Hezbollah terrorists were in the market for some pagers... Israel says here you go!

[User]

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Don't be childish.  I don't need to explain to you that there are varying degrees of certainty.  

I did not ask you to explain to me there are varying degrees of certainty. I am asking you to explain what is enough for you, because you keep using more absolutist language that Israel needed to know for sure, when nothing is for sure. 

The only childish notions going on here is your attempt to now characterize what is obviously a targetted attack on Hezbollah members having to use pagers to hide their communications from Israel because they are engaged in the kind of communications you need to hide that involve the current warfare with Israel... as if they were all just poor innocent random civilians. 

And then your attempt to try to rationalize that a full-scale war is somehow better than a targeted attack on the actual enemy. 

10 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

If you attack a rocket launcher then you know with certainty that you're blowing up a rocket launcher. If you accidentally happen to injure someone else in the process that's unfortunate but you still attack a known military threat.

This is doublespeak. If you blow up some kids in the process of blowing up that rocket launcher, then no, you clearly did not know with certainty you were blowing up a rocket launcher because you just blew up some kids too. 

15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And I would remind you that simply being a member of Hezbollah itself is not a crime. Just like being Israeli wasn't a crime for the 1200 civilians killed in israel. 

What?

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. What next... well, yeah he was a NAZI SS Officer executing Jews, but he was also a coach for his kids soccer team, so totally not cool to kill him... 

26 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I do not. I think targeting civilian populations is unacceptable. I don't think it's ever okay to kill  or target non combatants.   THat's a moral and ethnical position not a factual one.  So if you've got a different opinion so be it. 

They targeted members of a terrorist organization that specifically ordered pagers to evade Israeli signals intelligence for the purpose of being able to coordinate further terrorist warfare against Israel. That is why they were targeted. 

You keep trying to spin this as if it were just some random jolly folks getting some pagers for every day life, you know, just because... and then those evil bad Israeli's just randomly intercepted a shipment having no idea why or for what and put explosives in them with no clue or care in the world just blowing up some wonderful people...

Give me a break. 

And the worst part is you would rather see Israel instead engage in full scale war to kill even more civilians?

 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, User said:

I did not ask you to explain to me there are varying degrees of certainty. I

 

Yes, you did and it's childish.

Quote

am asking you to explain what is enough for you, because you keep using more absolutist language that Israel needed to know for sure, when nothing is for sure. 

And there you go again. At no time did I use absolutely distant language that's a red herring on your part to try and dodge the fact that there is an acceptable level of risk and then there is a risk level that is not acceptable. I even gave examples, bombing a building with a terrorist in it is one thing, carpet bombing the neighborhood to be sure you get him is something very different. 

If they are directly attacking a known military facility or even personally targeting a known combatant or leader that is one thing. If they are randomly blowing people up who are not active combatants then that is another thing entirely

2 hours ago, User said:

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

Says who?  That's the problem, it's universally recognized that It;s a legit gov't party in Lebanon and provides a tonne of social and civic services as well as having a militant arm.  SOME countries also list it as a terrorist group but that is in no way universal and the UN does not recognize that. 

Hezbollah - Wikipedia

So who did israel blow up? Was it doctors in the hospitals hezbolla runs? They're just as much a part of 'hezbolla' as any front line fighter. 

And this is my problem. 

Let's be clear, Hezbollah is Scott and it wouldn't break my heart to see every single one of their combatants dead.

But there are rules. You do not conduct wide scale untargeted military operations in countries that you haven't advised that you are at war with or at least declared a police action. You do not target civilian populations. And simply creating exploding pagers because Hezbollah is buying them definitely targets civilians as well as combatants. Hezbollah has many many civilian non-combatant people.

 

Again, if you are okay with the targeting of civilians in a non-declared conflict at random then that's something that you're okay with. I am not.

[WestCanMan]

On 9/17/2024 at 10:41 PM, CdnFox said:

If it's true with regards to the Israeli involvement that's not okay. There's currently no declaration of war, there's no way to know whether or not that pager might be in the possession of a child or something like that, well I think we can all agree that Hezbollah deserves what it gets at the same time there are rules and they are important. This is closer to a terrorist act than a military operation.

Having said that I'll believe it was Israel when Israel takes credit for it. And when there's a little more proof that it really was thousands of people. There is zero chance I'm going to take hezbollah's word on anything

1. I think we all know it's Israel but they may never admit to it.
2. Hezbollah ordered the pagers, that's targeted to 'military' (Hezby terrorists) enough imo. 
3. If Hezbollah wasn't in the business of launching rockets at civilian populations to kill kids I'd be sympathetic to the civilian injuries. 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

1. I think we all know it's Israel but they may never admit to it.

I definitely believe it's likely, but I always leave the door open to the possibility that either a it wasn't or B critical details that would change my opinion have not come to light and we're not accurately represented in the original story so it didn't happen quite as described. 

1. 
   

2. Quote

   Hezbollah ordered the pagers, that's targeted to 'military' (Hezby terrorists) enough imo. 

   And if you want to have that opinion i'm not going to stop you. I disagree. Hezby  (i'm totally stealing that)  has a lot of non combatants and provides medical and other infrastructure on top of their military activites. And it seems just as likely those people got pagers, our firefighters and first responders here in canada often carry them. 

3. Quote

   If Hezbollah wasn't in the business of launching rockets at civilian populations to kill kids I'd be sympathetic to the civilian injuries. 

   One terrorist activity doesnt' justify another. 

You know how i feel about civilian casualties where there is no avoiding them to get at a military target. Stand in front of a hamas bunker and you deserve to get blown up. 

But this is not that. They could not know who was wearing the pager when it blew up, they could not know how many people they were putting at risk when it blew up, this was not targeted.  It would be like putting bombs in cell phones bought by the gov't of canada because some of the employees are soldiers.  You dont know that soldiers will be getting the phones with any reasonable certainty. 

Hey, at the end of the day if you feel comfortable with it then until a court of loss says it was illegal that's that. I don't feel comfortable with it, I don't feel it's sufficiently targeted for peace time.  As long as you would be okay with the bad guys doing the same thing to us and our people then that's fine.

[Army Guy]

On 9/18/2024 at 5:00 PM, TreeBeard said:

This seemed more terroristic than the terrorists.  Does anyone else think there needs to be a level to which we wouldn’t stoop?

Killing infants in their cribs is not low enough for you....thats the standard the terrorist set...

[WestCanMan]

29 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Hezby  (i'm totally stealing that)  has a lot of non combatants and provides medical and other infrastructure on top of their military activites. And it seems just as likely those people got pagers, our firefighters and first responders here in canada often carry them. 

Hezbollah is literally dedicated to genocide. Anyone who is part of that org is a viable target. Too bad for them.

Quote

1. One terrorist activity doesnt' justify another. 

Killing terrorists is never terrorism imo. 

Quote

But this is not that. They could not know who was wearing the pager when it blew up, they could not know how many people they were putting at risk when it blew up, this was not targeted.  It would be like putting bombs in cell phones bought by the gov't of canada because some of the employees are soldiers.  You dont know that soldiers will be getting the phones with any reasonable certainty. 

Hey, at the end of the day if you feel comfortable with it then until a court of loss says it was illegal that's that. I don't feel comfortable with it, I don't feel it's sufficiently targeted for peace time.  As long as you would be okay with the bad guys doing the same thing to us and our people then that's fine.

I totally understand you. It's not a bad thing to put law and order ahead of good and evil. You felt the same way about India taking out their garbage in Canada too. 

On the one hand I do see the value of the law and order route, but at the same time, terrorist attacks are easier to commit than prevent, and when you have a guy in your sights and you need to stop him there's always a difference between:

1. what authorities know and what they can prove beyond a shadow of doubt
2. what they can prove with evidence that was gathered legally
3. what they could prove if they were willing to allow the rest of the world know how they gathered their evidence. Sometimes a valuable intel gathering method could be compromised by displaying the evidence gathered.

When it comes to Hamas and Hezbollah, erring on the side of caution means shooting first and asking questions later.

If 2,000 of the 4,000 people injured were Hezbllah that's well worth it imo. In this day and age a 1:1 military/civilian casualty rate is really high, and that's when soldiers are uniformed and gathered on bases and along battle lines. When the combatants aren't in uniform it's even harder.

There's a good chance that 75% of the people injured were Hamas, because Hamas ordered the pagers. If it was 75%, that qualifies and a massive military success imo. If it was 90% plus, that's poetry. 

Re: first responders and medical personnel: 

• Thousands of pagers simultaneously exploded across Lebanon and parts of Syria on September 17, 2024, resulting in at least 12 deaths, including at least two children and two health workers, and at least 2,800 injuries, according to Lebanon’s Ministry of Health. www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/18/lebanon-exploding-pagers-harmed-hezbollah-civilians.

 

Edited September 20, 2024 by WestCanMan

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Hezbollah is literally dedicated to genocide. Anyone who is part of that org is a viable target. Too bad for them.

 

Well remember that's what other Palestinian groups say about Israel. If we use that kind of thing as an excuse then you can justify any level of depravity. There has to be rules. I feel like this crossed that line

Quote

Killing terrorists is never terrorism imo. 

You can't say that somebody's a terrorist just because they happen to work for hezbollah anymore than you can say someone is a terrorist because they work for the US government just because you disagree with CIA activities abroad. As I said Hezbollah actually does maintain hospitals and other civil service inside Lebanon. Not all of its people are terrorists.

Quote

I totally understand you. It's not a bad thing to put law and order ahead of good and evil. You felt the same way about India taking out their garbage in Canada too. 

Yes, I think we're both consistent in our beliefs and honestly that is something to be proud of for both of us. There's a lot of people who swing in their beliefs depending on whether or not they like the groups involved and clearly both of us have more opinions we're willing to stick by regardless.

 

Quote

On the one hand I do see the value of the law and order route, but at the same time, terrorist attacks are easier to commit than prevent,  .... (snip!) ....  When it comes to Hamas and Hezbollah, erring on the side of caution means shooting first and asking questions later.

 

Sure. I disagree as you know but as I've already conceded until a court of law says otherwise it's not illegal And your matter of opinion is as valid as mine

Quote

 

If 2,000 of the 4,000 people injured were Hezbllah that's well worth it imo. In this day and age a 1:1 military/civilian casualty rate is really high, and that's when soldiers are uniformed and gathered on bases and along battle lines. When the combatants aren't in uniform it's even harder.

There's a good chance that 75% of the people injured were Hamas, because Hamas ordered the pagers. If it was 75%, that qualifies and a massive military success imo. If it was 90% plus, that's poetry. 

 

I just can't get behind hundreds of non-Hezbollah casualties among civilians in an Undeclared conflict no matter what. To me that's just not acceptable. I'm not okay with the idea of someone coming here and killing 250 of our people without cause, I'm not okay with Israel doing it to someone else. Hezbollah is absolute scum and trash but not all of the people in it are and not all of the people in it are combatants and not all of the people who were affected by this will have anything to do with Hamas.

 

Quote

 

Re: first responders and medical personnel: 

• Thousands of pagers simultaneously exploded across Lebanon and parts of Syria on September 17, 2024, resulting in at least 12 deaths, including at least two children and two health workers, and at least 2,800 injuries, according to Lebanon’s Ministry of Health. www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/18/lebanon-exploding-pagers-harmed-hezbollah-civilians.

 

 

So 25% of the fatalities were civilians and non-combatants. And that's what we know of.

I just can't accept that. I cannot accept targeting and killing civilians in an Undeclared conflict any more than I could accept a foreign nation coming to Canada and killing our people at random. I get that you feel differently. We're not going to agree on this, we just have different Views on what the priorities should be

[TreeBeard]

19 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Killing infants in their cribs is not low enough for you....thats the standard the terrorist set...

You’re good with killing babies?

[WestCanMan]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well remember that's what other Palestinian groups say about Israel. If we use that kind of thing as an excuse then you can justify any level of depravity. There has to be rules. I feel like this crossed that line

The Israeli gov't doesn't openly endorse genocide, and they're obviously interested in being at peace in a region where they're outnumbered 100 to one.

Quote

You can't say that somebody's a terrorist just because they happen to work for hezbollah anymore than you can say someone is a terrorist because they work for the US government just because you disagree with CIA activities abroad. As I said Hezbollah actually does maintain hospitals and other civil service inside Lebanon. Not all of its people are terrorists.

 I don't think anyone can make the case that the CIA is trying to commit genocide.

Quote

Yes, I think we're both consistent in our beliefs and honestly that is something to be proud of for both of us. There's a lot of people who swing in their beliefs depending on whether or not they like the groups involved and clearly both of us have more opinions we're willing to stick by regardless.

👍

Quote

I just can't get behind hundreds of non-Hezbollah casualties among civilians in an Undeclared conflict no matter what. To me that's just not acceptable. I'm not okay with the idea of someone coming here and killing 250 of our people without cause, I'm not okay with Israel doing it to someone else. Hezbollah is absolute scum and trash but not all of the people in it are and not all of the people in it are combatants and not all of the people who were affected by this will have anything to do with Hamas.

Hezbollah had already amassed something like 170,000 rockets to launch at Israel back when the war started. It was critical for the Israelis to diminish their capacity to launch all of those quickly. It's not a matter of 250 or 1,000 lives, it's 14 million. If Israel has a bad day, they all die. Islamic jihadists just kill everyone they can. Look at Pakistan's recent genocides, they're horrific people. There's no low they won't stoop to.

Quote

So 25% of the fatalities were civilians and non-combatants. And that's what we know of.

If even Hezbollah is admitting that 75% of the injured and killed were Hezbys then it's probably closer to 90, but even a 75% success rate of targeting civilians during a war in this day and age is money. I doubt that Russia is killing 75% soldiers, same as Israel in Gaza. 

Quote

I just can't accept that. I cannot accept targeting and killing civilians in an Undeclared conflict any more than I could accept a foreign nation coming to Canada and killing our people at random. I get that you feel differently. We're not going to agree on this, we just have different Views on what the priorities should be

The Israelis clearly didn't "target" civilians, and it's not really an "undeclared conflict" either. Hezbollah is attacking Israel, so Israel is well within their rights to retaliate or even escalate as they see fit. 

[WestCanMan]

On 9/18/2024 at 1:00 PM, TreeBeard said:

This seemed more terroristic than the terrorists.  Does anyone else think there needs to be a level to which we wouldn’t stoop?

Hezbollah bought the pagers, and they're 100% legitimate targets for military strikes. It's no different than if the IDF bought those pagers. Dept of Nat'l Defence property = viable target. 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

 I don't think anyone can make the case that the CIA is trying to commit genocide.

My challenge is that anyone can make a case for anything.  Look at some of the woke arguments here - they beggar logic but still these people believe them like gospel. 

That's why i feel there has to be rules and not just opinions. And to me knowingly blowing up civvies who were not just in the way between you and your target is over the line in an undeclared conflict.  You would see different rules and fair enough. 

Quote

even a 75% success rate of targeting civilians during a war in this day and age is money.

Agreed but this isn't a war. If they want to fight a war then declare it. Say out loud that this is a war and here's our terms of surrender that we would accept from you and hostilities and combat operations will commence immediately let all be warned.

Then everyone can fight with clear rules and understandings of international law and the rules of war. And as we know that may very well mean death of civilians. But now everyone is aware of what's happening and what they can expect.

 

Quote

The Israelis clearly didn't "target" civilians, and it's not really an "undeclared conflict" either. Hezbollah is attacking Israel, so Israel is well within their rights to retaliate or even escalate as they see fit. 

The people who were injured and died were the targets. It's not like they were shooting at John and hit jack. They intended for anybody who received one of these pagers to be injured and killed. Many were civilians. This is entirely different than a situation where a military target is shot at and civilians that just happened to be in the area get hit. These pagers were tampered with knowing that some would be given to civilians and that those civilians would be targeted when the pagers exploded.

 

Don't get me wrong. I find it every bit as hilarious as the next guy that Israel has basically gone around blowing the balls off of hezbollah militant cowards. And if that was the only people that could be hurt I would probably be singing a different tune. I just cannot abide civilians being killed in this fashion.

[User]

15 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And there you go again. At no time did I use absolutely distant language

You have repeatedly used language saying they can't be sure... 

15 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I even gave examples, bombing a building with a terrorist in it is one thing, carpet bombing the neighborhood to be sure you get him is something very different. 

Yes, you gave this horrible example... as what they did is nothing like carpet bombing a neighborhood. This was a targetted strike against members of Hezbollah. 

What you want and advocate for is a full scale war, that would result in actual bombing of buildings killing far more innocent civilians. 

Lets see... what is more precise? Lets send in jets to drop 2,000 pound bombs leveling buildings and military infrastructure resulting in thousands of civilian deaths ongoing deaths... 

OR

Lets put very small bombs in the literal hands of the enemy combatants being targetted and blow them up... resulting in some much smaller collateral damage to civilians and even far fewer deaths of any civilians. 

Meanwhile, you are over here comparing that to carpet bombing. 

Childish doesn't even begin to sum up the level of arguments you are using. 

16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Says who? 

Well, this is starting to make more sense now... you don't even think they are a terrorist organization and are going to argue about that. 

Clearly you are just upset that this was such a massively effective operation at targeting Hezbollah, who you are defending. 

Meanwhile, while Israel is engaged in such a strategic precision strike, the folks you are defending are lobbing rockets indiscriminately and randomly into Isreal at such frequency they had to evacuate almost a hundred thousand people and they are still blowing up kids outside playing... 

THAT is random and indiscriminate, the people you are defending are doing that. 

[WestCanMan]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Agreed but this isn't a war. If they want to fight a war then declare it.

As always, it's an attempt at genocide against Israel. Hezbollah and Iran just aren't certain how they want to proceed. 

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, User said:

You have repeatedly used language saying they can't be sure... 

And how is that absolute language. If anything that is the opposite, that is a statement saying that they can't be certain. For heaven's sake. And it's worth noting you yourself said that they can't be certain.

3 hours ago, User said:

Yes, you gave this horrible example... as what they did is nothing like carpet bombing a neighborhood. This was a targetted strike against members of Hezbollah. 

It was a perfectly good example and I note that you can't refute it. You just simply say that you don't like it or that this is different without offering any explanation or logic.

The example proves a point that is well established in international law. You are not allowed to use force in such a way that it is unreasonably targeting civilians. Your argument seemed to be that any number of civilians were allowed to die and that's no problem. It is a problem.

3 hours ago, User said:

What you want and advocate for is a full scale war, that would result in actual bombing of buildings killing far more innocent civilians. 

I'm not advocating for one or the other. I'm saying if you're going to wage a war then declare a war. If you're not going to wage a war then you cannot use tactics and do things that are suitable only in war.

If they're not willing to declare a war then they cannot be using tactics that are appropriate in a war. That's just how it works. Targeting civilians as they did outside of a military war is unacceptable.

3 hours ago, User said:

Meanwhile, while Israel is engaged in such a strategic precision strike, the folks you are defending are lobbing rockets indiscriminately and randomly into Isreal at such frequency they had to evacuate almost a hundred thousand people and they are still blowing up kids outside playing... 

Let's get one thing straight you ignorant piece of shit. Claiming I'm defending anyone other than the civilian population of a nation is ignorant and a pathetically childish attempt to cover up the fact that you have no logical argument or reason. Suggesting that I support terrorists because i don't want to see civvies dead is pathetic and shows your desperation. 

You might do well arguing against the complete fools of the woke left here but don't try that shit with me.

If Hezbollah is shooting rockets At Israel than either bomb the rocket sites or if necessary declare a war and wipe them out It's that simple

Meanwhile it looks like about 25% or more of the casualties of this attack were civilians including children and health workers. Apparently you think I'm a bad person fo. r saying we shouldn't be blowing up children and health workers. Get your head on straight.

Edited September 20, 2024 by CdnFox

[User]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And how is that absolute language. If anything that is the opposite, that is a statement saying that they can't be certain. For heaven's sake. And it's worth noting you yourself said that they can't be certain.

Because you are the one on here arguing against this because they were not sure. Of course I am saying they can't be sure... because it isn't my argument that they should not have done this because of that. 

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It was a perfectly good example and I note that you can't refute it.

Refute it? I have pointed out several times now, just as I did this time, why it is a dumb comparison. 

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You just simply say that you don't like it or that this is different without offering any explanation or logic.

Oh, you must have missed this, let me copy and paste:

"

Yes, you gave this horrible example... as what they did is nothing like carpet bombing a neighborhood. This was a targetted strike against members of Hezbollah. 

What you want and advocate for is a full scale war, that would result in actual bombing of buildings killing far more innocent civilians. 

Lets see... what is more precise? Lets send in jets to drop 2,000 pound bombs leveling buildings and military infrastructure resulting in thousands of civilian deaths ongoing deaths... 

OR

Lets put very small bombs in the literal hands of the enemy combatants being targetted and blow them up... resulting in some much smaller collateral damage to civilians and even far fewer deaths of any civilians. 

Meanwhile, you are over here comparing that to carpet bombing. 

Childish doesn't even begin to sum up the level of arguments you are using. "

6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You are not allowed to use force in such a way that it is unreasonably targeting civilians. Your argument seemed to be that any number of civilians were allowed to die and that's no problem. It is a problem.

They were not targeting civilians. They were targeting Hezbollah. 

7 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I'm not advocating for one or the other. I'm saying if you're going to wage a war then declare a war. If you're not going to wage a war then you cannot use tactics and do things that are suitable only in war.

What is this, some kind of voodoo logic? You are here clearly advocating that they must declare war instead of doing this targeted strike. You just did again, right now. 

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Targeting civilians as they did outside of a military war is unacceptable.

They were not targeting civilians. They were targeting Hezbollah. 

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Let's get one thing straight you ignorant piece of shit. Claiming I'm defending anyone other than the civilian population of a nation is ignorant and a pathetically childish attempt to cover up the fact that you have no logical argument or reason.

You are on here balking at calling a terrorist organization a terrorist organization, trying to claim these are civilians. If you don't want to be accused of defending them... don't defend them. 

10 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You might do well arguing against the complete fools of the woke left here but don't try that shit with me.

Well, right now, you are not proving to be much better. 

10 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

If Hezbollah is shooting rockets At Israel than either bomb the rocket sites or if necessary declare a war and wipe them out It's that simple

Is this the part where you tell me you are not advocating for war over a targeted strike again?

11 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Meanwhile it looks like about 25% or more of the casualties of this attack were civilians including children and health workers. Apparently you think I'm a bad person fo. r saying we shouldn't be blowing up children and health workers. Get your head on straight.

Casualties to what extent?

Barely hurting some civilians while seriously harming the terrorist thugs of Hezbollah is a clear win. 

You are the one saying instead of some small explosions causing some minimal harm to civilians Israel should be dropping 2,000 pound bombs all over Lebanon in a full scale war killing a lot more innocent people. 

My head is on straight. 

You want more people dead and suffering. I want less. 

[CdnFox]

21 minutes ago, User said:

Because you are the one on here arguing against this because they were not sure. Of course I am saying they can't be sure... because it isn't my argument that they should not have done this because of that. 

Refute it? I have pointed out several times now, just as I did this time, why it is a dumb comparison. 

Oh, you must have missed this, let me copy and paste:

That's just nonsense.   I'm using aboslute language because i'm arguing things aren't absolute and they can't be sure? 

And refuing something isn't just saying "Nuh HUH"  every time you're faced with a fact you don't like. 

"

Quote

 

Yes, you gave this horrible example... as what they did is nothing like carpet bombing a neighborhood. This was a targetted strike against members of Hezbollah. 

What you want and advocate for is a full scale war, that would result in actual bombing of buildings killing far more innocent civilians. 

Lets see... what is more precise? Lets send in jets to drop 2,000 pound bombs leveling buildings and military infrastructure resulting in thousands of civilian deaths ongoing deaths... 

OR

Lets put very small bombs in the literal hands of the enemy combatants being targetted and blow them up... resulting in some much smaller collateral damage to civilians and even far fewer deaths of any civilians. 

Meanwhile, you are over here comparing that to carpet bombing. 

 

I had no idea you were this stupid. I didn't compare anything to anything. What I said is that any attack has to limit the possibility of injury to civilians. You indicated that you felt that any attack That killed civilians was fine. I pointed out that that's not true, that it has to be limited and targeted

And of course you know I'm right so you're trying to twist the argument. Pathetic

And there is nothing targeted about randomly sewing thousands of bombs around a civilian population at a time of peace and blowing them up. That couldn't be less targeted

Quote

They were not targeting civilians. They were targeting Hezbollah. 

Hezbollah runs hospitals. Hezbollah runs fire departments and other Civic services. A significant and large portion of the Hezbollah organization has nothing to do with military or combat at all. So they absolutely were targeting civilians as well and in fact did injure a number of them directly. We're not talking about people who were injured when someone else's pager went off, we're talking about people who are injured or killed when the pager that was given to them which was filled with explosives by the Israelis presumably blew up

That is by definition targeting civilians

And as I have said and you continue to ignore you cannot be certain of what these people are doing when you blow them up. If they're driving a truck that truck could plow into a group of people and kill civilians

Quote

What is this, some kind of voodoo logic? You are here clearly advocating that they must declare war instead of doing this targeted strike. You just did again, right now. 

Did you suddenly become a leftist when I wasn't looking? Why do you feel the need to lie to try and make your argument. I didn't advocate for anything. I said if you are going to Wage of war then declare war. If you are going to target civilian populations you need to declare war, you cannot just blow people up at random because you feel like it.

If you don't want to declare war then don't target and kill civillians.  And they did so it's one or the other.

If you're fighting a war call it a war. You sound like Putin, "Oh it's not really a war".  

 

Quote

They were not targeting civilians. They were targeting Hezbollah. 

Much of Hezbollah is civilian and has absolutely nothing to do with military or paramilitary actions, Hezbollah provides a significant amount of civil infrastructure inside Lebanon. They run hospitals they run fire departments they run other Civic services

 

Quote

You are on here balking at calling a terrorist organization a terrorist organization, trying to claim these are civilians. If you don't want to be accused of defending them... don't defend them. 

Saying that a civilian healthcare worker is a civilian is not defending anyone. Are you telling me that you are advocating for blowing up children and healthcare workers? That anyone who disagrees with blowing up children and healthcare workers is somehow supporting a terrorist organization? Get your head out of your ass you loser

 

Quote

Well, right now, you are not proving to be much better. 

Oh look, the guy who's supporting blowing up children is trying to take the moral High Ground. How amusing

Quote

Is this the part where you tell me you are not advocating for war over a targeted strike again?

Is this the part where you lie about me advocating for anything and try to explain how targeting children is a good thing again

 

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Barely hurting some civilians while seriously harming the terrorist thugs of Hezbollah is a clear win. 

Barely hurting? They're dead. Civilian workers and children are dead. They "barely hurt" them to death. You're trying to claim that killing children and healthcare workers is a victory?

 

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You are the one saying instead of some small explosions causing some minimal harm to civilians Israel should be dropping 2,000 pound bombs all over Lebanon in a full scale war killing a lot more innocent people. 

We both know that's a lie. And it's a lie that you feel the need to tell because you know you're in the wrong. They literally put thousands of pounds worth of bombs all over Lebanon and blew them up.

And according to you if they did drop 2,000 lb bombs all over Lebanon as long as they hit a few Hezbollah it was totally worth it no matter how many civilians they killed
 

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You want more people dead and suffering. I want less. 

You're happy to see any number of children and civilians dead as long as you think you can kill a couple of Hezbollah and let's not pretend differently. That's your entire argument here. You just don't want Israel to be responsible for it by declaring a war and having to live within the rules of it

[-TSS-]

I'm not commenting on the moral side of this issue but it must be admitted that Mossad vs Hezbollah it is 10-0. Completely different levels of league.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, -TSS- said:

I'm not commenting on the moral side of this issue but it must be admitted that Mossad vs Hezbollah it is 10-0. Completely different levels of league.

From that perspective it actually even gets better. Originally people thought that they intercepted an order of pagers. They did not. They heard one of the Hezbollah leaders mentioning that cell phones can be hacked so they should move to pagers

So they set up an entirely separate pager company, Actually sold pagers to other people and somehow managed to win the contract to supply Hezbollah  and all of its various organizations with pagers. Then as they bought pagers they gave them the 'splodey ones to issue.  

Like honestly they actually set up an Acme pager company to do this. It is insanely complicated, it is  Insanely brilliant that they were able to pull it off And this makes 4D chess look like checkers.

So setting aside the morality yeah sure, this is probably one of the greatest long game swing for the fences and hit Intelligence operations in history

[Army Guy]

22 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

You’re good with killing babies?

I'm not a terrorist, so my answer is no...but you seemed concerned about how terrorist are treated, my question is why would you be concerned about people capable of killing women and children, and in this case infants...do you think they should be shown mercy...would you show them mercy if it was your child or infant they killed in cold blood...

[Army Guy]

Just a question....Israelis intelligence finds out that the terrorist are in the market for pagers....it sets up a dummy company even sells pagers to regular civilians....we are assuming they are selling bomb pagers to everyone....i think they have a great idea who is who terrorist or not they been tracking them for years.... But intelligence knows the terrorist group and who is doing the ordering...who are ordering these pagers... they load these ones with explosives...while the others going out to joe blow gets a perfectly good pager no explosive...

One of the questions that has been asked some of these pagers got issued to regular people....really Terrorist are giving out pagers to non terrorist...why would they do that ? why in today's world would anyone want a pager, vice a cell phone, if you were not doing anything shady...And if you were working for the bad guys why does that not make them a target?

Edited September 21, 2024 by Army Guy

[Rebound]

On 9/20/2024 at 2:22 AM, CdnFox said:

My challenge is that anyone can make a case for anything.  Look at some of the woke arguments here - they beggar logic but still these people believe them like gospel. 

That's why i feel there has to be rules and not just opinions. And to me knowingly blowing up civvies who were not just in the way between you and your target is over the line in an undeclared conflict.  You would see different rules and fair enough. 

Agreed but this isn't a war. If they want to fight a war then declare it. Say out loud that this is a war and here's our terms of surrender that we would accept from you and hostilities and combat operations will commence immediately let all be warned.

Then everyone can fight with clear rules and understandings of international law and the rules of war. And as we know that may very well mean death of civilians. But now everyone is aware of what's happening and what they can expect.

 

The people who were injured and died were the targets. It's not like they were shooting at John and hit jack. They intended for anybody who received one of these pagers to be injured and killed. Many were civilians. This is entirely different than a situation where a military target is shot at and civilians that just happened to be in the area get hit. These pagers were tampered with knowing that some would be given to civilians and that those civilians would be targeted when the pagers exploded.

 

Don't get me wrong. I find it every bit as hilarious as the next guy that Israel has basically gone around blowing the balls off of hezbollah militant cowards. And if that was the only people that could be hurt I would probably be singing a different tune. I just cannot abide civilians being killed in this fashion.

Terrorists do not follow the rules of war, period.  
 

The Geneva Convention says they combatants must wear uniforms. They must not use civilian or medical facilities as military bases.  They must not target civilians.  Terrorists deliberately violate all of these rules.  

[CdnFox]

13 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Terrorists do not follow the rules of war, period.  

 

No one said they did.  But we do.  Our side follows them. 

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The Geneva Convention says they combatants must wear uniforms. They must not use civilian or medical facilities as military bases.  They must not target civilians.  Terrorists deliberately violate all of these rules.  

Sure. Did you have a point? I mean thieves steal things which is against the law does that mean that we should all start stealing things?

There are rules. We follow them. And we follow them for a good reason. If others don't we punish them but it doesn't mean we don't follow the law

[Rebound]

11 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Just a question....Israelis intelligence finds out that the terrorist are in the market for pagers....it sets up a dummy company even sells pagers to regular civilians....we are assuming they are selling bomb pagers to everyone....i think they have a great idea who is who terrorist or not they been tracking them for years.... But intelligence knows the terrorist group and who is doing the ordering...who are ordering these pagers... they load these ones with explosives...while the others going out to joe blow gets a perfectly good pager no explosive...

One of the questions that has been asked some of these pagers got issued to regular people....really Terrorist are giving out pagers to non terrorist...why would they do that ? why in today's world would anyone want a pager, vice a cell phone, if you were not doing anything shady...And if you were working for the bad guys why does that not make them a target?

Here is one reason: The terrorists are 100% civilians. Assuming you were in the Army, then you know all about the uniform. It’s a violation of the Geneva Convention for a combatant to identify or dress as a civilian. 
 

Second is they ordered 1,000 pagers and one of the terrorists steals a few or they have some extras and give them or sell them.  

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

Here is one reason: The terrorists are 100% civilians. Assuming you were in the Army, then you know all about the uniform. It’s a violation of the Geneva Convention for a combatant to identify or dress as a civilian. 

No, this isn't like a normal terrorist group.  This is a recognized political party that's responsible for a lot of civil services in some areas and it's military forces are actually organized and structured/  They commit acts of terrorism but they are a standing military designed and intended to fight front line battles, not just sneak around and blow people up or the like. 

Again tho, i don't see how that would dictate our actions?

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

Second is they ordered 1,000 pagers and one of the terrorists steals a few or they have some extras and give them or sell them.  

Well it was apparently over 2000 but same diff i guess. 

But the important thing to remember is that they won't have given them to just their combat forces. LIke i said they also run hospitals and fire departments and such who would also use pagers (ours here do as well for various reasons).  

It's not like hezbolla is only a military force, they're an 'unelected' party that is like a quazi gov't within the structure of the actual gov't.  Truth is not everyone in lebanon is happy about that and it causes much friction. 

I strongly suspect israel would have done more damage just threatening war if hezbolla wasn't dismantled.  A lot of other groups including the actual gov't have zero interest in a conflict and don't like how hezbolla just sort of 'assumes' power

So at any rate, there's no doubt civvies got handed pagers and we know some medical people were among the ones killed.   This is why i say it's not as 'targeted' as it first seems 

[CITIZEN_2015]

Israel did a good job with Hezbollah. But Hezbollah is only a leg of an Octopus'. They must target Islamic Republic leaders and military now which is the head of that evil Octopus.