Are you a man or a woman?

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, Radiorum said:

We can't make policy based on disgust. We either guarantee the rights of all, or human rights become meaningless.

By denying them for who they are. And the simple fact is that transgender individuals are much more likely to be victims of crimes than criminals.

Good for you! Glad to hear it.

But it is what I do best. 

Who said anything about policy?

Obfuscation is what you do best? My sympathies.

[Deluge]

56 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

1. The Heritage Foundation is notoriously far right-wing, so I am skeptical of their bias.

2. A little bit of reading and contemplation might change your mind....

3. Lol. Thanks. I feel okay. I'm really one who does not come to conclusions based on whim or fancy, but by careful consideration. Things have to feel right to me, you know? 

4. Whether I am male or female is irrelevant. Address me as a fellow intellectual.

5. Thank you! I never heard of this place before last Friday, and I am glad I joined. 

1. So you're saying there's no agenda? lol

Let's try this one: 

https://transgenderlawcenter.org/trans-agenda-for-liberation/

2. Same for you. I suggest you read the Bible. Learn God's will; it just may change your life. 

3. Actually I don't know. Your feelings don't change the fact that you're still a man. 

4. You can refer to yourself as whatever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're a man. 

5. Good to have you here. 

 

[Radiorum]

10 minutes ago, Deluge said:

Let's try this one: 

https://transgenderlawcenter.org/trans-agenda-for-liberation/

It’s an agenda for liberation and justice. It’s an agenda to be free and to belong and be their authentic selves, to define themselves. Not to trample on others.

11 minutes ago, Deluge said:

I suggest you read the Bible. Learn God's will;

Nah, I'm too big of a questioner for that. But, thanks.

12 minutes ago, Deluge said:

don't change the fact that you're still a man. 

Should I make dick jokes?

12 minutes ago, Deluge said:

Good to have you here. 

Thank you! I appreciate it.

[Deluge]

16 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

1. It’s an agenda for liberation and justice. It’s an agenda to be free and to belong and be their authentic selves, to define themselves. Not to trample on others.

2. Nah, I'm too big of a questioner for that. But, thanks.

3. Should I make dick jokes?

1. No, it's an agenda of demands. Demands like this:

"We demand our gender identities be honored and protected in public and private spaces. We call on city and local Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) offices to allow anyone to self-attest to their name and gender marker, including genders besides male or female or the option to decline to specify a gender designation.

Problem: Black trans women and Black trans femmes are often harassed in public spaces because of our gender presentation. Black trans women and Black trans femmes are more vulnerable to violence without equitable, low-cost access to updating identity documents.

Strategy: We demand that all places of worship including churches, synagogues, and mosques, and spaces like barbershops, hair salons, gyms, and public pools begin to foster more healthy dialogue about the importance of gender diversity in order to make these environments safe, affirming, and nurturing for Black trans women and Black trans femmes. Black trans women and Black trans femmes should be able to navigate essential systems of housing, medical care, and employment that require identity documents."

2. God loves questions - lots and lots of questions. In fact, I'll bet He has more answers than you have questions.  

3. Nope, just be a man. 

[User]

21 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

It’s an agenda for liberation and justice. It’s an agenda to be free and to belong and be their authentic selves, to define themselves. Not to trample on others.

Not to trample on others... 

Oh you must have missed how they are stealing medals and opportunities from girls and women in sports? Like how they and their supporters want to compel others to use their pronouns? Like how they and their supporters want to force this into schools and onto parents?

 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Radiorum said:

 

4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Stop trying to redefine or obfuscate the obvious.

But it is what I do best. 

In fact it's all you do. I can only presume that you're here for the single purpose of making people feel like the transgender community is represented by completely Retarded people who can only Have a discussion by redefining with everyone else means to fit their narrative.

[CdnFox]

[Radiorum]

16 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Obfuscation is what you do best? My sympathies.

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

In fact it's all you do

Things are clear on my end. It's in the receiving of my messages that confusion enters the picture.

[Deluge]

1 hour ago, Radiorum said:

Things are clear on my end. It's in the receiving of my messages that confusion enters the picture.

Things are not clear on your end. Things are very UNCLEAR, and I think you know it. 

[User]

2 hours ago, Radiorum said:

Things are clear on my end. It's in the receiving of my messages that confusion enters the picture.

The issue is not how clear your message is. We understand fine the games you are playing here. 

[Scott75]

On 11/11/2024 at 8:23 AM, User said:

On 11/10/2024 at 4:57 PM, phoenyx75 said:

You've presented no evidence that calling biological males and females who identify as their biological gender would create a problem for 99% of the population.

You have presented no evidence there is any problem with simply calling people male, female, and trans...

Some trans people do find the term trans offensive. I found one example in a study:

**

“I find the term ‘trans’ to be offensive …” (Jacky)

**

Source:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10121610/

 

Jacky is a Transgender Male. For me, the more important issue is, why? I think the answer is that it can be used to discriminate against them in various situations. As I've said in the past, if a biological male is considering dating someone and makes it clear to someone, I think at -that- point it would be good for a transgender female make it clear that they are not a biological female, but other than situations like that, I don't think they should have to reveal this by default. Forcing people to say that they are trans is akin to the Nazis forcing jews to wear a distinctive peace of clothing to distinguish them from others:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_badge

We all know the dark path the Nazis took after that, nor were the Nazis the only ones to engage in this type of thing as the above link shows.

On 11/11/2024 at 8:23 AM, User said:

So, whatever evidence you think you have here for whatever percentage of people that are trans, use those numbers and my argument is that the vast majority of the population was just fine with things as is and you are flipping it around to cater to the firing minority. 

YOU are creating a problem that doesn't exist.

The problem is that some people wrongfully discriminate against people who don't conform to arbitrary ideas of what is "gender normal". I believe you know that I'm currently against minors undergoing hormone therapy and even surgery and I strongly suspect that even many adults who undergo these procedures would actually be better off with -not- undergoing these things, if only society were more accepting of people being more accepting of people who didn't conform to society's views of gender norms. There is perhaps no country on earth that is more extreme about this then in Iran:

https://qz.com/889548/everyone-treated-me-like-a-saint-in-iran-theres-only-one-way-to-survive-as-a-transgender-person

 

But there are shadows of this type of thing in many cultures, including western ones.

Edited December 14, 2024 by phoenyx75

[Scott75]

On 11/11/2024 at 8:23 AM, User said:

On 11/10/2024 at 4:57 PM, phoenyx75 said:

It only works if the people you are calling males and females define males and females as only those who are biologically so. If some of the people you are addressing also define males and females as those who are biologically of one gender, but identify as the other,  you have a problem.

You don't seem to care at all about the vast majority of people who define the terms as they actually are and instead want to create a new term for them. 

You keep on saying things like "the vast majority", but you haven't actually shown me any statistics as to how many people mind trans people just saying that they are the gender that they identify with. The main issue is that there is a fair amount of transgender inequality. Wikipedia has a helpful article on the subject, I'll quote its introduction below:

**

Transgender inequality is the unequal protection received by transgender people in work, school, and society in general. Transgender people regularly face transphobic harassment. Ultimately, one of the largest reasons that transgender people face inequality is due to a lack of public understanding of transgender people.^[1]

Anti-transgender stigma leads to employment discrimination, exclusion from healthcare, and increased risks of poverty and homelessness, which in turn correspond to greater risks of fatal violence.^[2] Abuse and murder of transgender people is pervasive;^[3][4] in November 2021, "2021 was the deadliest year...of anti-transgender violence in the United States."^[5] Those who have died as a result of transphobia are commonly remembered on Transgender Day of Remembrance.^[6][7][8]

**

Full article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_inequality

 

I don't know anyone who has died to to anti-transgender violence, but I did meet a trans man who had a very severe limp. I noticed the limp when a men's group I was in were going for something to eat. When I asked him how he got that limp, he told me he'd been severely beaten for being transgender. So as you can see, there are -very- good reasons why trans people would want to hide the fact that they're trans from most people, as anti-transgender violence is a very real thing. 

 

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, phoenyx75 said:

You keep on saying things like "the vast majority", but you haven't actually shown me any statistics as to how many people mind trans people just saying that they are the gender that they identify with. The main issue is that there is a fair amount of transgender inequality. Wikipedia has a helpful article on the subject, I'll quote its introduction below:

**

Transgender inequality is the unequal protection received by transgender people in work, school, and society in general. Transgender people regularly face transphobic harassment. Ultimately, one of the largest reasons that transgender people face inequality is due to a lack of public understanding of transgender people.^[1]

Anti-transgender stigma leads to employment discrimination, exclusion from healthcare, and increased risks of poverty and homelessness, which in turn correspond to greater risks of fatal violence.^[2] Abuse and murder of transgender people is pervasive;^[3][4] in November 2021, "2021 was the deadliest year...of anti-transgender violence in the United States."^[5] Those who have died as a result of transphobia are commonly remembered on Transgender Day of Remembrance.^[6][7][8]

**

Full article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_inequality

 

I don't know anyone who has died to to anti-transgender violence, but I did meet a trans man who had a very severe limp. I noticed the limp when a men's group I was in were going for something to eat. When I asked him how he got that limp, he told me he'd been severely beaten for being transgender. So as you can see, there are -very- good reasons why trans people would want to hide the fact that they're trans from most people, as anti-transgender violence is a very real thing. 

 

If you think you can rid society of such acts, you're barking up the wrong tree. We don't know the circumstances that lead to such beatings, but I'd say they are probably instinctual in nature.

[Scott75]

On 11/11/2024 at 8:26 AM, User said:

On 11/10/2024 at 5:05 PM, phoenyx75 said:

On 11/9/2024 at 11:10 AM, User said:

On 11/9/2024 at 10:47 AM, phoenyx75 said:

What you have is an inability to realize that you keep flip flopping on whether or not terms like gender have more than a single definition. I'm sure you'll figure it out at some point, but until you do, it's pretty hard to debate with you whether there -should- be more than one defition of these terms.

I have not flip-flopped on anything. 

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this one.

There is no agree to disagree. You accused me of something, you can't back it up, its that simple.

I've already backed it up, you just didn't notice. If anyone else is intersted in the evidence I gathered on the subject, by all means take a look at the nested quotes in post #394 in this thread, which can be seen here:

https://repolitics.com/forums/?app=core&module=system&controller=content&do=find&content_class=forums_Topic&content_id=54465&content_commentid=1765873

[Scott75]

On 11/11/2024 at 8:26 AM, User said:

On 11/10/2024 at 5:05 PM, phoenyx75 said:

On 11/9/2024 at 11:10 AM, User said:

On 11/9/2024 at 10:47 AM, phoenyx75 said:

What you have is an inability to realize that you keep flip flopping on whether or not terms like gender have more than a single definition. I'm sure you'll figure it out at some point, but until you do, it's pretty hard to debate with you whether there -should- be more than one defition of these terms.

[snip] You can't even defend the lousy definition of the terms you want to use.

Perhaps we can agree to disagree on this one too.

Nope. You are the one here pushing this madness. If you are not interested in defending it, stop.

"Madness", eh? Your language betrays your mindset. What I'm concerned about is if it makes sense to continue to try to get you and others here to see certain things that you seem determined not to see.

Edited December 14, 2024 by phoenyx75

[Scott75]

On 11/11/2024 at 8:26 AM, User said:

On 11/10/2024 at 5:05 PM, phoenyx75 said:

I and a fair amount of others define terms like male and female gender by including the word male and female, but it's not the whole term. So, someone who is of the male gender is someone who identifies as a male. It's similar to someone who is a democrat is someone who identifies as a democrat. The point is that it's a social construct. You can ofcourse call it "gibberish" if you like, but it's a concept that's now embedded in Wikipedia and in some dictionaries and I suspect it's a definition that's here to stay whether you like it or not.

I have already addressed this bad argument of yours. A democrat is not defined as someone who identifies as a democrat.

That depends on what definition is being used. As with terms like male and female, the term democrat has more than one defintion. Here are the 3 definitions of the term given by the American Heritage Dictionary, 5th Edition:

**

• noun An advocate of democracy.
• noun One who believes in social equality or discounts distinctions in rank.
• noun A member of the Democratic Party.

**

The first 2 definitions are rather nebulous. For the first, I think it'd be hard to find a lot of people who live in democracies who -don't- advocate for democracy. Going by that definition, then, I think we could agree that most people living in democratic countries are democrats. The second might be more contentious. As to the third, as far as I know, any American citizen can register to be a democrat. I looked at the procedures required a bit, but decided it wasn't going worth going through a document on all the steps required to be sure. Feel free to take a look for yourself if you like:

https://www.wikihow.com/Become-a-Registered-Democrat

 

 

Edited December 14, 2024 by phoenyx75

[Scott75]

On 11/11/2024 at 8:29 AM, User said:

On 11/10/2024 at 5:22 PM, phoenyx75 said:

On 11/9/2024 at 11:15 AM, User said:

On 11/9/2024 at 10:42 AM, phoenyx75 said:

I'm certainly voicing my belief that I believe that the new definitions for gender, male, female, etc. are good ones. I clearly don't agree with you that my arguments are "awful...nonsensical gibberish". Again, if you want to explain your reasoning as to why you believe these things, by all means.

You certainly assert they are "good" but have no ability to argue that. 

My reasoning is fairly simple- some people who are born of one biological gender identify as the other one socially.

That is not what you are here doing. You are here wanting us to use different definitions of the words to accommodate these delusions.

You always want to make this about me, when this issue is so clearly much larger than me. What I've been doing for some time now is pointing out that there's a significant group of people who now define a person's gender as the gender they identify with. I think in your heart, you know this is true. You can rail about it and say that you don't like it, but it doesn't change this fact.

[Scott75]

On 11/11/2024 at 8:38 AM, User said:

On 11/11/2024 at 7:48 AM, phoenyx75 said:

First of all, it would be nice if you'd acknowledge that I'm not the person who expanded the meanings gender terms. It was done long before I arrived on the scene and is now included in places like Wikipedia and some dictionaries.

Secondly, it -is- done with Democrats and Republicans. A Democrat is someone who identifies as a Democrat, same thing with a Republican.

You are the one arguing for changing the meanings and using them. It was not done long before you arrived here either.

Your argument at this point is just sad. I did notice a few people in this thread who tried to helpfully point out to you and others here the way the world has changed, and I also saw the attempts of a few others who think as you do try to hide this truth. Terms like gender have more than a single definition. The fact that people have generally stopped trying to get this through to you and people who think like you in this forum only means that people's patience is limited, not that it's not true. You don't like Wikipedia and some dictionaries making this obvious, fine, but it's obvious to anyone who's willing to look.

Edited December 14, 2024 by phoenyx75

[Scott75]

On 11/11/2024 at 9:15 AM, Deluge said:

On 11/11/2024 at 8:27 AM, phoenyx75 said:

If you want to argue that transgender people and those who support some of their causes such as defining gender as anyone who identifies as said gender are somehow like the Nazis and the fascists, you're welcome to do so. However, I think it's worth pointing out that good arguments require good evidence.

There is no good argument for mainstreaming transgenderism.

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree on that point.

[ironstone]

Conservatives may ask, male or female?

Progressives counter that there are dozens, perhaps hundreds of different genders. And they are all fluid.

🙄

[Scott75]

On 11/11/2024 at 10:24 AM, Yakuda said:

On 11/1/2024 at 9:48 PM, phoenyx75 said:

I don't know what reality robosmith was referring to. As to having 2 XX chromosomes, that can certainly determine a person's sex or biological gender, but not necessarily one's gender. Again, it all depends on who's defining the term.

XX chromosomes DOES certainly not, can certainly determine a person's sex and gender. You can think you're a chicken but that doesn't make you a chicken. I dont care how you define chicken. If we can agree that a person isn't a chicken simply because they declare themselves so, how then can a man be a woman simply by declaring it so? 

It all has to do with how people are defining terms like gender. You clearly want to equate a person's sex with a person's gender, but a significant amount of people no longer do this. Wikipedia gets into all of this in its introduction to the gender term:

**

Gender includes the social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of being a man, woman, or other gender identity.^[1][2] Depending on the context, this may include sex-based social constructs (i.e. gender roles) as well as gender expression.^[3][4][5] Most cultures use a gender binary, in which gender is divided into two categories, and people are considered part of one or the other (girls/women and boys/men);^[6][7][8] those who are outside these groups may fall under the umbrella term non-binary. A number of societies have specific genders besides "man" and "woman," such as the hijras of South Asia; these are often referred to as third genders (and fourth genders, etc.). Most scholars agree that gender is a central characteristic for social organization.^[9]

The word is also used as a synonym for sex, and the balance between these usages has shifted over time.^[10][11][12] In the mid-20th century, a terminological distinction in modern English (known as the sex and gender distinction) between biological sex and gender began to develop in the academic areas of psychology, sociology, sexology, and feminism.^[13][14] Before the mid-20th century, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.^[3][1] In the West, in the 1970s, feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. The distinction between gender and sex is made by most contemporary social scientists in Western countries,^[15][16][17] behavioral scientists and biologists,^[18] many legal systems and government bodies,^[19] and intergovernmental agencies such as the WHO.^[20]

**

Full article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

[Scott75]

On 11/13/2024 at 12:53 PM, CdnFox said:

On 11/13/2024 at 12:33 PM, phoenyx75 said:

On 11/10/2024 at 2:59 PM, CdnFox said:

It's not a question of caring. It's a question of whether or not anything you say has value. If it contributes to a conversation or not or is just you being a pathetic little weasel.

One thing I hope you learn one day- personal attacks never contribute to a discussion in a positive way. Your emotions are in control, not you. 

Kid you have nothing to teach me.

I can believe that. As the old saying goes, When The Student Is Ready, The Teacher Will Appear. I hope that one day, you learn how insulting people isn't the best way to engage in a productive conversation.

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, ironstone said:

Conservatives may ask, male or female?

Progressives counter that there are dozens, perhaps hundreds of different genders. And they are all fluid.

🙄

Maybe so, but many conservatives see gender identity as a matter of self-expression and, therefore, a matter of personal freedom.  Of course, you don't have to accept this idea.

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, phoenyx75 said:

I can believe that. As the old saying goes, When The Student Is Ready, The Teacher Will Appear. I hope that one day, you learn how insulting people isn't the best way to engage in a productive conversation.

You're trying to discuss something with someone who doesn't see discussion as an activity different from rock/paper/scissors.  To many here, discussion is a zero sum game and if you question assumptions, or are unclear on their points, they will declare that you are 'playing games' and abandon the discussion ... adding " and you know this " to their points.  So they simultaneously try to discuss with you and accuse you of being an abject liar.  It makes no sense.

I started using the IGNORE feature to said people en masse.  I do peek at their responses, guiltily, occasionally but it's a pretty effective way for me to focus my forum time on people who actually want to talk.

[User]

2 hours ago, phoenyx75 said:

Some trans people do find the term trans offensive. I found one example in a study:

If your "evidence" of this being a "problem" is that some find it offensive, then it is just as much a problem that I and others find it offensive that you want to call normal people "cis"

OMG, you are on a dark path like the Nazis took!

2 hours ago, phoenyx75 said:

The problem is that some people wrongfully discriminate against

That is not the problem we were discussing. You are just completely changing the subject. You were the one saying there was some problem with simply calling men males and female females that had to be solved by calling them cis instead. 

You come back after all this time, resurrect this discussion... to respond like this? Give me a break.