Venandi Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Wow. The rhetoric of this is thick as a deep fog. Incredible. Can't help ya with that but I'd say it's time to "go hard or go home." I think we're at a point where things either get better or they get progressively worse; it will be voters who decide and they have (IMO again) a 4-5 year window to do so. Pressures on eh? Four years from now I expect to see a line on the WAC chart labeled PNR. Venture beyond that and for good or ill you (we and us) will be all in with the decision made, fully invested in outcomes we no longer have (much) control over. In terms of "selection and maintenance of the aim" the time to make a decision is now, there's still time to get it right but, as with all things examined in hindsight, it will require compromise, compassion and good headwork at a time when all three are in short supply. Not sure what else to say, folks can either read about it or visit warm places who got it wrong.... I'd pack a blue hat. Cheers Edited November 9, 2024 by Venandi Quote
myata Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, Venandi said: Maybe we're just creating a see-saw effect that encourages both ends of the fulcrum to become increasingly volatile over time, with all of the polarization and partisan media rhetoric (meaning lies) that goes with it. Making people fearful of an election result that goes against them is a recipe for violence... the US founding fathers would have called it "an inducement to war." Abstractions won't change much here, in this particular and specific case. Was it just another election? Should mafia bosses, gang leaders, corrupt cult gurus become regular and common presidential candidates to avoid the law and gain power? "Find me those votes, quick!" a normal, should we call it madurian election strategy? Should it be the normal practice for leaders of democracies (the claim for moral leadership of the free world is past now, obviously) to praise and cower to the worse dictator scum of the planet? What isn't fact here? Where are exaggerations? What political environment will (not would, note) this precedent create, for the observable perspective? Is it worse to let people know what they are dealing with? These are very real, practical questions that (can) will have real and objective consequences. Nothing is abstract here. What are the answers, where? Should we just pretend they don't exist, right until the next time? Can we? No concerns here. The reality can never be wrong. And it is important that whatever people chose they knew what it was. If only for the record in history. There were many bells and warnings that this direction is risky and dangerous. And evolution has zero regard for laziness, weakness and excuses. Edited November 9, 2024 by myata Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Nationalist Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 47 minutes ago, Venandi said: Can't help ya with that but I'd say it's time to "go hard or go home." I think we're at a point where things either get better or they get progressively worse; it will be voters who decide and they have (IMO again) a 4-5 year window to do so. Pressures on eh? Four years from now I expect to see a line on the WAC chart labeled PNR. Venture beyond that and for good or ill you (we and us) will be all in with the decision made, fully invested in outcomes we no longer have (much) control over. In terms of "selection and maintenance of the aim" the time to make a decision is now, there's still time to get it right but, as with all things examined in hindsight, it will require compromise, compassion and good headwork at a time when all three are in short supply. Not sure what else to say, folks can either read about it or visit warm places who got it wrong.... I'd pack a blue hat. Cheers It is a pivotal time indeed. Here's the problem as I see it. 2 years ago we all emerged from a "global pandemic". 2 or 3 years ago, we needed to be doing everything we could to drag the economy back from the mass shutdowns. But we did not. Instead, we fck-a55ed around with racial chickensh1t and denying our cheap energy supply and infrastructure, thus driving the cost of everything up to damaging levels. These were the acts of id1ots. Pompous a55es. Chrystia Freeland and Pixie-Dust have been abject failures. And that's really just the bottom line. 1 Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
robosmith Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 4 hours ago, Five of swords said: No, that is not true. You claiming ^this does not make your claim true. ^Debate LOST. Quote
CdnFox Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 5 hours ago, myata said: The assumption of voter's democracy is entirely wrong: factually. Italy elected fascists. That is still democracy, stupid Democracy doesn't stop being democracy just because you don't like who wins. They have a popular thing in Europe right now called democratic socialism. Traditionally socialism and democracy don't go well together yet it exists. So basically you only allow democracy as long as the results are to your liking. That would mean that the oppressive dictator here would be you. Quote
robosmith Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 (edited) 4 hours ago, Five of swords said: Why couldn't a fascist define fascism? Mussolini defined FASCISM by HIS VIOLENT ACTIONS in eliminating his opposition. “The Doctrine of Fascism” (1932) by Benito Mussolini San Jose State University https://sjsu.edu › faculty › wooda › Readings › Th... PDF by B Mussolini · Cited by 38 — Fascism is now clearly defined not only as a regime but as a doctrine. This means that Fascism, exercising its critical faculties on itself and on others ... 10 pages Definitions of fascism Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Definitions_of_fascism What constitutes a definition of fascism and fascist governments has been a complicated and highly disputed subject concerning the exact nature of fascism ... By encyclopedias and... · By fascists · By scholars · By Marxists Benito Mussolini: What is Fascism (1932) Vancouver Island University https://web.viu.ca › davies › Mussolini.WhatIsFascism.19... Fascism is the doctrine best adapted to represent the tendencies and the aspirations of a people, like the people of Italy, who are rising again after many ... Edited November 9, 2024 by robosmith Quote
CdnFox Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 22 minutes ago, Nationalist said: It is a pivotal time indeed. Here's the problem as I see it. 2 years ago we all emerged from a "global pandemic". 2 or 3 years ago, we needed to be doing everything we could to drag the economy back from the mass shutdowns. But we did not. Instead, we fck-a55ed around with racial chickensh1t and denying our cheap energy supply and infrastructure, thus driving the cost of everything up to damaging levels. These were the acts of id1ots. Pompous a55es. Chrystia Freeland and Pixie-Dust have been abject failures. And that's really just the bottom line. I think the issue you're bringing up is independent of covid though. Covid left an awful lot of pent-up market energy it was Unleashed as soon as we went back to normal. If there's any critique there it would be that they didn't go back to normal soon enough and that they didn't do it in a "Rip the band-Aid off" Way, they did it in bits and pieces haphazardly with no real thought. The energy stuff is absolutely true but I think it's absolutely true weather covid happened or not. Our economy is showing great signs of weakness instead of leaning into our strengths and seeking business investment we chose to shut down the one industry we have traditionally relied on precarious through such times before we had transitioned to a new one. Weather covid had happened or not that's going to be death. And I see that they are looking to do it again. Quote
NAME REMOVED Posted November 9, 2024 Author Report Posted November 9, 2024 2 hours ago, Nationalist said: Wow. The rhetoric of this is thick as a deep fog. Incredible. You have always been in support of fascist leaders. 1 Quote
robosmith Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 7 hours ago, Venandi said: The form it takes and the camouflage it wears is infinitely variable. Because of that, I tend to look closer at the conduct (words, actions, perceived intent etc) of those who insist on invoking over the top Hitler references. For sensible people, especially those who have actually seen, smelled, or experienced the sort of atrocities the name suggests, invoking it in a "white boy Rick" manner utterly fails to resonate. It might be gobbled up by the Herbs and Dogs of the world but that's about it. People in need, those with real pain and real problems sway to more practical concerns and their observations are a result of experience... like this for instance. I can't speak to the voracity of the story, its extent or direct effects, but if true, it's the sort of thing that will burn in the memory of those effected. It's not how you earn votes, win elections or sway opinions... it's how you lose on all three fronts. It's how you brand an entire group with the actions of a few extremists and it's why people will rightly question your willingness to embrace these activists and reluctance to cast them adrift in their own dingy. I'm actually heartened to see that US Democrats seem to attribute their "surprise" loss to "failure to effectively communicate with voters." Hopefully they will concentrate on the packaging, add a few rainbows to the plastic tub that contains their values, and continue to invoke the name of long dead tyrants for many years to come. The simple stated FACT is Hitler followed a path to power which included the destruction of German democracy. Mussolini defined that as a principle of FASCISM. Trump is on Hitler's early path, and as such has not yet consolidated absolute power, but is still learning how. As stated, continuing on that path is not guaranteed for Trump, nor is his successful achievement of attaining absolute power. Quote
myata Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 How much worse can they get before they are really bad and very much, irreversible? Can one admire someone like Putin or Kim, true modern fascists and totalitarian tyrants and stand to them at the same time? This is the split personality disorder, can't you see? It's psychotic a serious condition calls for immediate treatment. And this is the state of America's public as of today, the current diagnosis, no exaggerations. So how much worse should it be allowed to get, for the citizens to notice? Well, this is the reality. And the path will unfold from here dreams and wishes books about glorious past matter not one bit. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
myata Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 (edited) 45 minutes ago, robosmith said: As stated, continuing on that path is not guaranteed for Trump, nor is his successful achievement of attaining absolute power Before absolute comes "unchecked". That could be a more immediate concern. So what would be an objective assessment of that given that one of the two principal political institutions has essentially folded to an authoritarian personality cult with very little room for independent opinion and positions left? The party can become an integral part of the cult, just like Hitlers and this is a very real, present possibility. Then it's down to individuals, and those who tried to stand can be removed one by one we have seen it. These are no exaggerations. America has not become a fascist state yet, but it's pondering and preparing itself to embrace it. Think about it now. All the bells have rung and all the signs are there. Edited November 9, 2024 by myata Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Five of swords Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 1 hour ago, robosmith said: Mussolini defined FASCISM by HIS VIOLENT ACTIONS in eliminating his opposition. “The Doctrine of Fascism” (1932) by Benito Mussolini San Jose State University https://sjsu.edu › faculty › wooda › Readings › Th... PDF by B Mussolini · Cited by 38 — Fascism is now clearly defined not only as a regime but as a doctrine. This means that Fascism, exercising its critical faculties on itself and on others ... 10 pages Definitions of fascism Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Definitions_of_fascism What constitutes a definition of fascism and fascist governments has been a complicated and highly disputed subject concerning the exact nature of fascism ... By encyclopedias and... · By fascists · By scholars · By Marxists Benito Mussolini: What is Fascism (1932) Vancouver Island University https://web.viu.ca › davies › Mussolini.WhatIsFascism.19... Fascism is the doctrine best adapted to represent the tendencies and the aspirations of a people, like the people of Italy, who are rising again after many ... Giovanni gentile actually wrote the doctrine of fascism and it says nothing about eliminating the opposition. Perhaps you should read it Quote
robosmith Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 17 minutes ago, Five of swords said: Giovanni gentile actually wrote the doctrine of fascism and it says nothing about eliminating the opposition. Perhaps you should read it It clearly says in "What is Fascism" by Mussolini: Quote Fascism denies, in democracy, the absurd conventional untruth of political equality dressed out in the garb of collective irresponsibility, and the myth of "happiness" and indefinite progress.... AKA, dictatorship NOT democracy. That means NO OPPOSITION ALLOWED. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 18 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: This is why Trump won the election. Most Americans have no idea how tariffs work. No, they think economics are kind like the weather in control of the Rainmaker. Trump's success in the first term was in deficit spending. That's not going to work forever, and when it fails we'll see some awful proposals to fix things. 1 Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Five of swords Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 34 minutes ago, robosmith said: It clearly says in "What is Fascism" by Mussolini: AKA, dictatorship NOT democracy. That means NO OPPOSITION ALLOWED. It was gentile who wrote the book. Mussolini was just the visible leader of the movement, so it was pretended he had a hand in it. But ge tile was obviously the intellectual who did all the writing and thinking. The fact you don't know that is funny. If you had actually read the book, by the way, you would know how absurd your current claims actually are. For sure gentile rejected the concept of equality...meaning not everyone is equally talented etc. But for the most part the book focused on things he felt were important...such as giving women the right to vote...improving the working conditions for workers, reducing the retirement age, etc. Generally socialist and syndicalist policies...and all very pro democracy. You would be quite embarrassed if you had actually read it to pretend you know what it was about. Quote
herbie Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 41 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Trump's success in the first term was in deficit spending. That's not going to work forever, and when it fails we'll see some awful proposals to fix things. Kind of like here in BC. The only rational argument the Conservatives had against the NDP was attacking them on spending and deficits. Then when it came to the crunch they announced they'd spend even more! And they just about won.... 1 Quote
Michael Hardner Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 14 minutes ago, herbie said: Kind of like here in BC. The only rational argument the Conservatives had against the NDP was attacking them on spending and deficits. Then when it came to the crunch they announced they'd spend even more! And they just about won.... None of this is anything like the Trump deficits that are coming this way, if we can glean from past behavior. But believe it or not, I'm open-minded about all of this. His furied button smashing might produce something, although it might also crash the economy badly. I posted about the tariff plan here and a Trump supporter, I don't remember which one, asked "what tariff plan?" Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
herbie Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 Hey they're Americans. When I worked for the old BC Tel, Ronald Reagan made a policy that US communications had to be by US companies for security reasons. So they booted BC Tel out of Point Roberts. After serving the area since phones were invented because it's only attached to Tsawassen BC. BC Tel was 51% American owned. Service trucks must now pass through 4 borders and travel through Canada to get there.... cable had to be laid across the bay to connect it to the rest of Washington state. Ideology before efficiency is conservative common sense? Quote
robosmith Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 1 hour ago, Five of swords said: It was gentile who wrote the book. Mussolini was just the visible leader of the movement, so it was pretended he had a hand in it. But ge tile was obviously the intellectual who did all the writing and thinking. The fact you don't know that is funny. If you had actually read the book, by the way, you would know how absurd your current claims actually are. For sure gentile rejected the concept of equality...meaning not everyone is equally talented etc. But for the most part the book focused on things he felt were important...such as giving women the right to vote...improving the working conditions for workers, reducing the retirement age, etc. Generally socialist and syndicalist policies...and all very pro democracy. You would be quite embarrassed if you had actually read it to pretend you know what it was about. You should be quite embarrassed since you only post YOUR OPINION. Quote
Five of swords Posted November 9, 2024 Report Posted November 9, 2024 54 minutes ago, robosmith said: You should be quite embarrassed since you only post YOUR OPINION. Dude...it is fact. The doctrine of fascism for example argued for giving women the right to vote and the Italian fascist party did in fact give women that right for the first time in Italy. It also focused a lot on workers rights etc. You just never read it and have no idea what it is about. Quote
Nationalist Posted November 10, 2024 Report Posted November 10, 2024 7 hours ago, CdnFox said: I think the issue you're bringing up is independent of covid though. Covid left an awful lot of pent-up market energy it was Unleashed as soon as we went back to normal. If there's any critique there it would be that they didn't go back to normal soon enough and that they didn't do it in a "Rip the band-Aid off" Way, they did it in bits and pieces haphazardly with no real thought. The energy stuff is absolutely true but I think it's absolutely true weather covid happened or not. Our economy is showing great signs of weakness instead of leaning into our strengths and seeking business investment we chose to shut down the one industry we have traditionally relied on precarious through such times before we had transitioned to a new one. Weather covid had happened or not that's going to be death. And I see that they are looking to do it again. Indeed the actions of the government were stupid. Very stupid. 7 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: You have always been in support of fascist leaders. No. Have you? Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
CdnFox Posted November 10, 2024 Report Posted November 10, 2024 2 hours ago, Nationalist said: No. Have you? Well he DID Say that he'd be happy if his political opponents died because Darwin, so...... Quote
robosmith Posted November 10, 2024 Report Posted November 10, 2024 7 hours ago, Five of swords said: Dude...it is fact. The doctrine of fascism for example argued for giving women the right to vote and the Italian fascist party did in fact give women that right for the first time in Italy. It also focused a lot on workers rights etc. You just never read it and have no idea what it is about. Your claims, do not make it fact. We know Hitler was a fascist, destroyed German democracy, and killed a lot of his opposition. Try again. Quote
CdnFox Posted November 10, 2024 Report Posted November 10, 2024 1 hour ago, robosmith said: Your claims, do not make it fact. We know Hitler was a fascist, destroyed German democracy, and killed a lot of his opposition. Try again. Hitler really wasn't a fascist. A fascist is slightly different. Both Hitler's Nazism and mussolini's fascism are nationalistic in nature but there are important differences hitler was not a fascist and Mussolini was not a Nazi. I know the word tends to get thrown around these days as pretty much anybody the left doesn't like, but actual fascism is slightly different than the colloquial looser use of the word Quote
Nationalist Posted November 10, 2024 Report Posted November 10, 2024 7 hours ago, CdnFox said: Well he DID Say that he'd be happy if his political opponents died because Darwin, so...... Darwin? Lol. Li'l robo might wanna rethink that. I mean...Darwinism tends to treat cheaters and losers...unfavorabley. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
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