Trump LIES that we are taking back OUR OIL from Venezuela

[Michael Hardner]

@User sorry I think I missed that your opinion is aligned with Trump on this so I have my answer on your opinion thanks.

[User]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Yeah, I don't agree.  I think there's a qualitative difference in a group operation from NATO vs one that Trump does and rationalizes himself.

And now you have changed your definition for a 3rd time and also falsely say Trump rationalized this by himself. The President is surrounded by his cabinet, advisors, and White House staff. You have zero evidence to sit here absurdly claiming that Trump just dreamt this all up on his own somehow ignoring and operating in isolation from his entire support structure. 

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. If you think that's a balk then fair enough.  I don't think it's worth it for us to discuss because the discussion won't lead anywhere.  You asked me to take Trump's explanation at face value, so that should tell you right off that we're not going anywhere with that.  It's simple: I don't trust him.  If you use that as evidence, it bodes poorly for a productive chat.

I don't merely think it is one, by objective standards it was one. I merely called it out. 

No, I did not ask you to take Trumps explination at face value at all. Why do you put words into my mouth? We are not going anywhere because that is by your design in these discussions. You don't want to as soon as you actually put something out that you think and it gets challenged, you start to do these things. 

What I offered was not "evidence" of anything, you wanted to know the reasons, I merely pointed you to them. I guess you would prefer I just make up stuff instead?

I mean, that is what many Trump haters do. 

[User]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

@User sorry I think I missed that your opinion is aligned with Trump on this so I have my answer on your opinion thanks.

What are you talking about now?

What opinion of mine is aligned with Trumps?

 

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, User said:

 

What opinion of mine is aligned with Trumps?

 

This from you: "You don't have to wonder, Trump said why. As to any further reasoning, I am not sure."

So ... you believe that it was about neutralizing a narcoterrorist threat.  I just missed any reason why the Honduras president was pardoned, and Rubio didn't explain it 

I'm not trying to aggravate you, and I'm barely following this story TBH.  But it doesn't add up to me.  If you have nothing to add then that's where we are I guess.  

Cheers... 

[John Stone]

Ever notice  how countries with no 'might' use the phrase, 'might ain't right' more regularly? 

The ability to project power has always determined the way of the World in the sense of literally creating countries,  redrawn borders,  subdued rebellions and strengthened geo-political alliances.  

Not much has been heard of the U.N. - suppose the GA has been  bought off. 

The proof of my comments will be confirmed when Trump wins the Nobel ............ and he will.  

If u don't have power then u better have allies. 

Edited January 5 by John Stone

[User]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

This from you: "You don't have to wonder, Trump said why. As to any further reasoning, I am not sure."

So ... you believe that it was about neutralizing a narcoterrorist threat.  I just missed any reason why the Honduras president was pardoned, and Rubio didn't explain it 

Yes, you asked why he pardoned the Hondorus President, and Trump explained why. Again, I also askedI if you needed me to go find that for you. Instead, you go off on this silly obfuscation game of yours... even now, you conflate my telling you an objective fact about if you want to know why, go see what Trump said, with my believing him about Maduro, which is not what we were even talking about nor my stating I believed it. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'm not trying to aggravate you, and I'm barely following this story TBH.  But it doesn't add up to me.  If you have nothing to add then that's where we are I guess.  

Oh, it is apparent you do not follow much of what is going on as I have to keep pointing these easily found public things out to you. 

I have been adding things this whole time... 

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, John Stone said:

haha..............so you're saying getting a Venezuelan dirt bag out of power thru the use of derring-do  didn't command and continues to command the news cycle? 

The distraction used by the Argentinians had the population out in the streets displaying manic patriotism. 

Political strategy crosses borders, culture and language

Putin's play in the Donets Basin is a replay of something that happened 70+ years ago - Sudetenland? 

...... that said it hasn't worked out the same way it did for Schicklgruber tho. 

 

No, I'm saying the Britain reclaiming the Falklands has nothing to do with the US invading a sovereign nation and killing 40 like in Venezuela.

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Yeah, I don't agree.  I think there's a qualitative difference in a group operation from NATO vs one that Trump does and rationalizes himself.
2. If you think that's a balk then fair enough.  I don't think it's worth it for us to discuss because the discussion won't lead anywhere.  You asked me to take Trump's explanation at face value, so that should tell you right off that we're not going anywhere with that.  It's simple: I don't trust him.  If you use that as evidence, it bodes poorly for a productive chat.

Only a FOOL trusts a pathological LIAR like LUser trusts Trump.

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, John Stone said:

Ever notice  how countries with no 'might' use the phrase, 'might ain't right' more regularly? 

The ability to project power has always determined the way of the World in the sense of literally creating countries,  redrawn borders,  subdued rebellions and strengthened geo-political alliances.  

Not much has been heard of the U.N. - suppose the GA has been  bought off. 

The proof of my comments will be confirmed when Trump wins the Nobel ............ and he will.  

If u don't have power then u better have allies. 

They don't give out Nobels for abducting a foreign leader and stealing a countries' oil.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

No, I explicitly said Article 51 permits self-defence  Not that Trump has any “self-defence” case here  

He absolutely has a self-defense case. That government is knowingly using his powers to assist in the importation of dangerous drugs that are killing people.

You really don't understand the law one little bit. You read something and interpret it the way that you wanted to be and assume that that's the way it is and it just doesn't work that way

Quote

1) I did not say everything he did was legal. I said the Venezuelan government expropriation of oil assets is legal

And which court ruled that?

Quote

. All governments,  including Republicans and Conservatives in USA and Canada, expropriate private assets for various purposes,

And if they signed a contract saying they had use of it from that gov't they have to pay compensation. Again, I don't think you understand how the law works

Quote

2) To the extent that he did commit crimes, AND HE MOST CERTAINLY DID COMMIT CRIMES these were crimes committed in Venezuelan jurisdiction under Venezuelan law

Nope. He has warrants for his arrest in America, for crimes committed against America. And he had those before trump. Even Biden increased the bounty on his head to 25 million for anyone that could help him be arrested for those crimes

Quote

I have not seen any indication of what crime he committed in the US.

Well do a little research. There are numerous drug charges etc

Asked to him getting off, great. Let him go to court let a judge say he didn't commit a crime
 

Quote

3) It’s possible and perhaps even likely that he was involved in international cocaine smuggling, some of which ended up in USA. But let’s be clear here:  cocaine doesn’t originate in Venezuela and Venezuela doesn’t deliver it to its final destination, they are just middlemen.

Let's be clear, if you are smuggling drugs into the united states you are a threat to the united states and regardless of where you got the drugs from or who you're giving them to that is true

If you eliminate the middleman and the drug stop, you've eliminated a threat

 

Quote

Yes but there’s nothing in the UN charter that says that entitles other countries to invade, kidnap the head of state or otherwise or conduct “regime change” at their sole discretion. 

The un charter has absolutely no actual legal authority over a country. And even if it did America has a veto with any specific case to be brought forward. There's no legal weight thereno country needs any permission from the UN. 
 

Quote

Not quite. It is widely believed that he and officials in his regime had connections with drug trafficking. That part you have right. However, the extent of the involvement and how much Maduro himself was personally involved in operations (as opposed to simply taking a cut) and how much cocaine ultimately ended up in USA is all purely speculative. 

No it's not speculative at all. The united states has a large body of evidence which they will present a trial. Is clear that his government used their influence to declare certain shipments and such as being government shipments when they were actually drugs in order to avoid scrutiny. There are other examples as well. But he'll get his day in court
 

Quote

This is highly dubious.The ever-expanding definition of “clear and present danger” to justify outrageous actions is tired authoritarian play

That's what people say when they know they're wrong but don't have a legitimate argument.

People are dying today. They are dying of the product that these people are illegally smuggling into the country. That is a clear and present danger by any saying definition and pretending that somehow having someone kill thousands and thousands of your people is not actually a present danger or that it's a tired authoritarian play is a joke. Get your head out of your ass and stop being a twat. This guy is directly responsible for the death of many thousands of Americans, he just uses drugs instead of aircraft like Bin Laden did

Quote

Furthermore cocaine is an expensive party drug that people consume voluntarily,

It causes the death of thousands and is illegal. if you

want to say it's not that bad of drug and Lobby for it to be made legal you go ahead. But right now today it isn't and it kills people. Oh and they ship a fair amount of Fentanyl and Fentanyl laced cocaine as well

"Hundreds of thousands die from drug overdoses annually in the U.S., with stimulants like cocaine contributing significantly, especially when mixed with fentanyl; in 2021, over 32,000 overdose deaths involved stimulants, and cocaine-involved overdose deaths are rising, though specific, recent, standalone cocaine death tolls vary, showing it's a complex, worsening crisis often linked to fentanyl. "

 

Quote

Possibly- but Bin Laden was not a head of state.

Neither was this guy. Most countries including Canada do not recognize him as a legitimate head of state

At the end of the day you cannot possibly rationally argue that illegal drugs are not killing Americans. Nor can you argue that the majority of countries saw this guy as being a legitimate head of state or that his government was legitimate. Nor can you suggest how this is significantly different than any of the other regime change or assassinations that have taken place in the past including Panama, Bin Laden, iraq, libya, etc etc

Sorry but this was 100% above board as far as such things go

[gatomontes99]

36 minutes ago, robosmith said:

They don't give out Nobels for abducting a foreign leader and stealing a countries' oil.

What about peace in the middle east? 

[CdnFox]

44 minutes ago, robosmith said:

They don't give out Nobels for abducting a foreign leader and stealing a countries' oil.

Sure they do. That's basically how Obama got one

[West]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yeah tobacco comes to mind. A quintessential gateway drug if there ever was one.

It's not just the nicotine that hooks kids...the real real kick is from the sense of illicitness that comes with smoking.

 

Just run away why don't you?

Ya but nicotine doesnt fry out your nervous system the same way as meth does 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Only a FOOL trusts a pathological LIAR like LUser trusts Trump.

Peter Zeihan summarizes...

 

[User]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Only a FOOL trusts a pathological LIAR like LUser trusts Trump.

Listen coward, if you want to talk about me, then be brave enough to do so to my face and engage and defend your stupid, ignorant, lies. 

[WestCanMan]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

The real narco-terrorists are consumers.

Do you even know where the word narco-terrorist comes from?

Pablo Escobar actually blew up a passenger jet in an attempt to kill a gov't official. He was murdering police all over the place. 

Maduro is jailing, beating and killing his own people. 

That's not to be confused with CrakHoBarbie getting her well-earned fix. 

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, West said:

Ya but nicotine doesnt fry out your nervous system the same way as meth does 

Meth doesn't turn your liver into pate the way alcohol does.

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Do you even know where the word narco-terrorist comes from?

The fervid imagination of right wing moral entrepreneurs.

[Legato]

8 hours ago, robosmith said:

Cocaine is NOT highly addictive "after the first couple of hits."

 

You sure about that, I mean, it would explain a lot.

[User]

15 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Meth doesn't turn your liver into pate the way alcohol does.

You are speaking from experience on both ends of that spectrum...

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, User said:

You are speaking from experience on both ends of that spectrum...

[BeaverFever]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

He absolutely has a self-defense case. That government is knowingly using his powers to assist in the importation of dangerous drugs that are killing people.

I’ve addressed the absolute bogusness of this claim in my previous post 

 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You really don't understand the law one little bit. You read something and interpret it the way that you wanted to be and assume that that's the way it is and it just doesn't work that way

LMAO. Once again it is YOU who don’t understand what you’re talking about and just parroting Trump’s dubious claims. Pretend all you want that what Trump did was a totally normal thing that happens all the time and everyone around the agrees with it but you’re not fooling anyone but yourself. There is NO LEGAL BASIS for claiming self defence Trump isn’t even making a serious attempt to argue it in any forum that matter. Meanwhile he says Greenland is next because “we need their minerals” and he’s not even pretending Greenland poses any threat which again shows how little he cares. 
 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And which court ruled that?

The expropriation was an act of Venezuelan law.  Ergo it is legal.   Don’t like it?  Wait until he’s out of power and hope the next regime will provide justice through the Venezuelan legal system. Or better yet, don’t invest in corrupt dictatorships to begin with.  But it’s always a matter for the Venezuelan legal system. There’s NO provision in international law where this somehow justifies another country to invade or carry out regime change. If you don’t understand the basic facts of international sovereignty then you really don’t know WTF you’re talking about. 
 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And if they signed a contract saying they had use of it from that gov't they have to pay compensation. Again, I don't think you understand how the law works

I understand perfectly. Once again YOU are the one without the knowledge 

1) They pay compensation but it’s often not the amount they the other party wants or feels is fair  

2) The companies sued in international courts and won multi-billion dollar awards.  Venezuela made some payments but struggled under US sanctions   US froze billions of Venezuelan assets in USA and the long legal process to liquidate those assets for oil companies and other creditors is ongoing.   You didn’t know any of that. 
 

3)

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Nope. He has warrants for his arrest in America, for crimes committed against America. And he had those before trump. Even Biden increased the bounty on his head to 25 million for anyone that could help him be arrested for those crimes

It was a warrant issued under Trump’s first term. This practice is not recognized in international law, especially against a head of state. The US can claim all it wants that it will arrest a head of state if they set foot on US soil but they’re not entitled to snatch that person from their own country. 
 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Let's be clear, if you are smuggling drugs into the united states you are a threat to the united states and regardless of where you got the drugs from or who you're giving them to that is true

If you eliminate the middleman and the drug stop, you've eliminated a threat

Stop pretending that crime is the same as a military attack amd a national security theme. And the reason drugs are smuggled into USA is because USA has WILLING BUYERS. By your logic the illegal guns that flood Canada from USA are a terrorist national security threat and we should abduct republicans and try them in our courts for their lax gun policies that are “attacking” our country. 
 

If your ridiculous arguments held any merit then practically every country would have permanent authority to attack every other country in the name of self defence since all countries have cross-border crime and smuggling of harmful substances. 
 

And ONCE AGAIN YOU IGNORE THE VIOLENT HONDURAN MAGA COCAINE KINGPIN TRUMP JUST PARDONED.  If cocaine smugglers was really such a grievous attack on USA why is this guy out after 1 year?  You can’t explain so you ignore. 
 

Cocaine flooded the US long before Maduro it’s absurd to suggest he somehow launched some “attack”. In fact Reagan and Bush Sr. helped create the American cocaine craze and the drug cartels when they flooded America with coke to fund their illegal Iran-Contra scheme. 
 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The un charter has absolutely no actual legal authority over a country. And even if it did America has a veto with any specific case to be brought forward. There's no legal weight thereno country needs any permission from the UN. 

Well this is is the whole “breakdown of the rules-based international order”  that Trump and Putin have been trying to accomplish. There IS a legal weight and countries DO need permission from the UN or they risk being sanctioned  Of course the US and Russia are nuclear superpowers so they know nobody is actually going to stop them and hold them accountable, so it’s “rules for thee but none for me”. 

The whole reason the US helped create the UN charter was to establish international law that would be enforced by the international community for example Korean War, Gulf War I (Desert Shield/Storm), Libya and others. When other countries violate the charter or act as Trump did, the US takes actions against them, citing intent law.

At least previous American regimes went through the motion of pretending the rules are important to them. Trump is the first president to publicly tell his people and the world that only losers follow the rules and everyone should just do whatever they’re strong enough to get away with and take whatever they can from whomever they’re strong enough to take it from. 

 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

That's what people say when they know they're wrong but don't have a legitimate argument.

People are dying today. They are dying of the product that these people are illegally smuggling into the country. That is a clear and present danger by any saying definition and pretending that somehow having someone kill thousands and thousands of your people is not actually a present danger or that it's a tired authoritarian play is a joke. Get your head out of your ass and stop being a twat. This guy is directly responsible for the death of many thousands of Americans, he just uses drugs instead of aircraft like Bin Laden did

LMAO that is a hilarious over-dramatized exaggeration. You obviously know nothing about cocaine. But then again I remember when you people were saying the same thing about marijuana. A century ago you people were saying it about alcohol, which BTW kills WAY more people, ruins WAY more lives and is WAY more addictive. It’s really ridiculous on so many levels it’s hard to know where to start and I don’t have the energy to repeat myself yet again. 
 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It causes the death of thousands and is illegal. if you

want to say it's not that bad of drug and Lobby for it to be made legal you go ahead. But right now today it isn't and it kills people.

1) On the list of things that kill Americans it is way down the list, well below guns which kill nearly twice as many Americans per year.  Cigarettes are more addictive and kill more people. If the definition of “clear and present danger”  is something that kills a lot of people then there is an infinite number of “clear and present dangers” in our everyday life and we have a permanent license to commit violence. 
 

2) Illicit substances have always been around and always will be. If the definition of  a “clear and present danger” that justifies military action is contraband that’s always been around and always will be around then there’s always an excuse for war. 
 

Aren’t you the one who said we can’t call climate change a “crisis” because it’s (in your judgment) slow-moving and only affects a small minority of the population at any given time?

 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Oh and they ship a fair amount of Fentanyl and Fentanyl laced cocaine as well

Baloney The fentanyl doesn’t come from Venezuela. That gets added by people in USA or in Mexico.

Can’t wait to hear you tell me about all the fentanyl coming from Greenland that Trump just had to stop!

 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

At the end of the day you cannot possibly rationally argue that illegal drugs are not killing Americans. Nor can you argue that the majority of countries saw this guy as being a legitimate head of state or that his government was legitimate. Nor can you suggest how this is significantly different than any of the other regime change or assassinations that have taken place in the past including Panama, Bin Laden, iraq, libya, etc etc

Sorry but this was 100% above board as far as such things go

False. 
 

Lots of things kill Americans and cocaine is self-administered and has been present in USA for decades. To suddenly argue that it is you are under attack no different than 9/11 or pearl harbour to justifies a military counterattack is beyond absurd. NOBODY has ever attempted to make that argument before and Trump is not even attempting to make a serious effort to make that argument in any forum that matters. 

PANAMA - Not internationally sanctioned but Bush Sr  had to arrest his #1 cocaine smuggling accomplice to clean up his mess after Iran Contra  HOWEVER he cited the fact that Americans in Panama were being attacked by Noriega’s thugs and that a US soldier was killed in the violence and the Panama Canal was threatened by the instability. Also the new head of panama “invited” the US to invade although US had already invaded at the time. US invoked Article 51 at UN although it was met with heavy skepticism. 
 

MAKE NO MISTAKE this was a violation of law and the UN voted to condemn it but USA vetoed it  USA got away with it because they are a superpower but thy PRETENDED to be within the law and they went through great efforts to make the argument, unlike Trump who simply claims international laws don’t or shouldn’t exist. THIS MATTERS   There is a difference between a leader who makes a big show of being law-abiding while being secretly corrupt and a leader who commits crimes in broad daylight and tells people “there should be no laws, take whatever you can from whomever you can, survival of the fittest”  

 

BIN LADEN - a non-state terrorist at war with US and a series of terror attacks, GWOT was internationally recognized as an armed conflict and self defence   USA officially invoked Article 51 of UN Charter claiming self-defence, unlike Trump

IRAQ:  First Gulf War, Iraq invaded Kuwait and the UN invoked several resolutions against Iraq including UN Chapter VIi authorizing use of force against Iraq  THIS IS INTERNATIONAL LAW ACTUALLY WORKING 

Second Gulf War - George W Bush fabricated evidence of WMD which they claimed invalidated the peace deal that ended the first gulf war and therefore the earlier authorized use of force against Iraq was still valid   They also formally invoked Article 51, false claiming Al-Qaeda links  Like Panama they could only get away with it because they were a superpower but again keeping up the appearance matters  

 

LIBYA:  UN officially sanctioned use of force under Chapter VII

 

SO LITERALLY ALL OF THOSE ARE DIFFERENT FROM TRUMP’S OIL GRAB  

 

 

 

 

[CdnFox]

Do you believe this?  Lefties are so screwed up over this that they're trying to get the actual soldiers who carried it out hurt!

 

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So ... you believe that it was about neutralizing a narcoterrorist threat.  I just missed any reason why the Honduras president was pardoned, and Rubio didn't explain it 

It probably needs to be said Juan Orlando Hernandez is a conservative...

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

I’ve addressed the absolute bogusness of this claim in my previous post 

 

LMAO. Once again it is YOU who don’t understand what you’re talking about and just parroting Trump’s dubious claims. Pretend all you want that what Trump did was a totally normal thing that happens all the time and everyone around the agrees with it but you’re not fooling anyone but yourself. There is NO LEGAL BASIS for claiming self defence Trump isn’t even making a serious attempt to argue it in any forum that matter. Meanwhile he says Greenland is next because “we need their minerals” and he’s not even pretending Greenland poses any threat which again shows how little he cares. 
 

The expropriation was an act of Venezuelan law.  Ergo it is legal.   Don’t like it?  Wait until he’s out of power and hope the next regime will provide justice through the Venezuelan legal system. Or better yet, don’t invest in corrupt dictatorships to begin with.  But it’s always a matter for the Venezuelan legal system. There’s NO provision in international law where this somehow justifies another country to invade or carry out regime change. If you don’t understand the basic facts of international sovereignty then you really don’t know WTF you’re talking about. 
 

I understand perfectly. Once again YOU are the one without the knowledge 

1) They pay compensation but it’s often not the amount they the other party wants or feels is fair  

2) The companies sued in international courts and won multi-billion dollar awards.  Venezuela made some payments but struggled under US sanctions   US froze billions of Venezuelan assets in USA and the long legal process to liquidate those assets for oil companies and other creditors is ongoing.   You didn’t know any of that. 
 

3)

It was a warrant issued under Trump’s first term. This practice is not recognized in international law, especially against a head of state. The US can claim all it wants that it will arrest a head of state if they set foot on US soil but they’re not entitled to snatch that person from their own country. 
 

Stop pretending that crime is the same as a military attack amd a national security theme. And the reason drugs are smuggled into USA is because USA has WILLING BUYERS. By your logic the illegal guns that flood Canada from USA are a terrorist national security threat and we should abduct republicans and try them in our courts for their lax gun policies that are “attacking” our country. 
 

If your ridiculous arguments held any merit then practically every country would have permanent authority to attack every other country in the name of self defence since all countries have cross-border crime and smuggling of harmful substances. 
 

And ONCE AGAIN YOU IGNORE THE VIOLENT HONDURAN MAGA COCAINE KINGPIN TRUMP JUST PARDONED.  If cocaine smugglers was really such a grievous attack on USA why is this guy out after 1 year?  You can’t explain so you ignore. 
 

Cocaine flooded the US long before Maduro it’s absurd to suggest he somehow launched some “attack”. In fact Reagan and Bush Sr. helped create the American cocaine craze and the drug cartels when they flooded America with coke to fund their illegal Iran-Contra scheme. 
 

Well this is is the whole “breakdown of the rules-based international order”  that Trump and Putin have been trying to accomplish. There IS a legal weight and countries DO need permission from the UN or they risk being sanctioned  Of course the US and Russia are nuclear superpowers so they know nobody is actually going to stop them and hold them accountable, so it’s “rules for thee but none for me”. 

The whole reason the US helped create the UN charter was to establish international law that would be enforced by the international community for example Korean War, Gulf War I (Desert Shield/Storm), Libya and others. When other countries violate the charter or act as Trump did, the US takes actions against them, citing intent law.

At least previous American regimes went through the motion of pretending the rules are important to them. Trump is the first president to publicly tell his people and the world that only losers follow the rules and everyone should just do whatever they’re strong enough to get away with and take whatever they can from whomever they’re strong enough to take it from. 

 

LMAO that is a hilarious over-dramatized exaggeration. You obviously know nothing about cocaine. But then again I remember when you people were saying the same thing about marijuana. A century ago you people were saying it about alcohol, which BTW kills WAY more people, ruins WAY more lives and is WAY more addictive. It’s really ridiculous on so many levels it’s hard to know where to start and I don’t have the energy to repeat myself yet again. 
 

1) On the list of things that kill Americans it is way down the list, well below guns which kill nearly twice as many Americans per year.  Cigarettes are more addictive and kill more people. If the definition of “clear and present danger”  is something that kills a lot of people then there is an infinite number of “clear and present dangers” in our everyday life and we have a permanent license to commit violence. 
 

2) Illicit substances have always been around and always will be. If the definition of  a “clear and present danger” that justifies military action is contraband that’s always been around and always will be around then there’s always an excuse for war. 
 

Aren’t you the one who said we can’t call climate change a “crisis” because it’s (in your judgment) slow-moving and only affects a small minority of the population at any given time?

 

Baloney The fentanyl doesn’t come from Venezuela. That gets added by people in USA or in Mexico.

Can’t wait to hear you tell me about all the fentanyl coming from Greenland that Trump just had to stop!

 

False. 
 

Lots of things kill Americans and cocaine is self-administered and has been present in USA for decades. To suddenly argue that it is you are under attack no different than 9/11 or pearl harbour to justifies a military counterattack is beyond absurd. NOBODY has ever attempted to make that argument before and Trump is not even attempting to make a serious effort to make that argument in any forum that matters. 

PANAMA - Not internationally sanctioned but Bush Sr  had to arrest his #1 cocaine smuggling accomplice to clean up his mess after Iran Contra  HOWEVER he cited the fact that Americans in Panama were being attacked by Noriega’s thugs and that a US soldier was killed in the violence and the Panama Canal was threatened by the instability. Also the new head of panama “invited” the US to invade although US had already invaded at the time. US invoked Article 51 at UN although it was met with heavy skepticism. 
 

MAKE NO MISTAKE this was a violation of law and the UN voted to condemn it but USA vetoed it  USA got away with it because they are a superpower but thy PRETENDED to be within the law and they went through great efforts to make the argument, unlike Trump who simply claims international laws don’t or shouldn’t exist. THIS MATTERS   There is a difference between a leader who makes a big show of being law-abiding while being secretly corrupt and a leader who commits crimes in broad daylight and tells people “there should be no laws, take whatever you can from whomever you can, survival of the fittest”  

 

BIN LADEN - a non-state terrorist at war with US and a series of terror attacks, GWOT was internationally recognized as an armed conflict and self defence   USA officially invoked Article 51 of UN Charter claiming self-defence, unlike Trump

IRAQ:  First Gulf War, Iraq invaded Kuwait and the UN invoked several resolutions against Iraq including UN Chapter VIi authorizing use of force against Iraq  THIS IS INTERNATIONAL LAW ACTUALLY WORKING 

Second Gulf War - George W Bush fabricated evidence of WMD which they claimed invalidated the peace deal that ended the first gulf war and therefore the earlier authorized use of force against Iraq was still valid   They also formally invoked Article 51, false claiming Al-Qaeda links  Like Panama they could only get away with it because they were a superpower but again keeping up the appearance matters  

 

LIBYA:  UN officially sanctioned use of force under Chapter VII

 

SO LITERALLY ALL OF THOSE ARE DIFFERENT FROM TRUMP’S OIL GRAB  

 

 

 

 

I can always tell when you know you're wrong you try and make your post as long as humanly possible with absolute garbage   

No you completely failed to address the fact that the drugs are a threat. Just simply saying you don't think they are is not in any way shape or form addressing it. Hundreds of thousands of Americans die from drug overdoses from the exact drugs these guys are bringing in that is a direct threat and This guy was 100% involved with it

As I have pointed out trump did a totally normal thing that happens all the time and the history of it is there. Noriega iraq afghanistan iran lydia bin Laden

As much as you want to pretend these are all different they're exactly the same. In fact with some of them they had less pretext to get involved than they do here

Lying about it won't change the facts

And if another country is engineering the deaths of your citizens whether it's by machine gun or poisonous substance it really makes no difference.

Expropriation was illegal. You can't illegally take over the government and then claim that the actions of that government are legal. That should be obvious even to you

And absolutely fentanyl comes from Venezuela. It's not a primary source but if you mix it in with the cocaine people love it but it kills.

Quit trying to pretend that cocaine is legal and safe

It is the most tarded argument in the world that cocaine is self-administered therefore the suppliers are innocent.

You would  honestly have us lock up the users and let the dealers go free? That's literally your argument do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

Like it or not Bin Laden was a political figure and not just some guy. Same as Maduro who wasn't president, And who was also recognized globally as a narco terrorist. America has taken out generals and politicians of other countries plenty of times. 

As to the Iraq Wars it really doesn't matter why they went, the bottom line is they're both examples where the government decided to overthrow another government which hadn't attacked them directly.

You try and dance around the truth but it all comes back to the same thing. This thing has been standard in American history for years and not just America

If somebody's shipping illegal drugs into your country with the stated purpose by the way of doing harm to your country and you cannot stop him any other way then you may very well take the actions necessary to bring him to justice or put him before god

 

Your entire arguments boil down to orange man bad. Can't explain how obama was justified doing exactly the same things but trump isn't.

[eyeball]

11 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I can always tell when you know you're wrong you try and make your post as long as humanly possible with absolute garbage   

Your entire arguments boil down to orange man bad. Can't explain how obama was justified doing exactly the same things but trump isn't.

And it only took you a boiler as big as a garbage truck to say so.

You must be getting better at this.