Leaderboard

1. I haven't noticed any withholding of information about the burka et al. It is controversial around the world, including in Islamic countries. 2. I suspect your assumption is that if these women were informed of its misogynistic implications, they'd toss it. Given that in the West especially this information is pretty well broadcast, I think most Muslim women are pretty well informed. How could they not be?

My comment relates to earlier conversations we had here in which we tried to identify the reason people voted for Trump. There are several reasons of course. What I meant was that it was the disenfrachised conservatives on the right that have felt ignored by their political leaders for many years, disregarded in the media while the left happily engaged on a campaign of political correctness, vilifying any views from right wing conservatives as if they were poison. This group felt it had no voice, not even from conservative leaders. When Trump came along with his attack on political correctness, they heard a voice that was saying at last what they wanted to hear. Here is one article which related to this: https://democracyjournal.org/magazine/43/what-next-for-liberalism/ ...what impassioned the core of those who swung the Electoral College balance, it is clear in retrospect, was a sense of being outsiders in their own land. Those alienated voters saw themselves as the bone and sinew of the nation... They had been waiting in line for years for their time to arrive only to see others cut in line ahead of them, what sociologist Arlie Hochschild calls the “deep story” they tell themselves.... Although they live in an echo chamber of self-confirming social messages, they feel themselves voiceless. That is why, in spite of their anger at the global capitalism that made Donald Trump’s fortune, they felt empowered when a man of his super-wealth and media stardom spoke the words they know they are not supposed to say in public themselves...The result was a vote in which anger overrode optimism, a corrosive sense of failure overrode hope, and in which the very impracticality of a Donald Trump presidency proved one of his strongest drawing cards. @Michael Hardner what we talked about yesterday... voting based on dissatisfaction and a kind of anarchy

Does Dog have some kind of influence over the rulership in Iran that we don't know about? Or could it be that he's just giving his ideas on who would best rule in Iran on a discussion board for discussing such things, much like we all give our opinions on various foreign governments?

Doug Ford was a drug dealer. You don't think that might come out in an election where his party absolutely needs the votes of rural voters?

And once again, reproductive rights are NOT Charter rights. There is nothing stopping government from imposing limits on abortion provided the SC finds they are reasonable.

Islam militarily is about fighting the Unbeliever until religion...all of it...is for Allah. Just as the Quran says. Muhammad was personally involved in battles spreading Islam throughout the Arabian peninsula. His Companions continued the invasion after his death. It was at Tours where Charles Martel turned back the invasion into the West during the early expansion...100 years post Big-Mo's death. Lightning warfare for the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Persia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests

My apologies for misconstruing your comments. I'm used to being attacked on here, so I may be a bit more paranoid then I need to be at times. Thank you. Truce? Perhaps we both need one of these more often:

I haven't had a lot of exposure to the wars of Islam but I did read quite a bit about the life of Mohammed. It seems that every time he had an issue with his wives, BINGO! he amazingly received a new revelation from Allah that restricted their actions and vindicated Mohammed. The more wives and sex slaves he took on, the more problems he had with them as a group and again, BINGO! amazingly new reveleations. Every. Time. It would have been comical if it wasn't so sad and disheartening. That's funny!

Rob Ford knew more about governing then trudeau ever will. Go Doug Go. LOL

My view also. As to the harmful effects of it and the "choice" to wear it, this author, a Muslim woman, sums up my feelings about it:

They are asked to respect charter rights and reproductive rights. Not sure what protesting has to do with it I never said they didn't have a right to protest. You keep moving the goalposts.

Sorry, I got stuck in meetings all morning. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my opinion, especially as I understand it varies widely from your own. First to clarify – Dialamah said that I “hate Islamic dress”. This is designed to give the impression that I just randomly and with no thought automatically disapprove of all Islamic dress. This is incorrect. I very much enjoy and appreciate the clothing styles of many cultures and I have no problem with people wearing their cultural dress. But we are not talking about that here, and Dialamah knows this. We are talking about a specific item of apparel, that has a specific purpose, carries with it a specific history and as she has even admitted here – is controversial. It is controversial for a reason and I don’t believe those reasons should be brushed aside with a casual “It’s my choice”, as if all the reasons that make it controversial in the first place, are nothing. To admit it is a controversial garment, and then not allow discussion of those controversies, or to quickly dismiss them with accusations of “Islamophobia!!!” is at best, poor debating. Women and girls all over the world, including in Western countries are being forced into this garment, are dying and being killed because of it. So yes, I have serious reservations about the legitimacy of this particular garment. (Incidentally, this is what makes your question a “loaded question”. In addition, Dia’s comment is designed to distract from the discussion by creating the false impression that I am prejudiced against anything Islamic so therefore not to be listened to, and your question is designed to force a Yes or No answer to a more complex question, based on Dia’s false allegations of myself, and also designed to distract from the discussion of this particular garment. But hey, I’ll bite today. ) Secondly, to clarify – my background is that I was born and raised in a high-control cult. Long story short, I managed to get myself free of it. That is no easy task, because it involves more than just getting physically free. You also must get mentally free. For me, getting mentally free meant fully and honestly researching my former cult. I also researched the mind control and thought-stopping techniques involved in brainwashing and how to break free from these processes. I researched logical fallacies and debating so that I could identify when these were being used in my former cult’s literature. When I got myself mentally free, I worked for 10 years on a discussion/recovery forum for others who were also trying to get free. We occasionally had Mormons show up on our board who also needed help, so I ended up researching the shit out of that religion, too. There aren’t many Mormon or JW or Hutterite or Amish threads here, so…..while it may seem that I only have issues with Islam *here*, I could totally blow a lot of wonky religious beliefs from many religions out of the water as well. Blowing JW’s out of the water over the blood issue is a particular favourite of mine because this is also a belief that people are literally dying from. It wasn’t until I lived in a town with a high Muslim population and saw their reaction to the birth of ISIS and saw the issues arising from the religion’s adherents that I said, “WTF is going on in THIS religion??” and started looking into it more. So my interest is not just in exposing Islam, no religion is safe from me. Haha! It would be more accurate if you called me a “Religionophobe”. Now, to get to your question: Unfortunately, my answer is: It depends. It depends on a variety of factors. What is the history of the dress? What is its purpose? What is its function? Is the dress code truly a part of the religion, or is it an extreme interpretation of it? Is it enforced for just religious functions? Or is it enforced at all times? Does it harm or does it benefit the wearer – physically, psychologically, emotionally, socially, etc? If the garment’s purpose is to make a public statement of values, does that public statement agree or disagree with what the prevailing society’s values are? Does it harm or does it benefit society as a whole? Of course there are lots of other considerations to take into account when evaluating a religious belief. And I wouldn’t completely dismiss any particular belief based solely on any ONE of the above criteria, except maybe the harm/benefit factor, and especially if people are dying over it. So, back to you – find me the religion that is not just quietly practicing, but actively promoting a proven harmful article of clothing, that its adherents are being killed over and dying for, that promotes an extreme interpretation of the basic religion, that promotes social values far out of step with the rest of the modern world – and I will condemn that garment as well. My research on this garment leads me to believe there is more harm inherent in it, than benefits. So while I completely understand your argument that it is a woman’s choice to wear this or not, I don’t believe that should be what is of prime importance. I think because of its many harmful attributes, it should probably treated much the same as seatbelts. It’s totally your choice to wear or not wear them. If you choose to not wear them, there are fines. You also should accept the more serious consequences of choosing not to wear them – you may be seriously injured or killed by your choice. Same with these garments, a fine if you insist on wearing it. And you will not be shielded from society’s disapproval (within legal boundaries, of course.) Now, Doggie! May I borrow your umbrella to deflect the rotten tomatoes?

Canadian oil rigs leaving for the U.S. because it's better for business "down there"....duh !

Trudeau attestation forms for summer jobs called "fascist"... http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/religious-leaders-summer-jobs-1.4512179

At least Cuba gave Jews a chance. Canada simply told them to fuck-off

DOP's comment wasn't accusing you of beating your wife. It was his way of saying that you are asking a loaded question for which there is no right answer - if you answer Yes, then you're a wife beater, If you answer No, you're still a wife beater. It's a classic. And an indication that the question isn't genuine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question I have a meeting now, but I'll be back.

Will it just be limited to sexual harassment? Elizabeth May's been accused, and is being probed, for allegedly bullying. https://globalnews.ca/news/3993162/green-party-elizabeth-may-bullying-investigation/ "Nasty," can take on many forms.

OK, but separation of church and state actually evolved over time in the United States, as it would have been impossible to bring several very religious colonies on side without some accommodation at the federal level. Thomas Jefferson took up the cause in 1801 after being prodded by the minority Danbury Baptists in Connecticut. Many U.S. states continued to have strong religious practices as a matter of law well into the 20th century (e.g. blue laws).

According to Pew Research, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the States. There are several reasons for this, among them the relative youth of it's adherents and their tendency to larger families. However, they also gain many converts from Christian religions; the number of people who leave Islam and the number who convert to Islam are about the same. Why do you suppose women, born and raised in a Western country, would choose to wear something like a burqa or niqab? Do you think they are 'forced'? Fair enough. And so I think you and I agree - the woman herself has to decide not to wear it. We can't impose our will on her, however much we might think she is being harmed. You know, my granddaughter got herself involved with some guy who's very controlling and suspicious of her every move. I've been worried about her, because she's at a vulnerable place in her life - but I had to bite my tongue and keep my comments very gentle and light, because until she's is ready to see what's going on, none of my criticism, advice or worry is going to persuade her. Thankfully, however, she let me know yesterday that she's about to move out. Now, I already love my granddaughter, so it was easy to accept her even when I saw her making a mistake - but should we do anything less even for women we don't know? And for that moment in time, it really is the truth - at least for them, and even if they are having internal doubts. Given your experience, I bet you'd agree that even as you were having doubts, you would still defend what you were doing as your choice. I know I did, for at least a couple of years.

Back to the topic discussed here.... I think any change in so far as democracy comes from within vis a vis Iran. There has been many occassions if this uprisings most notably the green movement in 2009 when protesters took to the streets to dispute the election of Ahmadinejhad and call for more political freedom. Some even asked for removal of Khamenei as the supreme leader, which is unprecedented It took Europe 500 years during middle ages before democracy flourished. I believe this will also happen in Iran at a much shorter time scale. Democracy is not something that can be exported nor by installing puppet governments in those countries that only serve our own interests for short term gains. The best West can do is to stop meddling in Iran’s affairs (if oil interests does not get in the way) and put pressure on the regime IMHO.

Ofcourse I want to discuss that’s why I asked the question. Not sure what you mean by personal attack.... It’s funny you question me about personal attack by asking you a direct question yet you are the one who approve DOP’s comment about me beating the wife. That sounds a lot more like a personal attack!

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this is an honest question and not a personal attack and answer this. However, I can't tonight. I'll respond in the morning, if you still want to discuss it.

This is the stupidest comment I ever seen at anytime. It is like me asking you if you still rape or incest or drink and drive just because a tiny minority in the west may do that. And wife battering is as much a western disease A clear case of personal attack and bigotry. Sad. I did remind you hours ago of your medication. Run and take them.

Do you still beat your wife?

1. And yet this "controversial" item persists and is having a surge in popularity, especially in the West. 2. My arguments against these covers go beyond just that they are misogynistic. They are harmful physically, psychologically, emotionally. They affect not just women, but men and how they relate to women and they affect the children who are forced into them. This information is not well broadcast. You have to go looking for it. And the ones who do try to broadcast it end up having to hire bodyguards even when they are in free countries. Hirsi Ali, for just one,as you know. Others were killed. And No, I don't think most Muslim women have fully researched it, the same as the majority of people born into a religion never research it fully. It's a scary thing to do that. And its even scarier to disagree with a high-control religion, there are implications for family, community, friend relationships. And then you need to make a choice - go along with it, or leave it all behind. Not everyone has that strength, so even if they sense something is wrong, they won't "go there" in their mind. So basically, I think Muslim women are the same as everyone else - few will research their religion seriously. Fewer still will have the fortitude it rakes to face up honestly to what they find. And even fewer still would be willing to risk leaving it. It's much easier to just say, "It's my choice."

It is a new thread and likely different audience and we both know no one here is a hijab and burqa lover/fan/supporter, just because I respect a woman's choice even if I personally don't agree with that choice. With all my posts encouraging support for Iranian women struggling for freedom of choice on not having to wear Islamic hijab I don't know how can anyone reach the conclusion that I may be a a hijab and burqa lover/fan/supporter!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously!!!!! I would like an answer, as what you are going to do against those who CHOOSE to wear hijab in the Canada?

Actùally I have posted my idea on how to handle this in Canada already on this forum. But I didn't get the impression that you were really wanting an answer. It was presented as a personal attack because obviously if I'm not a hijab and burqa lover/fan/supporter that means I go around assaulting those who do.

There's probably a fatwa out on me right now. Haha

Yes, I noticed that because the personal attacks start when people are out of debate: FYI I've always been in the West. And no, I don't feel that I should make their choices because I'm smarter than them. I'm smarter then them because I actually got off my ass and researched my former religion and all it's doctrines and beliefs and then....... MADE AN INFORMED CHOICE. That is all these women need. Information and Education. Withholding the true nature of hijabs and burquas, romanticising and legitimizing the garments is withholding the information they need to also make an informed choice. This information was withheld from them in their former Islam-ruled countries and here, we withhold it from them out of some kind of misplaced pity or whatever. You know what started me researching my former religion? People calling me out on my bullshit choices. If, after researching the history and purpose of the covers a woman THEN chooses to wear it.....I am in total agreement with her choice to wear it. Because then it will be an informed choice.

I know that I never buy or sell stocks without checking out what Rapper Jay-Z ( Shawn Corey Carter ) has to say.

On the weekend Trump went after Rapper Jay-Z saying that AA unemployment is the lowest in History. During the campaign, Trump said several times that the reported unemployment rate is wildly inaccurate. At one point saying it was, in reality, close to 30%. I guess now that he's in charge it's 100% accurate.

I think JT should make groups looking for public funding sign a form saying they oppose FGM and Honour Killings.

What a stupid thing to say. Are you suggesting having a problem with an unsolicited dick is excluse to being a Liberal. Some times you say really stupid things. This is your most stupid. This has nothing to do with Liberal or Conservative and everything to do with sexual moral standards of anyone of any gender or partisan persuasion. Stop trying to turn this into a partisan issue. Should I know say your values for saying the above are required to be a sanctimonious Liberal holier than thou fart head?

These Christian charitable groups spend a lot of time, effort and money to help people in need. They never ask for attestations or ask what a persons belief system is before giving their time and money, but I could imagine the outrage if they ever did.

Apparently the prospect of democracy was so completely unreasonable in Iran in 1953 that we actually went out of our way to prevent it. Strange but true.