moderateamericain Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080816/ap_on_.../georgia_russia Looks like Im going to be wrong on timetable if Russia takes the capital. Quote
myata Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 From what I can see, Russia has created the impression that Georgia started this problem/provoked this invasion. IMHO, that impression is false and I am surprised that so many western news outlets accepted the Russian version. Cool. The attacks on South Ossetia's capital never happened. Russia simply "chose moment" to roll in. "War is peace", right August? Just as we have diagonosed. The truth is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't need trinkles like facts. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Argus Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 1. If West, and US in particular was really and genuinly concerned about peace and stability in the region, why didn't they restrain their puppet, who was obviously preparing for a massive military action? I mean come on, don't play innocente, these preparations take weeks if not months and Pentagon people were sure to notice that something was brewing up... but of course, see no evil, from those who are mine. Funny, information posted in this thread seems to suggest it is the Russians who have been preparing for months, and encouraging their "allies" in south ossetia to use the artillery and mortars given to them to bombard nearby Georgian towns in order to incite the Georgians into exactly this kind of response. BTW, despite your claims to the contrary, you have yet to provide us with a logical, fact based argument(s) as to why NATO action in Kosovo had been proportionate, while Russia's in Ossetia - was not. You are like a lawyer who is defending his home-invasion clients who burst into a home, shot the father and raped the mother and daughter, by pointing at the SWAT team and loudly complaining about how they have often busted into private dwellings themselves and shot people inside them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g8GZ3q...4_h91nTTppS-Yjw"Around a year ago Israel decided to limit its aid to Georgia to defensive weaponry and military advisors, and at present its aid stands at 200 million dollars (120 million euros), the newspaper said. Israel has in the past sold aerial drones, night-vision equipment, and rockets to Georgia, and many retired officers from the Israel's military and internal security services work as military advisors there. " I see no indication of "aid to Georgia". All I see is that Israel, which sells arms, has sold some to Georgia. Big deal. That's like saying Canada is involved because we sold oil development equipment to Russia. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Argus, As I told moderateamericain we can have a separate US and Russia-bashing thread. I'm sure you can imagine how many ugly things can be said by either side. Let me ask you a simple question: Have you heard anyone from Bush's administration even mention the terms Ossetia or Ossetian? Their behaviour would imply that such things don't even exist... If you are concerned with who's doing what to help civilian population and restore the infrastructure: Bush has pledged $250K USD (lol) in help for Georgia + some "Humanitarian" shipments that for whatever reason have to be delivered by military means; Putin has pledged $460M USD (10bil rubles) to rebuild Tshinval. Putin has no soul. Have you ever looked at him? If Putin is pledging aid we all know the reasons are for propaganda, to make himself look good, and to cement his hold on what used to be Georgian territory. What aid the US pledges is basically charity. And I rather doubt it will stop at a quarter million. The US is a very generous nation. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 A lot of people on this board seem to be eager to criticize Russia without understanding what happened in Georgia. US is not RCMP and Russia is not Hell's Angels. Can you tell me how Russia is morally better than the Hells Angels? It is hard not to see the difference between Bush and Putin One can barely read and speaks some English; the other is a former spy who speaks several languages and practices martial arts And is a ruthless, crooked murderer. You forgot that part. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 (edited) The bias against Russia in the Western media regarding the whole Georgia/Ossetia/Russia conflict is astounding. Yes, and the media seems to be biased against murderers and in favour of the police too. WTF is with that?! Russia deserves some blame for attacking Georgia with such ferocity, but the western media rarely brings up the fact that Georgia attacked South Ossetia first, a day after they had both agreed to a ceasefire.You mean a day after the south ossetians had violated the cease fire by firing mortars at Georgian villages and attacking a nearby police patrol? Edited August 16, 2008 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 While I sympathize with your indignation I cannot help but notice that you are not very familiar with the former Soviet Union or its Republics.And I find it totally hipocrytic of Georgia and Ukraine to say they were "held by force" within the Soviet Union. Stalin was Georgian and Khruschev was Ukrainian. The peoples of Soviet Union lived together PEACEFULLY and enjoyed almost equal rights. Uhm, by which you mean none of them had ANY rights. If you knew the history of Soviet Union you would know that at the time it was formed Poland (another hypocritic country) was annexed to Russian Empire. And Lenin let them and Finland go away because he wanted the republics to be together WILLINGLY. And Stalin? And those who followed him? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Dude, look at the DATE of the story in your link. It is 04 of July, which is NOT when the conflict started.There are no doubts about who started the conflict on 08 of August - it was the Georgian military (with brotherly help from Ukrainians and Estonians, maybe some US mercenaries). The conflict actually started years ago when Russia sent intelligence agents into these regions to organize rebellions, supplied them with money, logistics, weapons, and spetznatz so they could fight the Georgians. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Cool. The attacks on South Ossetia's capital never happened. Russia simply "chose moment" to roll in. "War is peace", right August? Just as we have diagonosed. The truth is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't need trinkles like facts. Fact is the Russians have been building up their forces inside and outside that area for months. Fact is the south ossetia "militia" which was created, armed, and funded by the Russians, started to attack Georgian targets. Unsurprisingly, the Georgian military responded - just as Russia wanted. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
August1991 Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 (edited) Cool. The attacks on South Ossetia's capital never happened. Russia simply "chose moment" to roll in. "War is peace", right August? Just as we have diagonosed. The truth is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't need trinkles like facts.Well, Andrei Illarionov and Pavel Felgenhauer tend to agree with me.Military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer says the aim, from the start, was to overthrow Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili and his pro-Western government."This was prepared long ago," Felgenhauer, a Moscow-based military analyst tells RFE/RL’s North Caucasus Service, adding that according to his information, a decision to go to war was made back in April. "A decision was made for the war to start in August. The war would have happened regardless of what the Georgians did. Whether they responded to the provocations or not, there would have been an invasion of Georgia," Felgenhauer says. "The goal was to destroy Georgia’s central government, defeat the Georgian army, and prevent Georgia from joining NATO." .... Writing in the online newspaper "Yezhednevny zhurnal," Andrei Illarionov likewise argues that the invasion of Georgia "had been long prepared and successfully executed." Illarionov is a onetime adviser to former Russian president and current Prime Minister Vladimir Putin who has since emerged as a fierce Kremlin critic. Such interpretations contradict the official narrative of the war promoted relentlessly by the Kremlin in the domestic and international media -- that Russian forces acted only in order to defend Russian citizens and peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia from Georgian soldiers intent on "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" in the breakaway region. LinkThe Russian government has carefully manipulated this story to give the impression that it is simply responding to a Georgian attack. Moreover, I'm beginning to think that Russia's goal is to overthrow the Saakshvili government and ensure that a more Russian-friendly regime is put in place. Edited August 16, 2008 by August1991 Quote
eyeball Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Dude, look at the DATE of the story in your link. It is 04 of July, which is NOT when the conflict started.There are no doubts about who started the conflict on 08 of August - it was the Georgian military (with brotherly help from Ukrainians and Estonians, maybe some US mercenaries). Dude, we're talking about a region where history is usually made up of equal parts of animosity and vengence. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
MMT Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 I see no indication of "aid to Georgia". All I see is that Israel, which sells arms, has sold some to Georgia. Big deal. That's like saying Canada is involved because we sold oil development equipment to Russia. A guilty mind betrays itself. Typical Soviet propaganda. Pointing finger to whoever else, to advocate own guilt. No wonder that Putin so regretted about collapse of the Soviet empire. No wonder that Russia's officially recognized as a "heir" of USSR. No wonder that Russia's officials in UN just recently rejected to admit genocide of people in Ukraine, killed in millions by Reds. Back to the USSR? No, thanks. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Yes, and the media seems to be biased against murderers and in favour of the police too. WTF is with that?! Depends on who the murderer is. (ie: the gov't). Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Excellent Soviet propaganda. Georgia and Ukraine became Soviet republics with a little help of Red Army, didn't they? People of Ukraine enjoyed "Golodomor" with millions killed by commies in 1930s. Ukrainians loved it so much that many even welcomed German Armies, with flowers. They thought that Germans came to liberate them in 1941. Were they kind of idiots? Not to say that whoever didn't enjoy the communists in power, could enjoy labor and death concentration camps, psycho clinics or trivially killed. It seems that modern Russia is not so far from that USSR in terms of how people of different ethnicities enjoy living together, isn't it? No ethnic tensions between Russians and people of Caucasus? Georgia and Ukraine are eager to re-join the Putin’s empire, eh? Maybe, my sources are incorrect. Which sources are yours? Putin's state controlled media? Oh, I forgot to ask something else our lovely historian. Who may I ask the brave Red Army tried to liberate in 1921 and 1939? Perhaps, it was Poland? and... Finland? How come? These nations decided to join the Red Empire but something stopped their joy? Was it WILLINGLY or not? What a b... shit! You're talking as if you lived there... but you have not. Do you think all communists were Russian? Tipical western brain-washing... Yes, people starved at times... History is ugly... but I can guarantee you more Russians starved to death than Ukrainian... Look at how USSR fell apart - every republic was allowed to leave with whatever territory was assigned to it by USSR. The republics then in turn were supposed to give their autonomous republics a freedom of choice too - something Georgia forgot to do. Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 In other news.... Saakashvili signed the document but himself, Condy and Bush keep talkin about Georgia's "territorial integrity"... Point 6 of the document that was signed - kiss the "territiorial integrity" good-bye. Condy keeps talking about "International Peacekeeping Force" in the breakaway regions. International as in Georgian, Ukrainian and other (Estonia, US?) forces that attacket Tshinval? That's not going to happen. Bush and Condy keep saying "Russia get OUT!". Well, Medvedev said we'll be out as soon as we finish our business Quote You are what you do.
AngusThermopyle Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 (edited) every republic was allowed to leave with whatever territory was assigned to it by USSR. Is it possible that you meant to say "every republic was allowed to leave with whatever territory was stolen from it by USSR"? That makes much more sense than the original quote I posted. Bush and Condy keep saying "Russia get OUT!". Well, Medvedev said we'll be out as soon as we finish our business wink.gif That business of course being the annexation of Georgia. International as in Georgian, Ukrainian and other (Estonia, US?) forces that attacket Tshinval? That's not going to happen. Of course you have a reliable source to back up this claim, right? Otherwise it would just be so much crap, so obviously you must have a reliable source, right? The republics then in turn were supposed to give their autonomous republics a freedom of choice too - something Georgia forgot to do. When did South Ossetia become a republic? Would that not imply that SO is an independent country? When did that happen? Edited August 16, 2008 by AngusThermopyle Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Is it possible that you meant to say "every republic was allowed to leave with whatever territory was stolen from it by USSR"? If your are interested in information exchange and not just an argument... Krimea never belonged to Ukraine. It was given to it "as a gift" by Ukrainian head of USSR Khruschev. Simfiropol is a Russian city. Abkhazia and Ossetia were Autonomous Republics (that USSR had 16 in total) and were supposed to get the same rights to self-determination as Georgia did. Of course you have a reliable source to back up this claim, right? Otherwise it would just be so much crap, so obviously you must have a reliable source, right? It is not my fault that you can't read Russian. If you fully trust your information sources (as most americans did with 9/11), then just ignore whatever I say - it is of no value to you... Quote You are what you do.
moderateamericain Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 According to BBC, Russian troops are now within 18 miles of the capital. Also Russian convoys have been seen stripping things of value from the port city and carting them off (where to unknown) Theres also widespread dismantling of Georgian property, They showed a blown up chunk of a railroad bridge. If the russians wanted to damage them. There doing a great job of it. Quote
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe Secretary General Marc Perrin de Brichambaut is now conducting investigation is South Ossetia. Quote You are what you do.
MMT Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 You're talking as if you lived there... but you have not. Do you think all communists were Russian? Tipical western brain-washing... What do you know about me? Who am I, where I lived and what I know? The communists, committing the genocide of people in Ukraine were mostly Jews. Are you happy that I pronounced that? If you have doubt, read official documents published by Ukrainian government.But what difference does it make? What makes you think that such regime could be recognized as not guilty? Yes, people starved at times... History is ugly... but I can guarantee you more Russians starved to death than Ukrainian... The people did not starve to death in millions on their own will. They were murdered. It was well planned and executed by the Soviet regime. Thank you for mentioning genocide of ethnic Russians in addition to genocide of ethnic Ukrainians. Genocide of not just one people, but many. Isn't it less crime against humanity in your mind? The Russia's government denies these Soviet crimes, using the same logic as yours. Look at how USSR fell apart - every republic was allowed to leave with whatever territory was assigned to it by USSR. You consider it as a blessing? Gigantic territories cut from Russians and granted to ethnic minorities by the will of repressive regime. It wasn't stupidity, it was another crime of commies in power. Crime against Russian people. The republics then in turn were supposed to give their autonomous republics a freedom of choice too - something Georgia forgot to do. You could put a dog on a golden chain, but the dog will still understand that it's still the chain. Even dog would understand that and remember. Quote
AngusThermopyle Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 as most americans did with 9/11 Wrong again, there's a very large group of Americans who do not believe what they were told about 911 (in fact an article I recently read stated that 84% of polled respondents believe 911 involved some form of cover up). That shouldn't matter to you though, you can always rely on that state controlled Russian media for the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
HisSelf Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 (edited) According to BBC, Russian troops are now within 18 miles of the capital. Also Russian convoys have been seen stripping things of value from the port city and carting them off (where to unknown) Theres also widespread dismantling of Georgian property, They showed a blown up chunk of a railroad bridge. If the russians wanted to damage them. There doing a great job of it. They blew up a lot pf ships in Poti and have taken possession of the harbour. This is miltary stragey 101. Destroy the infrastructure and take control of pinch points. Lie about your intentions. Oops. Talk about the "Fog of War". I was amazed when Condy Rice flew in with her peace treaty. The woman needs a holiday. Or maybe just a nice job giving lectures to undergraduates. Running a Think Tank? I'm sure there's something she can do. Oh I know! Run an oil company! Edited August 16, 2008 by HisSelf Quote ...
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 See Saakashvili eat his tie on BBC: Hmmmm... At least he proves he's human, has a conscience and feels guilty... Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Wrong again, there's a very large group of Americans who do not believe what they were told about 911 (in fact an article I recently read stated that 84% of polled respondents believe 911 involved some form of cover up). That shouldn't matter to you though, you can always rely on that state controlled Russian media for the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And how do you feel about US Government possibly lying (in the best case scenario - not orchestrating) about the tragedy that was later used as a pretext to attack countries on the other end of the globe? Quote You are what you do.
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