Israel

[Argus]

Sure, why not. Let's start with the Zionist movement of the late 1800's. That's where it started.

I think it started quite a long time before that, actually...

[Hal 9000]

Perception is reality. The Palestinians believe that it is their land and that Israel was created by some outside force without their support and consent. They plan to take it back.

The Israelis believe that they were also there at the start, maybe not a nation but a presence, and are entitled to create a nation and are prepared to expand it into where they believe their boundaries should be.

Both sides are prepared to kill or be killed to attain those ends.

So be it.

I can guarantee one thing, Israel will not give up Jerusalem without extreme force applied to them. Israel has already been on the wrong side of genocide and i'd wager their in no hurry to allow that again. If you guys are getting your panties in a twist over this spat, just wait until the battle for Jerusalem, AKA WW3.

[Big Guy]

I think it started quite a long time before that, actually...

I agree. It is ironic that this region was considered as the "cradle of civilization" when it was what we call Mesopotamia. That was probably the last time that it was a stable society.

[WestCoastRunner]

U.S. flights to Tel Aviv have been banned. Europe has recommended flights should not fly there. Netanyahu is whining of course. What does he expect?

[Smallc]

It's almost as if you're blaming him for something that he isn't causing.

[marcus]

I agree. It is ironic that this region was considered as the "cradle of civilization" when it was what we call Mesopotamia. That was probably the last time that it was a stable society.

It was a stable society before the mass Zionist immigration from Europe in the early 1900's. When the 90%+ Arab population lived side by side and as neighbours with the Jews and Christians.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, Jews and Christians were only tolerated in the Ottoman Empire as secondary, "sub humans" who were subjected to taxes (jiyzya) and many other millet restrictions to assure continued dominance of the majority Muslim population.

[marcus]

Actually, in the early 1900's the taxes were not different. It was a stable society and they lived peacefully before the European Jews started migrating over.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nonsense...see "Armenian Genocide".

Edited July 23, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

BC Chick are you still into your revisionist shtick about Israelis being non indigenous? Really. After all this time that's the best you can do, recycle this revisionist clap trap that Jews were dropped out of the sky by Jew storks? I am going to challenge you. Bare with me because I am gonna blast you but I do so out of respect. If I did not care what you think I would not respond as I do.

Can you get real please. To try argue at this point Jews are not indigenous to the Middle East is absurd. You want to pretend Jews have not lived in Israel since ancient days and precede the Muslim world go ahead. Its pointless, but knock yourself out.

As well, you can pretend when Jews fled from the holocaust and discrimination of Europe they were in fact colonialist oppressors. You can pretend they were not fleeing the very same colonialists who then teamed up with the Arab world to try rid the Middle East of Jews.

You can pretend the origins of the Palestinian Nationalist movement did not start with the Mullah of Jerusalem who was a guest of Hitler and sat out the war in Berlin in a captured Jewish home broadcasting to the Middle East daily that Arabs should engage in genocide of all Jews.

You can pretend he was not instrumental in implementing the use of cynide gas to wipe out Jews in concentration camps.

You can pretend Palestinians up to 1967 ridiculed the very name Palestinian and called for a Sunni caliphate state merging Syria,Lebanon Jordan and the West Bank into it.

You can pretend Arafat did not fail to kill King Hussein and take over Jordan and only then in 1967 after the failed coups coin the phrase Palestinian.

You can pretend the vast majority of today's self pro-claimed Palestinians are in fact descended from Arab Muslims who were just as much outsiders as Jews who came to Palestine in the 1920's-30's and in fact flooded the area because of a blatantly illegal immigration scheme created by the British government to flood Palestine with Muslims to prevent a Jewish state.

You can pretend today's Palestinians are all descended from displaced Palestinians of the past.

You can pretend the majority of Israelis today were not born since you say they are not indigenous. Hey you made the sweeping generalization about Israelis that necessarily states they were not born their not me.

You can pretend Palestinians don't already have a Palestinian state, Jordan, that in its constitution prohibits Jews from citizenship, refers to itself as a Palestinian state and in fact was created in direct violation to the League of Nations mandate and you can pretend Transjordan which was only supposed to be a temporary kingdom as the British called it, did not become a permanent Jew free Palestinian nation that allowed anyone calling themselves a Palestinian automatic citizenship until the failed coups by Arafat.

You can pretend the Palestinian refugees were not deliberately created by the Arab League as they said "to remind the world" that until Jews were thrown out of Israel they would remain hostage as pawns to remind the world. You can pretend those speeches by the Arab League do not exist referring to Palestinians as pawns. You can pretend the Arab League of nations to this day keeps them caged in camps not Israel. You can pretend the GAza Strip was not created by Egypt as an open air prison for Palestinians.

You can pretend the Palestinian Authority's charter does not refer to its nation as a MUSLIM nation requiring people pledge allegiance to Allah.

You can pretend Hamas is not a terrorist organization with a Charter calling on a holy war against all Jews and likethe PA will never accept a Jewish nation and never renounce violence or that it has stated over and over any truce it enters into will not be permanent just a pause until Israel becomes a Muslim caliphate..

You can pretend its acceptable for the entire Middle East to have Muslim nations but not a Jewish one.

You can pretend in Muslim nations Jews, Christians,Bahaiis, Berbers. Kurds, Assyrians, Druze, Zoroastreans,Buddists, Hindus, Atheists, gays, feminists, trade unionists, are all treated as equals.

You can pretend There is no dhimmitude in the Arab world that traps Jews in an apartheid system of oppression. You can also pretend there is no slave trade of black African Muslims int he Arab League of Nations and no oppression of Pakistani,Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, Fillippino, Indonesian Muslims.

Oh hell you can pretend there is no corruption, violence, inter-Muslim religious wars and that the Muslim world is a utopia of freedom and enlightened living. Oh heck yes, we all want to live in Saudi Arabia where BC Chick can not drive alone and must cover her face.

You can pretend the very pith and substance of the refusal to accept a Jewish state is not the Muslim religious belief that a Jew can not be equal to a Muslim and therefore have a nation let alone own land in the Muslim world.

You can also pretend more Jews were not displaced from Arab League nations then alleged Palestinians were by Israel.

Go for it BC. But why? What is the point? You think Jews will just magically go poof and Israel will cease to exist. You want to play along with that tune? Kill dah Jooz has been playing since 1948. Isn't it time to write a new song. How about instead, some song like

Midnight at the Oasis. That's a bit before your time.Maria Muldaur. Or try Roy Buchanaan's waiting for that Messiah guitar homage to futility. Oh heck there's always Bob Marley's One Love.

The fact is the Jews have survived repeated attempts at discrimination, massacre and genocide in the Christian world, the Muslim world and Israelis the culmination of that survival, Israel is the culmination of an existential struggle to avoid extinction and say never again will we sit passively by and watch ourselves be massacred.

The fact is Jews survived to genocide attempts in the the 1940's, one in Europe and one in Palestine.

You pretend. You set up your double standard about Jews being European invaders. Pretend we invaded Palestine and many Jews of Israel are not Mitzrahi-Tsfardic Jews and are just as much Arabs as Muslim Arabs.

Pretend all you want. It means nothing. Israel will do what it has to, to protect its people.

The attempt to delegitimize the Jewish identity,Jewish history, the right of Jews to live in their own country, its all part of the package. You once again demonstrate this is not about criticizing Israeli policies-its all about denying Jewish history and are right to have liberated ourselves from oppression and that is precisely why its referred to as the new anti-Semitism. Its just a recycled version of denying Jews exist as a people, as a nation, as a collective.

That denial and the double standard is anti-Semitic. It discriminates in that it has zero problem with Muslims or Christians having a nation but not Jews.

It is anti-Semitism. You can state and I actually would believe you, that you do not hate Jews. I do not think you do. I think you are a genuine leftist who thinks she has it all figured out who the underdog is and sees Jews as white colonialist invaders.Sure.

But it is what it is. You deny our collective right to exist and that is a basic form of anti-Semitism.

We have a right to exist as Jews in Israel terror free, Stop using this latest crisis as a platform to deny our right to exist as a collective of Jews no matter how well intentioned you think your politics is.

In your case, I know you genuinely believe innocent civilians are suffering and you think Israel is to blame for it. I do not think you "hate" Israel because you deliberately hate Jews. I do believe however you have accepted a line of revisionist b.s. that defines Jews as not having the same rights as Palestinians and that is why you try pretend we are not indigenous to the Middle East or the attacks by the IDF come in a vacuum.

There it is. My comments are meant to challenge and debate you not personally attack you. Get this clear I believe you are a genuine idealist and your views are based on non hatred.. I just think you are dead wrong and I have explained why.

I share your exact same concerns that innocent civilians do not die. No one wants what is happening except for terrorists and extremists and such people whoever they are, should be condemned.

The death of innocent civilian is a tragedy. A sheer tragedy but to think Hamas will be able to use its civilians as a pr tool to obtain sympathy while it launches missiles at Israel and digs tunnels and continues its war, uh no. Aint happening. People like Netanyahu don't care if you like them,

Right now moderates like me are in war mode. You want to talk peace? Put down the missiles. Disarm. Disassociate from terrorism, recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Then. everything is possible.

We are still in 1948 with the Arab League of Nations,Abbas and terrorists all united in their belief a Jewish state can not exist.

Well good, because the person I support Tzip Levni, has no problem putting her differences aside with Netanyahu and supporting him.

Netanyahus of the world are created in direct response to terrorism. They come about to protect against terrorism. You want Netanyahu to stop protecting his people? Stop poking him with a stick. He's not a dog. He's a Jew not afraid to be a Jew. Perish that thought.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Rue

[Argus]

U.S. flights to Tel Aviv have been banned. Europe has recommended flights should not fly there. Netanyahu is whining of course. What does he expect?

I imagine the Israelis will now step up efforts at crushing Hamas.

[GostHacked]

Geeze, two peoples, both indigenous to the area, are STILL fighting after all this time. Let's glass it all over and call it a day, ALL of it. Too extreme?

[bush_cheney2004]

Mike Bloomberg flew to Israel to protest FAA ban and support Israel's right to defend itself from terrorists:

(CNN) - Former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg arrived in Israel Wednesday, after flying to the country from New York to protest a ban by the Federal Aviation Administration that is preventing U.S. airlines from flying into or out of Israel's Ben Gurion International Airport.

Bloomberg tweeted that he landed "safely " at Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv, adding that he's there "to show support for Israel's right to defend itself."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/22/bloomberg-flying-to-israel-to-protest-faa-ban/

[BC_chick]

Rue, I was scrolling up the thread and when I came across a post went on and on and on and on and on. I knew it had to be you, who else, but my true dismay came when I scrolled to the top and saw that it was addressed to me. That meant I had to either read the first chapter of your novel or pretend to ignore it - so I waited until I had a bit more time to read it.

I'm sorry though, you lost me where you said I deny your collective right to exist. That right there is pure nonsense. If Zionism had failed 60 years ago, Jewish people would still have a collective right to exist. If Israel ceases to exist tomorrow (not that it would, but rhetorically), Jewish people still have a collective right to exist.

1) please quit conflating the two and 2) don't use it as a basis to call someone anti-Semitic. That's a straw man argument and an ad hominem attacked wrapped up in one.

The one thing I did read though in the beginning of your post which I'll address - Semitic Jews are indigenous to the middle-east, certainly, but when I say that the native Palestinians are getting kicked out for people who are not indigenous to the area, I was talking about the Ashkenazi Jews of European descent.

Again, you conflate the two.

[BC_chick]

Once upon a time, there was an oppressed group called the Kurds who lived, mostly, in Iraq and surrounding areas. One day the Iraqi Kurds decided that they had been oppressed for too long, and they should form their own country. But instead of taking a piece of the land in existing Iraq, the Iraqi Kurds wanted to build their nation in Russia. Well, the diaspora does go that far and sure, there are Kurds in Russia too.

The Russians of course weren't game, but the UN steps in and gives the Kurds their own country in Russia. Hundreds of thousands of Russians lose their homes while Iraqi Kurds emigrate to their new country in Russia. Every time the Russians try to fight it, they lose more land. Soon Turkish and Armenian Kurds are setting up shop too, but little by little the Russians are getting squeezed out.

Well, of course the Kurds were historically in Russia too, so it therefore logically follows that the *Iraqi Kurds* are 'indigenous' to Russia too since there were Russian Kurds in the area (ahem, well that's common sense of course, right?!?).

Anyway, I digress. As Russians keep retaliating and losing more land, they are also subjected to live in areas where they're treated like second-rate citizens. The cycle of terror continues.

So I guess I'm just a misguided 'idealist' who must really hate Kurds because I honestly don't think Iraqi Kurds with no ties to Russia had any right to displace the locals just to form their new country.

Does that make me a Kurd-hater? Do I deny the Kurds the right to self-determination? No and no. I just have the practical sense to know that people just don't roll over and hand their land to an incoming party without giving up a fight.

Same thing goes for an ideology that came from Ashkenazi Jews with no ties to Palestine. If the fathers of Zionism (most European Jews) wanted to flee oppression they should've formed in Europe where they faced the oppression they were fleeting from.

Likewise, the Kurds should form their nation in Iraq, where they're oppressed - definitely not someone else's land.

Of course, people will argue that Semitic Jews in Israel are oppressed as are the Kurds in Russia, but in all honestly, that's not what fuelled the movement to form a country. It was the massive killing in Europe and Iraq that prompted the Jewish and Kurd movement, respectively.

The bottom line, make your oppressor pay, not the poor local who had nothing to do with your plight.

But's just me. Call me anti-Kurd all you want.

Edited July 24, 2014 by BC_chick

[TimG]

Same thing goes for an ideology that came from Ashkenazi Jews with no ties to Palestine. If the fathers of Zionism (most European Jews) wanted to flee oppression they should've formed in Europe where they were.

Yawn. So what? The past is the past and its makes no difference what you think *should* have happened. Your argument is no different than saying Canadian descendants of Europeans should have stayed in Europe.

What matters is today and today Israel exists and has a right to security. If Palestinians want peace and security too they need to do something about the violent thugs that live among them. There is absolutely nothing Israel can do as long as the thugs hold power.

[BC_chick]

You clearly missed the point, Tim. I know it can't be undone. I'm just pointing out how my feelings about the history of the regions does not make a Jew-hater any more than I am a Kurd-hater for believing their right to self-termination should not be at the expense of people who had nothing to do with their plight.

In case you haven't noticed, if you're anti-Zionism these days, you're a Jew-hater. Maybe you missed the memo?

[TimG]

I'm just pointing out how my feelings about the history of the regions does not make a Jew-hater any more than I am a Kurd-hater for believing their right to self-termination should not be at the expense of people who had nothing to do with their plight.

Replace Jew with white Canadians and Israel with Canada. I would say such an opinion would make you someone who hates white Canadians or at least someone who seeks to undermine their right to live their life in the country they were born in.

It is possible to suggest that some of Israel's policies are counter productive (i.e. settlements in the West Bank). But as soon as you start saying that Israel is illegitimate you are attacking the people who live there.

[Rue]

BC you note I went out of my way to see you are not Jew hater. I think however to deny the right of Jews a collective state is a form of anti-Semitism. It discriminates and says these are the only people in the world who can not have a state.

Look how you come up with this designation that if someone is descended from European Jews, i.e., are Ashkenazi somehow this makes them less credible as an Israeli citizen, it makes them a foreigner.

That is precisely what I challenge. Its nonsensical. Most of the self proclaimed Palestinian people today are Muslims who are not descended from Palestinians. Using your argument they have no right to be on the West Bank.

Nonsense. You use two standards one forJews and one for Muslims. A Jew with European parents or grandparents is ilegitimate but a Muslim descended from a Muslim Arab not from Palestine what are they?

That is the selectivity that discriminates and yes it is anti-Semitic. It defines Jews as non Jews based on where they were born or where their descendants come from but not Muslim Arabs. why? Why is your take on Jewish history selective and the Jews of Europe in your mind came from Europe and not the Middle East? How do you figure the Jews got there?

This is the part of the revisionist narrative I challenge. Its bull.

The fact is Jews, Christians and Muslims are all in indigenous to the Middle East. Its a pointless description.

We have to deal with the here and now-two people, one willing to live in peaceful co-existence and has proven that in the past, another whose leaders and politicians will not stop until Israel ceases to exist as a Jewish state.

Nothing has changed since 1948. This is about the leaders of Palestinians saying they will not stop until Israel has been dismantled. They willassure the death of every last one of their people if they have to, if they think that will achieve their goal.

The armchair experts who think they understand this mentality, this collective psyche that deems Jews as infidel in need of being destroyed zips over the head of sheltered Canadian gentiles who know nothing about either Muslim fundamentalist extremism or Jewish history.

With due respect I do not think you hate Jews intentionally or even consciously. I think you think you know all about Jewish and Arab history and when you define your double standards you think its fair.

That is why I bother to debate you and not say Hudson Jones or some of the others. They are not interested in two sides. I know you see two sides.

So I say this again-you see the posts on the other thread? They make statements like Israel dehumanizes Palestinians, they oppress, they occupy, basically any negative allegation that coms up...its part of the propaganda game. Its people who made up their mind that Israel should not exist. They then use the Gaza crisis as a platform to lobby names at Israel.

They will say things like Israel is losing the pr game and are liars and killers. The references are intended to slur all Israelis. They are desgned to deny their right to exist as a Jewish collective.

Should Palestinian civilians die. Of course not. Yesterday a hospital was blown up. Arm chair critics immediately screamed, its a war crime. A later satellite tape showed there were no patients in it. It was a military installation using the cover of being a hospital.

You understand that mentality? Of course not. You can not fathom that the current leader of Hamas deliberately gets his people killed. Its deliberate. He plans the number of people to die to get maximum impact on the news.

Israel is not perfect but it has to stop the rockets and terrorism. Its people want peace. They do not want to see Palestinian civilians die.

Go find them someone from Palestine who claims to lead his people who is willing to say, we can not wipe you out, so we need to learn to live side by sie with you.

Can you find that person? Please find me one Palestinian leader who has acknowledged Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.

Good luck.

Now if you want to find Zionist leaaderswho believe that Palestinians should have their own second state and live peacefully with Israelis, I can show you many.including Netanyahu who talked down the hardliners in Likud who want nothing to do with Palestinians at this point.

Unlike Abbas, Netanyahu brought into his cabinet people dead against his policies and he works with them, starting with Tzipi Levni. can we say the same about Abbas or Hamas. If they did not have Israel to fight, they would have destroyed each other long ago.

[Black Dog]

Yawn. So what? The past is the past and its makes no difference what you think *should* have happened. Your argument is no different than saying Canadian descendants of Europeans should have stayed in Europe.

What matters is today and today Israel exists and has a right to security. If Palestinians want peace and security too they need to do something about the violent thugs that live among them. There is absolutely nothing Israel can do as long as the thugs hold power.

That's completely bogus of course. For example, they could have facilitated the formation of the reconciliation government between Fatah and a increasingly desperate Hamas and worked with that government to build a functioning civil society in Gaza and the West Bank (which Israel essentially controls by virtue of its control over the borders and economy). instead, they chose obstructionism and intransigence.

Replace Jew with white Canadians and Israel with Canada. I would say such an opinion would make you someone who hates white Canadians or at least someone who seeks to undermine their right to live their life in the country they were born in.

It is possible to suggest that some of Israel's policies are counter productive (i.e. settlements in the West Bank). But as soon as you start saying that Israel is illegitimate you are attacking the people who live there.

I'm not sure what makes a state legitimate or not, but the religious basis for the Zionist claim on the land is certainly illegitimate.

[bush_cheney2004]

....I'm not sure what makes a state legitimate or not, but the religious basis for the Zionist claim on the land is certainly illegitimate.

Yeah...Israel needs the "real legitimacy" that only comes from a monarchy, imperialism, and subjugated "aboriginals".

[BC_chick]

The colonisation of the Americas, Tim? Seriously, you want to use that crime against humanity, one akin to slavery, as your comparison for creating a modern-day state?

The one that took place when people owned slaves and burned witches at the stake? Israel was created in the 20th century and it's a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Seriously, you might want to set the bar a bit higher than the events of a period we call The Dark Ages (for a reason).

Rue, please read my post about the Kurds. I cite the displacement of the native Palestinians for European Jews fleeing Europe as my reason for disagreeing with how Israel came to be, however, I am merely talking about the events of 60 years ago.

I don't hold the view that Palestinians are 'more' middle-eastern than Israelis just because they have more generations on the land. You are misrepresenting my view when you compare modern-day Israelis to the newly arrived who displaced the Palestinians.

Furthermore, while I disagree with how Israel came to be, I know that history can't be undone. What I would like to see happen is I would like to see Israel become more responsible in taking care of all its inhabitants including those living in occupied territories.

As far as Palestinians not recognizing the Israeli state, be honest with yourself, Israeli politicians do not recognize a Palestinian state either. Yes, up until quite recently when Netanyahu finally stopped pretending, they kept indicating that they do but just looking at the rate of expansion in the West Bank, it's obvious that there is no such intention.

Drive Israel to sea or drive Palestinians to Jordan? What's the difference?

You bring up moderate Israelis, but so what? On the flip side we have Abbas and we have the majority of Palestinians recognizing Israel but at the end of the day we have the Hamas types fighting the Netanyahu types.

So why am I sympathetic to the Palestinian side when both sides have good and bad? It's not liberal naivety as you'd like to think, I can think for myself. It comes down to this:

1) While I realise the violence is a continuous cycle, I agree with the initial grievance of the Palestinians as I indicated earlier.

2) The media makes this seem like a traditional 'war' with two sides fighting but only one side has a military. One side is not a country making every citizen free game to be justified as the 'enemy'.

3) Body count. You can discount it all you want, but it does matter.

Edited July 27, 2014 by BC_chick

[TimG]

The colonisation of the Americas, Tim? Seriously, you want to use that crime against humanity, one akin to slavery, as your comparison for creating a modern-day state?

Interesting you use such terms to describe the European migration yet you still don't acknowledge what a bigot you would be if you said that descendants of those European settlers had no right to be here today because of the past.

The ONLY thing that matters are the facts on the ground today and those facts include a state called Israel.

Israel was created in the 20th century and it's a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

And it is the ONLY state in the region that actually cares about such things. Talk about human rights in Jordan, Syria or Egypt and they would fall off their chairs laughing. But your revisionist history forgets one thing: there were Jews in Israel before the state was created. When Israel was created there were really only three options:

1) Let the Jews be persecuted/massacred by the Arabs like they are doing to Christians in Syria/Iraq today;

2) Force the Jews to relocated elsewhere at gunpoint;

3) Split the territory in two and create a Jewish state;

I suppose that given your "enlightened" views that 1) or 2) would have been much preferable than 3). Fortunately, the powers at the time had no desire to turn the Jews in victims again so soon after Holocaust.

But whatever your prejudices 3) is what happened and 3) is what needs to be the starting point today.

Edited July 27, 2014 by TimG

[jacee]

I think however to deny the right of Jews a collective state is a form of anti-Semitism. It discriminates and says these are the only people in the world who can not have a state.

Show me where anybody here has said that!

Can you find that person? Please find me one Palestinian leader who has acknowledged Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.

Who cares?!

Israel doesn't need their approval!

.

Edited July 27, 2014 by jacee

[Argus]

1) While I realise the violence is a continuous cycle, I agree with the initial grievance of the Palestinians as I indicated earlier.

So do you believe Hamas has a right to fire rockets at Israeli cities?

I'm sure you'd say no.

So do you feel Israel has no right to fight back?

You can talk about injustice all you want, but dealing with this specific situation the only think the Palestinians need to to stop the IDF is stop firing rockets into Israel.