Canada Federal Carbon Dioxide CO2 Tax

[Army Guy]

On 4/12/2019 at 2:45 AM, August1991 said:

And a single Canadian soldier did nothing to defeat Nazi Germany.

====

farrightnonsense,

Please read Tolstoi.

So please explain to all of us HOW this Canadian Carbon tax is going to fight climate change...With all the research being done today, proving this whole tax you more is going to lower our emissions is BS to the high extreme, even BC has come out and said consumption has increased, WTF .........how is this going to lower our carbon emission rates, please explain it to me.... 

[Michael Hardner]

On 4/12/2019 at 1:51 AM, August1991 said:

 But you raise a good point, farrightnonsense: if Justin Trudeau (and his PMO) were serious about CO2 emissions, he (they) would not be flying around the world in jets emitting CO2.

Emitting CO2 is not a 'sin'.  If you emit a single molecule you are not a bad person or we'd all have to hold our breaths.  There are necessary uses and maybe flying can still happen, especially flying somewhere to set global environmental policy ?

Is it me or are we talking more and more about points that should be self-evident.

[Michael Hardner]

11 hours ago, Army Guy said:

So please explain to all of us HOW this Canadian Carbon tax is going to fight climate change... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Australia

They did it in Australia and emissions went down, although it was disputed that the tax had anything to do with it.  Taxes went down for those making less than $80K also.

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Australia

They did it in Australia and emissions went down, although it was disputed that the tax had anything to do with it.  Taxes went down for those making less than $80K also.

 

GHG emissions have been reduced more in the United States without a national carbon tax.    Canada is not Australia or the U.S.

Conflating energy taxes and rebates with climate change policy only increases conclusions that it is a tax grab.

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

1. GHG emissions have been reduced more in the United States without a national carbon tax.    Canada is not Australia or the U.S.

2. Conflating energy taxes and rebates with climate change policy only increases conclusions that it is a tax grab.

1. Why not in Canada ?  Does it have something to do with coal markets and international energy markets ?

2. Conflating ?  Isn't the entire thing part of climate change policy ?  I don't see how it would seem like less of a tax grab without some reason for it ?

[bush_cheney2004]

26 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Why not in Canada ?  Does it have something to do with coal markets and international energy markets ?

2. Conflating ?  Isn't the entire thing part of climate change policy ?  I don't see how it would seem like less of a tax grab without some reason for it ?

 

1.   Who knows....Canada has not been able to achieve emissions reductions goals since the Kyoto Treaty fail...regardless of ruling party and taxes.   Canadians use more energy per capita and also have energy intensive industry for domestic use and export.  

2.   Is it ?   How can the Canadian government credibly champion carbon taxes for emissions reductions while concurrently owning and supporting pipeline expansions ?   Tax and rebate schemes are not revenue neutral when all factors are considered.   Paying $1.69 CAD per litre today apparently is not going over well even in BC.

 

Edited April 15, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

1.   Who knows....Canada has not been able to achieve emissions reductions goals since the Kyoto Treaty fail...regardless of ruling party and taxes.   Canadians use more energy per capita and also have energy intensive industry for domestic use and export.  

2.   Is it ?   How can the Canadian government credibly champion carbon taxes for emissions reductions while concurrently owning and supporting pipeline expansions ?   Tax and rebate schemes are not revenue neutral when all factors are considered.   Paying $1.69 CAD per litre today apparently is not going over well even in BC.

 

Actually BC’s economy has the fastest growth in the country despite having the longest carbon tax history. 

Yes Canada is an energy intensive country due to resource extraction, cold long winters, and great transport distances.  

Most Canadian provinces have seen drops in emissions. Ontario phased out coal and saw big drops.  I prefer cap and trade to the carbon tax some provinces have.  We have to do something.  Canada’s rise in emissions is largely due to Alberta.  Pipelines will actually reduce emissions by reducing the use of trucks and trains. 

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Actually BC’s economy has the fastest growth in the country despite having the longest carbon tax history.

 

Different topic...consumers are complaining about the added tax on top of supply scarcity prices due to Washington state refinery maintenance.  

 

Quote

Most Canadian provinces have seen drops in emissions. Ontario phased out coal and saw big drops.  I prefer cap and trade to the carbon tax some provinces have.  We have to do something.  Canada’s rise in emissions is largely due to Alberta.  Pipelines will actually reduce emissions by reducing the use of trucks and trains. 

 

The OECD has not been impressed by Canada's emissions reductions to date.   Doing something just for appearances sake is not really doing anything.

Edited April 15, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

30 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Different topic...consumers are complaining about the added tax on top of supply scarcity prices due to Washington state refinery maintenance.  

 

 

The OECD has not been impressed by Canada's emissions reductions to date.   Doing something just for appearances sake is not really doing anything.

Well what’s your solution?  Killing the oil sands won’t fly.  Not having a climate change policy to reduce emissions isn’t on either.  Ontario, BC and Quebec have made big moves, even though recent government changes in Ontario will stop the push.  Ford’s public transit funding should actually help lower emissions eventually. Trudeau has imposed a carbon tax across the country.  It’s not going to make much difference to climate change and many argue it’s just an added cost people can’t afford, even though much of the money will be returned to consumers.  You’re going to see the negative effects of Trump’s deregulation in the environment soon enough.  Look at water in parts of Michigan.  

Edited April 15, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well what’s your solution?  Killing the oil sands won’t fly.  Not having a climate change policy to reduce emissions isn’t on either.  Ontario, BC and Quebec have made big moves, even though recent government changes in Ontario will stop the push.  Trudeau has imposed a carbon tax across the country.  It’s not going to make much difference to climate change and many argue it’s just an added cost people can’t afford, even though much of the money will be returned to consumers.  

 

Not my call, but previous Canadian governments (both parties) have directly and passively decided to actually do nothing in favour of economic and domestic political factors.   A portion of carbon taxes may be returned to some consumers, but it is an inefficient burden on economic activity at many levels, reducing Canada's already lagging productivity and competitiveness.  As you noted, several provinces are already pushing back on a carbon tax scheme that may satisfy Trudeau's ego but will have little impact on total emissions.

Cap and trade is just another scheme that moves emissions around more than reducing them.

I have personal experience with a near zero emissions energy source that could/should be part of any solution...it is called nuclear power.

 

[Zeitgeist]

21 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not my call, but previous Canadian governments (both parties) have directly and passively decided to actually do nothing in favour of economic and domestic political factors.   A portion of carbon taxes may be returned to some consumers, but it is an inefficient burden on economic activity at many levels, reducing Canada's already lagging productivity and competitiveness.  As you noted, several provinces are already pushing back on a carbon tax scheme that may satisfy Trudeau's ego but will have little impact on total emissions.

Cap and trade is just another scheme that moves emissions around more than reducing them.

I have personal experience with a near zero emissions energy source that could/should be part of any solution...it is called nuclear power.

 

Bring on more nuclear power, more hydro, and in certain viable locations, solar and wind.  My understanding is that nuclear can be an expensive option in terms of maintenance.  Again though, emissions from energy production are mostly a nonissue in Ontario and B.C.  I do think that coal should be phased out across the country.  We’re pretty rich in potential hydro production, but sure, nuclear should probably be part of the mix.  

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Bring on more nuclear power, more hydro, and in certain viable locations, solar and wind.  My understanding is that nuclear can be an expensive option in terms of maintenance.  Again though, emissions from energy production are mostly a nonissue in Ontario and B.C.  I do think that coal should be phased out across the country.  We’re pretty rich in potential hydro production, but sure, nuclear should probably be part of the mix.  

 

Canada is more than just Ontario and B.C., and several provinces are far more dependent on fossil fuels.  Not only is this a direct concern for economic viability in the case of Alberta, it is a base load dependency for other provinces.  Hydro is great, but not without environmental impact as well.   Obviously, Trudeau's climate change initiatives have just inflamed the underlying provincial conflicts that have existed in the past. 

When/if provincial economic activity is impacted negatively by all these political machinations for climate change, there will be a direct reduction in GHG emissions....hardly the approach that many would support.    Recessions are great for emissions reductions !

[Rue]

On 2/20/2007 at 10:19 PM, August1991 said:

There is no other feasible solution to limiting Canada's CO2 emissions which are a major source of greenhouse gas emissions.

A regulated solution will just lead to another bureaucratic dance orchestrated from Ottawa. Nor can the federal government pass this ball off to provincial governments. Only a federal tax will work.

Ideally, the feds must impose a tax on anyone who emits CO2 into the atmosphere. The tax should apply at the moment of emission (or as close to that as possible) so that we create the correct incentives to limit them. This would also create an incentive to develop mechanisms for sequestration.

I would suggest two approaches to a carbon tax:

First, start small with the potential to ratchet up the tax according to its effects.

Second, return all carbon tax revenues to the province where the tax was collected. The revenues of the carbon tax could be refunded to the provincial governments or ideally to individuals.

This is the simplest, most cost effective way to deal with this problem.

Offsets are not a solution and risk to become another placebo. (Offsets are the latest stylish buzz word. People as varied as David Suzuki, the Bare Naked Ladies and Lancome's supermodels all employ offsets. This means they give money abroad and then claim that this reduces the CO2 emissions equal to the emissions of their own travel and lifestyle. Offsets are a private version of Kyoto.)

Your comments make no economic sense and illustrate what happens when people are not taught basic economics or human behaviour in school.

Simply charging a tax does nothing to change behaviour for an addict. Addicts are captive taxpayers who will pay any amount of tax and keep engaging in their habit.

Charging tax on addictive behaviour is dishonest. It does not encourage change of any kind it just exploits addicts.

Drug addicts, alcoholics, gamblers, don't stop their behaviour when you tax it.

People are addicted to gasoline. They will not stop using it if its available. They will just pay more, pass on the expense whenever possible, and this will do nothing but fuel inflation to prices of all goods which will also be taxed again on gst.

This carbon tax is nothing more than a tax increase using carbon emissions as the pretext. Its a tax increase because this government has spent itself into a deficit that will cost many generations for centuries to come long after this idiot of a PM is long gone.

If this government really wanted to deal with carbon emission it would provide tax incentives to industries and technologies reducing emission and creating systems and applications to rid emissions. It does not.

The money earned on carbon tax is not earmarked for carbon emissions technology to deal with the problem. Its a tax to pay for all the spending and carbon emissions is nothing more than the script or spin or pretext to pretend its a good tax.  

This jackass of a PM panders. He panders to the cause of the day posing with whoever and whatever cause he thinks will get him votes. He is a political whore of the worst kind because he poses as if he is ethical and concerned about others. He could care less about carbon tax. He's demonstrated that in his own behaviour and in his refusal to use it directly for carbon emissions.

I have unlike some of the Liberal cult followers on this board, no illusions what his taxes will be used for. Hey he will though give Loblaws some grants on between private flights to and from his vacations.

Have anyone who wants to lecture me on co2 taxes Show me how it will be used to actually provide an alternative to co2 emissions. Until they can, they just pass methane into the air contributing to the problem.

Regards,

an over taxed citizen concerned about Liberal methane emissions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Rue

[GostHacked]

We don't need a carbon tax.  We need quality leadership in government that is not propping up mafia corporations and wasting BILLIONS of dollars on certain projects.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-could-tell-you-when-to-drive-if-carbon-price-law-stands-court-told-1.4379832

Quote

The federal law, Hunter also said, puts a "tax" on ordinary people every time they drive to work or heat their homes, which he said was too much of a burden.

I already pay taxes on the purchase of the car.

I pay taxes on renewing my plates.

I pay taxes on the gas in my car.

I pay taxes via income tax.

I pay taxes on my hydro and natural gas bills.

I pay taxes on everything. 

Rue has a big valid point with people will simply pay to pollute.  We can look at industry for that example of carbon credits. Large industries have no problem with paying more to pollute. And I guess if all us peons reduced our emissions, industry can then pollute more. Industries would and are taking total advantage of it.

 

[Zeitgeist]

12 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

We don't need a carbon tax.  We need quality leadership in government that is not propping up mafia corporations and wasting BILLIONS of dollars on certain projects.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-could-tell-you-when-to-drive-if-carbon-price-law-stands-court-told-1.4379832

I already pay taxes on the purchase of the car.

I pay taxes on renewing my plates.

I pay taxes on the gas in my car.

I pay taxes via income tax.

I pay taxes on my hydro and natural gas bills.

I pay taxes on everything. 

Rue has a big valid point with people will simply pay to pollute.  We can look at industry for that example of carbon credits. Large industries have no problem with paying more to pollute. And I guess if all us peons reduced our emissions, industry can then pollute more. Industries would and are taking total advantage of it.

 

I think the Liberals will be out for this and other reasons, but the Conservatives will need a majority to repeal the carbon tax.  Four provinces are fighting the Liberals in court over it.  

[taxme]

On 4/10/2019 at 1:04 AM, August1991 said:

Bump.

=====

The advantage of a CO2 tax is that, contrary to regulation, it can easily, clearly be rescinded - Harper cut the GST from 7% to 5%.

Moreover, unlike regulations that are subject to lobbying, a CO2 tax is the same for all.

======

We don't yet know whether CO2 levels are truly rising (despite measures in Mauna Loa) and we don't yet know whether, if they're rising, this matters - given sea absorption. 

Nevertheless, I can see the logic of human CO2 emissions. So, I view CO2 reduction as an insurance policy. And I want to pay the premium, buy insurance, at the smallest price.

Hence, I favour a CO2 tax over regulation. I also like the idea of refunding tax revenue equally to everyone.

  

Without CO2 we would all be dead. We need CO2 in the air to survive. The earth is quite capable of taking care of the CO2 problem if it gets to a high point. Nature will even start a fire somewhere itself in order to eliminate too much CO2 in the air. The CO2 tax carbon climate change liars are spreading just that. LIES. And the sad part is that people eat up all these lies like they were candy. Wake up sheeple, you are being made fools of every day by liars who either want your vote or want your money. Stop listening to their lies. And if these climate barbie and Benton types are so concerned about their precious climate then go after China. China is one of the biggest producers of carbon. Why does not one Canadian politician say anything about this? Hello out there? 

Edited April 15, 2019 by taxme

[taxme]

22 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

We don't need a carbon tax.  We need quality leadership in government that is not propping up mafia corporations and wasting BILLIONS of dollars on certain projects.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-could-tell-you-when-to-drive-if-carbon-price-law-stands-court-told-1.4379832

I already pay taxes on the purchase of the car.

I pay taxes on renewing my plates.

I pay taxes on the gas in my car.

I pay taxes via income tax.

I pay taxes on my hydro and natural gas bills.

I pay taxes on everything. 

Rue has a big valid point with people will simply pay to pollute.  We can look at industry for that example of carbon credits. Large industries have no problem with paying more to pollute. And I guess if all us peons reduced our emissions, industry can then pollute more. Industries would and are taking total advantage of it.

 

I think what all Canadians need is to pay more taxes. Canadians are not paying enough. Canadians love paying more taxes. Why? Because they never complain about them and never try to get them lowered. Therefore they must like and want to pay more taxes and our politically correct puppet on a string spend crazy politicians will gladly cooperate and help Canadians in adding a few more bucks of their money to the governments coffers. Just saying. 

[Army Guy]

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Australia

They did it in Australia and emissions went down, although it was disputed that the tax had anything to do with it.  Taxes went down for those making less than $80K also.

Yes they are touting the same thing in BC...I also read in the SNC scandal , that the government would run a false media campaign to turn public opinion around...Is this is what is happening now, not sure but, I , m not putting it by them. 

There are plenty of sites out there that say the carbon taxes do not work....Here is some of them. I gave a large variety in case you did not like some of the sources, and while some out right deny it works , there are a few that say it has had some benefits, but would not translate across the entire country... 

The numbers do not add up, if a couple cents 4.5 in NB are going to persuade enough drivers to stop and think about driving or to walk , is very optimistic at best....fuel here is just getting to 1.30 here, and has been as high as 1,65 and even then people did not over whelm public transport, buy smaller cars, BTW the most popular veh stolen in Canada is big ass gas guzzling trucks....there are a 40 /60 spilt of pick-ups to trucks here in NB....with no decline in sight.. http://www.ibc.ca/nb/auto/theft/top-ten-stolen-cars?p=National

I don't see a lower consumption rate any time soon, atleast one that would drastically lower our carbon foot print....while any decline would be a good thing , we are looking for much better results....
While lowering my taxes is a good thing, how is this any good for the environment, the more disposalable income I have the more I'm going to consume, and most if not all products take fossil fuels to produce won't this just negate any gains you've made.....

I find it funney that there are NO programs designed to further cut our carbon foot print with this carbon tax...., no rebates on solar , or wind power, better insulation of you home, other alt fuel projects, etc etc...No projects that would steer industry into making say a smaller, more fuel efficient engine to replace V-8 on todays market, or cities to put more electric buses on the road, electric snow plow vehs, etc....  

https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2016/03/08/BC-Carbon-Tax-Failure/

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/01/11/BC-Carbon-Tax-Success-Explained/

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/tags/bc-carbon-tax

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/carbon-taxes-do-they-work-it-s-a-good-question-1.3887729

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/look-to-b-c-for-evidence-carbon-tax-doesnt-work/

https://ipolitics.ca/2016/03/25/are-we-sure-b-c-s-carbon-tax-is-working/

[August1991]

On 4/10/2019 at 10:35 AM, farrightnonsense said:

this tax does nothing to help our climate and I can't believe we are now paying tax on top of another tax.

It's the price of an insurance policy.

 

[August1991]

On 4/14/2019 at 7:28 PM, Army Guy said:

So please explain to all of us HOW this Canadian Carbon tax is going to fight climate change...With all the research being done today, proving this whole tax you more is going to lower our emissions is BS to the high extreme, even BC has come out and said consumption has increased, WTF .........how is this going to lower our carbon emission rates, please explain it to me.... 

Well, Army Guy.... How did my mother's first husband defeat the Nazis?

But you make two good points.

If people like Suzuki and Gore and Trudeau Jnr were serious about this threat, they would not fly around the world spewing CO2. (Churchill may have flown, but he never did anything to support Nazis.)

Second, a single soldier doesn't defeat the enemy. 

[August1991]

17 hours ago, Rue said:

....

Simply charging a tax does nothing to change behaviour for an addict. Addicts are captive taxpayers who will pay any amount of tax and keep engaging in their habit.

Charging tax on addictive behaviour is dishonest. It does not encourage change of any kind it just exploits addicts.

....

Define "addict".

IMV, raising the price of anything, reduces its consumption. (True, in some cases, a rise in "price" signals attractiveness - but I doubt this applies to "addicts" unless they're collectors.)

In general in my experience, if the cost of something rises, people do/want less of it.

[August1991]

To make my thoughts clear:

1. I favour a small tax rate on all CO2 emissions set by the federal government - with tax revenues returned to each province based on taxes paid.

2. I also favour the GST. 

3. But I understand why Harper cut the GST, and why Chretien promised to cut the GST but didn't.

Edited April 16, 2019 by August1991
spelling

[Rue]

11 hours ago, August1991 said:

Define "addict".

IMV, raising the price of anything, reduces its consumption. (True, in some cases, a rise in "price" signals attractiveness - but I doubt this applies to "addicts" unless they're collectors.)

In general in my experience, if the cost of something rises, people do/want less of it.

 For tax purposes and whether tax will change their behaviour...when  I say addict, I mean a consumer who feels he or she does not have the power to change their consumer behaviour. If they feel they have no power to change the behaviour you are taxing, I argue they won't change they will just be vulnerable to the tax and will sacrifice other needs to pay that tax  leading to other social and psychological related negative behaviours.

My point is only this-use the power of taxes in a more focused way not just a disguised cash grab.

Take a look at BC. Trudeau's carbon tax is just a repeat of Christy Clark's carbon tax in BC and the tax in BC has made zero difference on co2 emissions.

That's why I say to you-show me how you intend to use the tax for changing the negative behaviour.... where's the connection. Let's get serious on understanding how economy and human behaviour work and the relation between the 2. 

Sorry but as long as the polluters control our governments, I do not believe for a second our governments will use any taxes they collect to protect the environment.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Rue

[taxme]

11 hours ago, August1991 said:

It's the price of an insurance policy.

 

What insurance policy are you talking about? Please explain this one to me. 

[taxme]

11 hours ago, August1991 said:

Well, Army Guy.... How did my mother's first husband defeat the Nazis?

But you make two good points.

If people like Suzuki and Gore and Trudeau Jnr were serious about this threat, they would not fly around the world spewing CO2. (Churchill may have flown, but he never did anything to support Nazis.)

Second, a single soldier doesn't defeat the enemy. 

Suzuki, Gore and kid PM are contributing a hell of a lot of C02 into the atmosphere. They would prefer to take a plane rather than a bus or would prefer to take a car two blocks rather than walk. Hypocrites, all of them. It's amazing how people will just go along with what they tell them without ever asking them any real and hard questions. They call those people a bunch of dummies and zombies. And there are so many of them out there which is enough to want to make a grown man cry. I am starting to feel a bit teary eyed. 

The carbon tax is just another theft of taxpayer's hard earned dollars. Why do people continue to believe those liars who continue to spread the bs and fear monger the fools into believing that the world will come to an end in twelve years? Really? How the hell would that dumb Ocasio know that? Did some so-called "expert" tell her that? It's no wonder politicians and those people mentioned above treat their citizens and people with contempt. They deserve it. The citizens will believe just about every thing that these liars will throw at them. 

What would the world be like if we did not need to have soldiers anymore? All countries abolished their military. Peace at last in the world, finally? What an idea, eh?