely totalitarian. Russia's used to be the same, but now they have to be much more careful as they are #2 at best.

It is hard not to see the difference between Bush and Putin

One can barely read and speaks some English; the other is a former spy who speaks several languages and practices martial arts

[bush_cheney2004]

A lot of people on this board seem to be eager to criticize Russia without understanding what happened in Georgia. US is not RCMP and Russia is not Hell's Angels. US politics in the world are absolutely totalitarian. Russia's used to be the same, but now they have to be much more careful as they are #2 at best.

Why is it OK to criticize the USA but not Russia? Russia is not #2....it is still a backward place overall. Why can't they figure it out?

It is hard not to see the difference between Bush and Putin

One can barely read and speaks some English; the other is a former spy who speaks several languages and practices martial arts

And one will retire to Crawford Texas in January, while the other clings to power no matter what....so Russian!

[PoliticalCitizen]

Why is it OK to criticize the USA but not Russia? Russia is not #2....it is still a backward place overall. Why can't they figure it out?

I appreciate the bitterness of your remark

However, like it or not, Russia is the only country in the world that has a chance of single-handedly destroying US.

And antagonizing it by taking former allies into NATO and building a missle defence system along its border is not going to do anyone any good.

And one will retire to Crawford Texas in January, while the other clings to power no matter what....so Russian!

Of course. Only Russians like power.

Edited August 15, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[August1991]

It is hard not to see the difference between Bush and Putin

One can barely read and speaks some English; the other is a former spy who speaks several languages and practices martial arts

The difference bewteen Putin and Bush is that Putin thinks Bush fired Dan Rather.

George Bush knew Vladimir Putin would be defensive when Bush brought up the pace of democratic reform in Russia in their private meeting at the end of Bush's four-day, three-city tour of Europe. But when Bush talked about the Kremlin's crackdown on the media and explained that democracies require a free press, the Russian leader gave a rebuttal that left the President nonplussed. If the press was so free in the U.S., Putin asked, then why had those reporters at CBS lost their jobs? Bush was openmouthed. "Putin thought we'd fired Dan Rather," says a senior Administration official. "It was like something out of 1984."

Time

This little anecdote explains the broad chasm of misunderstanding between Putin and his entourage and politicians in the civilized world.

[PoliticalCitizen]

The difference bewteen Putin and Bush is that Putin thinks Bush fired Dan Rather.

Time

This little anecdote explains the broad chasm of misunderstanding between Putin and his entourage and politicians in the civilized world.

I'm sure there's more anecdotes about Bush than anyone could count

And honestly, it is very sad to see that the most powerful country in the world has the least intelligent leader.

[moderateamericain]

I appreciate the bitterness of your remark

However, like it or not, Russia is the only country in the world that has a chance of single-handedly destroying US.

And antagonizing it by taking former allies into NATO and building a missle defence system along its border is not going to do anyone any good.

Of course. Only Russians like power.

Russia has zero chance of destroying the united states, China has a better shot then they do.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Russia has zero chance of destroying the united states, China has a better shot then they do.

What is your opinion based on? Please share.

[moderateamericain]

What is your opinion based on? Please share.

Its based on the condition of the Russian Military, Its based on the fact that China would almost assuredly take over Russia as soon as the dust settled. Its based on the fact that If the Russians fired off the few ICBM they have left it would be absolute suicide. Russia as a country would cease to exist. Also since 2002 the United states has achieved breakthroughs on Anti Ballistic missile technology. Yeah we would lose some cities but anything worth hitting in Russia would be wiped off the map.

Edited August 15, 2008 by moderateamericain

[eyeball]

Moral high ground doesn't mean dick anyway....that's just for us to argue about.

Truer words were never spoken.

But frankly, after watching China emerge as a global player, I think Russia hasn't a clue. It is regressing.

I don't know, Russia the country probably is, but not the powerful people running the place. They are the future, China's leadership is also showing the way. I realize the US still has more billionaires than anyone else but I wonder about the rate at which billionaires in Russia and China are becomig richer is compared to those in the US? I bet its easier for a billionaire to get ahead faster in countries like Russia and China than anywhere in the west can boast.

To paraphrase, nations don't mean dick anymore....they're just for show.

[Alta4ever]

A lot of people on this board seem to be eager to criticize Russia without understanding what happened in Georgia. US is not RCMP and Russia is not Hell's Angels. US politics in the world are absolutely totalitarian. Russia's used to beyou brush up on your modern hist the same, but now they have to be much more careful as they are #2 at best.

It is hard not to see the difference between Bush and Putin

One can barely read and speaks some English; the other is a former spy who speaks several languages and practices martial arts

You are very wrong in this. The US is very much seen as type of police force. The Americans are the ones who keep the sea lanes and air routes open. When there is a world issue, like the need for peace keeping, who is it that is expected to go first, it is always the US. Anytime the UN requires solders the US is expected to answer the call. The US picked up where England left off after the second world war. These two nations have been expected to "police" the world for the last 160 years. These are well know facts to any historian and I suggest you brush up on your modern history and leave your political preconceptions behind.

Edited August 15, 2008 by Alta4ever

[PoliticalCitizen]

Its based on the condition of the Russian Military, Its based on the fact that China would almost assuredly take over Russia as soon as the dust settled. Its based on the fact that If the Russians fired off the few ICBM they have left it would be absolute suicide. Russia as a country would cease to exist. Also since 2002 the United states has achieved breakthroughs on Anti Ballistic missile technology. Yeah we would lose some cities but anything worth hitting in Russia would be wiped off the map.

If there is any one area in Soviet Union / Russia that has never lacked funding it is weapon development. The army itself is far from ideal, with a suicide rate of 20%. I would not be quick to dismiss the nuclear and other (chemical, biological) potential of a re-emerging superpower.

We can continue this discussion in the separate Cold War II thread I created, if you wish.

[PoliticalCitizen]

You are very wrong in this. The US is very much seen as type of police force. The Americans are the ones who keep the sea lanes and air routes open. When there is a world issue, like the need for peace keeping, who is it that is expected to go first, it is always the US. Anytime the UN requires solders the US is expected to answer the call. The US picked up where England left off after the second world war. These two nations have been expected to "police" the world for the last 160 years. These are well know facts to any historian and I suggest you brush up on your modern history and leave your political preconceptions behind.

I envy you - it is quite an Utopian world you're picturing... Policing the World... Team America... F. Yeah!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Let's try to stay on topic.

[AngusThermopyle]

I was going to stay out of this since I'm finding it rather boring now. However I do feel a few points that have been made need to be questioned. so, if I could have some answers to the following I would appreciate it.

The people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, whose extermination Russia prevented,

First point. How do you know they would have been exterminated? What is the basis for this statement of yours?

an army trained and armed by US and Israel just for the purpose of exterminating these people

So you believe the Georgian army exists only to exterminate Ossetians? If thats the case why were they in Iraq? are there a bunch of Ossetians living there?

Does "Democracy" mean the right of a government to exterminate an inconvenient part of the population?

Once again, where did you find this information? You know, the Georgians are determined to exterminate the Ossetians?

And antagonizing it by taking former allies into NATO

I think what you meant to say was formerly occupied and annexed countries.

Of course. Only Russians like power. smile.gif

Well thats not true, others like power as well. Just about any totalitarian regime likes power, and will do just about anything to gain it, in that respect Russia falls quite nicely into the club.

Edited August 15, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[Alta4ever]

I envy you - it is quite an Utopian world you're picturing... Policing the World... Team America... F. Yeah!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Let's try to stay on topic.

What makes that a Utopia, you need to brush up on your world history! The fact is that why you bash the US, you take for granted the privlages provided to you by their military; open and free trading routes, we live under certain amount of security that we won't wake up the next morning to an aggressive invasion, something the Georgians would envy you of.

While the movie you quote was hilarious, and quite over the top there were some fundamental messages their that seem to have escaped you.

I am going to recommend some "light" reading for you.

Churchill And America

Martin Gilbert

To Rule the Waves How the British Navy Shaped the Modern World

Arthur Herman

History of the English Speaking Peoples (If you short on time, its only the last two volumes that deal with the last couple of hundred years)

Winston Churchill

If these are not to your taste, I can recommend a few more.