suds Posted December 14, 2024 Report Posted December 14, 2024 10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: 3. If you define 'Freedom' as being a cultural space where a body of public figures criticize and taunt trans people and are cheered on, then maybe. If you want to get an education and improve yourself from poverty, if you want to have a baby without paying out of pocket, if you want walk around your city and not get mugged... maybe not so much. I'm just saying that "Freedom" is a philosophical concept and a personal parameter that allows people to climb Maslow's hierarchy of needs, not simply the right to mouth off. And as for the second matter, I'm pretty sure you can get in the same trouble in the US as in Canada in certain quarters. From what you've written here, you don't have a clue what freedom actually is. To put it simply, freedom is the state of not being subject to coercion by the arbitrary will of others. Did Peterson break any laws? Not that I know of. Is there such a thing as the right to not be offended? I don't think so either. I'd say it's a little more than some philosophical concept. 1 Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 14, 2024 Report Posted December 14, 2024 59 minutes ago, suds said: From what you've written here, you don't have a clue what freedom actually is. To put it simply, freedom is the state of not being subject to coercion by the arbitrary will of others. Did Peterson break any laws? Not that I know of. Is there such a thing as the right to not be offended? I don't think so either. I'd say it's a little more than some philosophical concept. I guess that's one definition Peterson didn't break any laws, but he wasn't subject to some arbitrary coercion by the state. Coercion by others? That's a pretty cloudy definition. . Not much better than the right to not be offended I guess I would say freedom is about what you're permitted to do or not do by the state, and the culture that you live in. Maybe. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
User Posted December 14, 2024 Report Posted December 14, 2024 9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Peterson didn't break any laws, but he wasn't subject to some arbitrary coercion by the state. Arbitrary is a qualifier doing a lot of heavy lifting for you here. All to avoid the fact that he was being subjected to some garbage license revoking threats because of his tweets and being forced to go through training as well. 13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Coercion by others? That's a pretty cloudy definition. . Yes, outright coercion by his professional licensing organization that has that power from the state. 1 Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
eyeball Posted December 14, 2024 Report Posted December 14, 2024 22 minutes ago, User said: Yes, outright coercion by his professional licensing organization that has that power from the state. Are licencing organizations in the US empowered with the same responsibility by your government's or are licences issued by state/federal governments directly? Does one licence fit all so Peterson will be able to ply his trade anywhere he wishes? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
User Posted December 14, 2024 Report Posted December 14, 2024 10 minutes ago, eyeball said: Are licencing organizations in the US empowered with the same responsibility by your government's or are licences issued by state/federal governments directly? No, they are not empowered to violate people's 1st Amendment rights. We have a powerful Constitutional protection here for freedom of speech. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
eyeball Posted December 14, 2024 Report Posted December 14, 2024 20 minutes ago, User said: No, they are not empowered to violate people's 1st Amendment rights. We have a powerful Constitutional protection here for freedom of speech. Sure, for protecting you from a government's restriction of that freedom but what about a professional association's restriction, especially if you agreed to any restrictions when you become an association member? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
User Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 Just now, eyeball said: Sure, for protecting you from a government's restriction of that freedom but what about a professional association's restriction, especially when you agreed to those standards when you become an association member? I just answered your question. Jordan Peterson calling politicians names on Twitter or not referring to people by their preferred names or pronouns on Twitter impacts his ability to practice within his profession how? Nothing. 1 Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
Army Guy Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 21 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: Trump plans to pull America out of NATO. Why would you care is my question? i mean you live in a nation that refuses to pay the price to be in the club...then whine when the US threatens to make people pay they're share......If i was America and paying most of the bills i'd be pi$$ed as well...why can't canada pay for their own defence....because we are to lazy, we love our social programs to much, becasue Canadians need the government to do everything for them... well the US is tired of carry your fat a$$, it's time for you to start to walk on your own... 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
NAME REMOVED Posted December 15, 2024 Author Report Posted December 15, 2024 4 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Why would you care is my question? i mean you live in a nation that refuses to pay the price to be in the club...then whine when the US threatens to make people pay they're share......If i was America and paying most of the bills i'd be pi$$ed as well...why can't canada pay for their own defence....because we are to lazy, we love our social programs to much, becasue Canadians need the government to do everything for them... well the US is tired of carry your fat a$$, it's time for you to start to walk on your own... You are the biggest traitor to Canada that I have ever come across. Even when we are attacked on social media by the President-elect, you shamelessly side with America over your own country. Quote
User Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 1 minute ago, DUI_Offender said: You are the biggest traitor to Canada that I have ever come across. Even when we are attacked on social media by the President-elect, you shamelessly side with America over your own country. He is here advocating for Canada to pay their share for the combined defense of NATO. And you are advocating... they shouldn't and just freeload off America? Sounds like you are the traitor who would rather see your own country defenseless. 1 Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
Army Guy Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 7 minutes ago, eyeball said: Sure, for protecting you from a government's restriction of that freedom but what about a professional association's restriction, especially if you agreed to any restrictions when you become an association member? Government restricts those rights and freedoms all the time...they don't need much excuse to do so....when joining certain Federal government departments they restrict basic freedoms all the time....like vaccination status, get vaccinated or find another job...freedom of speech a member of the federal government civil service sector like military or RCMP etc... is not free to talk to the public when they want on what they want......contacting them without approval and you'll be looking for another job, or legal action... Canada has basic rights, but they are not as enshrined as they are in the states... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 15 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: You are the biggest traitor to Canada that I have ever come across. Even when we are attacked on social media by the President-elect, you shamelessly side with America over your own country. "Attacked" your such a snowflake... i mean really, your leader made stupid comments on global media and now he is getting a response.....which roughly translated play stupid games and find the F*ck out....all justin had to do was say yes mr president we will work on fixing our borders....and put some funding towards that....i mean we are after all responsible for our own security right.... thats not a question but a statement of fact... And hey my loyalty/ service to this nation is all paid up in spades mr magoo, 3 tours in Afghanistan, 2 tours of bosnia, 1 in Rwanda, one in Sinai desert....In my own mind i've earned the right to be vocal.....what is it you did again....right voted for justin....and your proudest moment was getting a DUI...You sir have not earned squat... your opinion is worth as much as my sons pet gopher...which is not a lot... So yes in this case and others i did decide to side with the US, I know in your mind something exploded "thats is not the liberal message".....your a traitor, i'm going to lay down and kick my feet now like a snow flake for a lack of a better descriptive word..... becasue what they have said is true.... we as a nation have been slack on defending this country, be it our borders from criminal activity, or our defensive agreements such as NATO, NORAD, 5 EYES. our own CBSA has said so on open media....every NATO allied has said so in NATO NORAD....this is a global opinion not just mine Canadians are slackers in this global responsibility.....are they traitors.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 39 minutes ago, User said: I just answered your question. Jordan Peterson calling politicians names on Twitter or not referring to people by their preferred names or pronouns on Twitter impacts his ability to practice within his profession how? Nothing. I'd say it probably impacts his profession in the same manner my employer was concerned about when I agreed to his conditions regarding my personal conduct in the community, including things I might say. I'm betting JP signed a binding agreement similar to the one I did - a signed agreement our courts upheld. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
User Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 3 minutes ago, eyeball said: I'd say it probably impacts his profession in the same manner my employer was concerned about when I agreed to his conditions regarding my personal conduct in the community, including things I might say. I'm betting JP signed a binding agreement similar to the one I did - a signed agreement our courts upheld. Your employer is not the government. There is a world of difference between being forced to do something by the government and engaging in a mutually beneficial contract willingly with another private party. The government controls the license process, Peterson has no alternatives in order to practice. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
eyeball Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 32 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Government restricts those rights and freedoms all the time...they don't need much excuse to do so....when joining certain Federal government departments they restrict basic freedoms all the time....like vaccination status, get vaccinated or find another job...freedom of speech a member of the federal government civil service sector like military or RCMP etc... is not free to talk to the public when they want on what they want......contacting them without approval and you'll be looking for another job, or legal action... Canada has basic rights, but they are not as enshrined as they are in the states... I suspect they are in some cases but they're more subject to the whims of the prevailing political winds. Which are currently blowing in JP's direction according to his reckoning apparently. I doubt any higher ranking publicly noticeable US soldier would be free to shoot their mouth off in support for China's designs on Taiwan or Russia's in Ukraine for very long. Notwithstanding under Trump of course in which case they'd probably be encouraged. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Army Guy Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 3 minutes ago, eyeball said: I suspect they are in some cases but they're more subject to the whims of the prevailing political winds. Which are currently blowing in JP's direction according to his reckoning apparently. I doubt any higher ranking publicly noticeable US soldier would be free to shoot their mouth off in support for China's designs on Taiwan or Russia's in Ukraine for very long. Notwithstanding under Trump of course in which case they'd probably be encouraged. I was pointing out that in Canada there are lots of Canadians that do nOT have full access to those right s written in our constitution...and not just freedom of speech, most of them are restricted...One can not compare our constitution with the US they are not comparable, one is enshrined in law the other is up to the government whim. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 7 minutes ago, User said: Your employer is not the government. Neither is Peterson's professional association. And too be sure, my employer is required to maintain certain standards with government agencies that certify me. If I thought someone in my profession did something unprofessional or even dangerous I'm quite certain I'd be called to the mat if I beaked off about it or the people who certified them on local social media. 13 minutes ago, User said: There is a world of difference between being forced to do something by the government and engaging in a mutually beneficial contract willingly with another private party. Except he's not being forced by a government. He was forced by an association according to conditions he agreed too. 14 minutes ago, User said: The government controls the license process, Peterson has no alternatives in order to practice. He's free to choose another occupation. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
User Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 1 minute ago, eyeball said: Neither is Peterson's professional association. They are empowered by the government. You are just playing dumb games now. Peterson can't practice without the license... because of the government and they give that power to the professional organization. 1 Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
eyeball Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 4 minutes ago, Army Guy said: I was pointing out that in Canada there are lots of Canadians that do nOT have full access to those right s written in our constitution...and not just freedom of speech, most of them are restricted... And I bet in virtually every case these Canadians knew that and agreed to it when they chose certain employers with these conditions. 5 minutes ago, Army Guy said: One can not compare our constitution with the US they are not comparable, one is enshrined in law the other is up to the government whim. Maybe Peterson will get a chance to test that Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 2 minutes ago, User said: They are empowered by the government. You are just playing dumb games now. I'm pretty sure governments know what the conditions the organizations have in place are for the licences they're giving them authority over. 4 minutes ago, User said: Peterson can't practice without the license... because of the government and they give that power to the professional organization. Peterson knew this when he went into the profession. Like I said, he always was and still is free to choose another. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 36 minutes ago, Army Guy said: .One can not compare our constitution with the US they are not comparable, one is enshrined in law the other is up to the government whim. Of course they're comparable. In both cases they're subject to amendments. Not easily of course, but to say either are free of political winds when they are subject to lawmakers whims completely misses the fact that's why they're so difficult to change. 1 Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
CdnFox Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 6 hours ago, eyeball said: Sure they do, but I guess it's still a little politically incorrect to embrace how much death was required to ensure the old liberty tree didn't die as well. It was a heroic sacrifice don't you think? The voices in your head do not count as "they". Sorry. Quote How many more Canadian deaths would saving a few Bouncy Castles be worth? I suppose your argument is that if we remove everybody's rights and freedoms that somehow this will save lives? That's a pretty stupid argument. Anybody was able to take the vaccine, and the whole point of vaccine was to be able to prevent serious illness if you did get covid. I mean millions of people got covid even after they were immunized, bouncy castles or no. So the real question is why do you hate the idea of people having rights and freedoms? Is it because you can't bring about your woke Utopia if people still have choice? Ask those voices in your head and get back to me, you seem to rely on their opinion quite a bit. Quote
suds Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 2 hours ago, eyeball said: Sure, for protecting you from a government's restriction of that freedom but what about a professional association's restriction, especially if you agreed to any restrictions when you become an association member? Two of Canada's main civil liberties groups the CCLA and the CCF both claim that professional regulators are subject to the Charter (as they should be). They also claim that in Peterson's case there was regulatory overreach especially in demanding Peterson take a re-education program (at his own expense) that had nothing to do with his profession. So, I'm just assuming things but I would assume that the Charter be the big Bible in this case, and whatever restrictions the regulators scribbled down would be the little Bible. Or what's the point in having a Charter? I realize that no two cases are the same but this sure sounds like regulatory overreach to me. Someone at the CCF even suggested that maybe the regulators should be re-educated (at their own expense) in a course on fundamental freedoms. Yeah, that might work eh? 1 Quote
suds Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: Government restricts those rights and freedoms all the time...they don't need much excuse to do so....when joining certain Federal government departments they restrict basic freedoms all the time....like vaccination status, get vaccinated or find another job...freedom of speech a member of the federal government civil service sector like military or RCMP etc... is not free to talk to the public when they want on what they want......contacting them without approval and you'll be looking for another job, or legal action... Canada has basic rights, but they are not as enshrined as they are in the states... I agree and in certain circumstances such as national security and law enforcement it makes perfect sense. It's why all rights are not absolute. But the Peterson thing makes no sense. Quote
eyeball Posted December 15, 2024 Report Posted December 15, 2024 2 hours ago, suds said: I realize that no two cases are the same but this sure sounds like regulatory overreach to me. Someone at the CCF even suggested that maybe the regulators should be re-educated (at their own expense) in a course on fundamental freedoms. Yeah, that might work eh? Or something like that. It all sounds a little over the top alright and it might have been one of those times when the main protagonists should have been locked in a room until they found a compromise - where access to food and services could be withheld to spur on a settlement of issues. As I understand it the course material for his reeducation still hadn't been developed nor had a teacher been appointed to teach it, like the College of Psychiatry was hoping he'd cave before they'd have to lower themselves to such a demeaning task. I thought Peterson should have called their bluff until either the court or the government forced them to put up or shut up. I guess the College's tactic worked. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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